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Thread: [Cataclysm] Death Knight Tanking: Satorri's Guide to the Bloody Future

  1. #61
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    My most depressing find is that my rune strike hasnt actually got that lovely 'dodge,parry,or in blood presence' update yet -_-.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanzer View Post
    I just feel as if we went from one extreme to the other. I can understand not wanting us to have to use every GCD in order to maintain our max potential, but I don't like sitting around waiting either. Needs more of a happy medium. The faster regen rate and rune strike fix might solve my current problems however, we'll find out when they are implemented.
    When I tanked HoR yesterday I never had that wait issue much, really.
    On average I'd say I had maybe 2-3 free GCDs on a trashgroup in the spirit room, and 1~2 of those were because of spamming the RS button but not realizing it's not lit up.

    So far my only "complaint" is that the RS-in-BP change did not get applied, forcing me to spam DC to proc Runes. It worked once I adapted to that, but it's a bit... inconvenient. Could rather bump RS to 30-35 RP then and make it always spammable. Didn't they bump it to 30 on the beta, actually? Sounds fine to me.

    But yeah, love the new system. The unpredictability is quite fun after a bit, lots of reflexes and reacting to it. Proactive let-something-hang thinking helped with picking up adds, too.


    Advice:
    If anyone struggles with the new system, try to force yourself to expend all your RP, constantly. You'll be amazed how many runes you have to use all of a sudden.
    SQUEAK.
    --(The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

  3. #63
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    For Unholy, ScS is now a 1 Unholy rune cost, meaning they break FU pairs very easily. Festering Strike pairs well with that to allow them to use Unholy runes on ScS and fill BF pairs instead.

    Don't assume, though, that it is only useful for Unholy. Extending disease duration may have situational applications. I've been playing with it as Blood, but with RunEmp and all it rarely feels like a good fit in all but matters of utility.
    at the moment im finding that half of the time when i festering strike it is refreshing my diseases with the 8 sec extra duration on the end, im assuming this is a bug because i had diseases with a 1.30ish duration yesterday while toying with the dummies and that could jsut lead to abuuuuse in pvp / long fights, imagine jsut spending 30 seconds boosting disease duration up then being able to ignore them and just mash anything you want.

  4. #64
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    It's worth noting that Death Strike does its heal now regardless of the presence of diseases on the target. So there are going to be scenarios where a diseaseless setup will perform better, particularly if you already have someone that can apply an attack speed debuff (Earth Shock, Waylay). Threat is probably going to be pretty close, depending on your health pool and amount of mastery. With Glyph of DRW propping it up, it probably wouldn't matter in the slightest.

    Depending on how your rune refreshes go, you might find yourself with a frost floating around after using Bone Shield, so you could always toss in the occasional Icy Touch. Unless something changes with disease use, and they did deliberately change Death Strike to not scale off diseases, I suspect in Cataclysm, you'll just be using Outbreak on cooldown and not worrying about full disease uptime.

    I would probably chalk it as a playstyle choice rather than a hard and fast rule either way. It buys you some talent points out of Epidemic, but that's not going to do much for you. Besides, it's easy enough to adjust on the fly as needed. Have a spot where you aren't taking a lot of damage, IT/PS; not getting to use death runes on Heart Strike, let your diseases fall off.

  5. #65
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    Anyone have any thoughts yet on the DPS of Blood Parasite vs Blood Caked Blade?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    Anyone have any thoughts yet on the DPS of Blood Parasite vs Blood Caked Blade?
    Kinda hard to compare those, isn't it? I thought Blood Parasite was mainly a survival tool (i.e., healing), but I guess it would also be interesting to know how much damage the little buggers do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Leave shields to the sissy tanks who need something to hide behind. Death Knights take it full in the face!
    | Unforgiven | Blood DK tank: Urikslargda |

  7. #67
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    On beta diseases spread via pest does reduced damage, dont know if it is like that on live.
    I am rather disappointed at the lack of talents which buff blood strike in the blood tree.
    Heart strike cleave is VERY bad for CC.

  8. #68
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    Spell Alerts
    The release notes state: "Spell Alerts have been added to notify players when procs on select spells and abilities occur. A visual notification will display around the character and the activated ability will be highlighted on the action bar."

    I'm really happy about Blizzard incorporating their own built-in version of Power Auras, but so far it seems rather hit or miss, so to speak. This might be mostly an issue of documentation, but it seems that "select spells" really means "a few spells".

    I know Frost DKs got some of these, but Blood DKs got left out of the fun entirely it seems.

    When Crimson Scourge procs your free Blood Boil, you get a buff called Blood Swarm that lasts for 10 seconds. You have to use BB during that buff, but you don't get a spell alert for it. You do not get a display around the character, nor does the BB icon light up to show that you can now cast it for free. The Blood Swarm icon isn't very easy to spot and at 10 seconds it goes away very quickly.

    Until this gets a fix, you can work around the bug by using the Power Auras addon to throw up a display around your toon while Blood Swarm is up.

    Off-topic a bit here, the Druid passive Omen of Clarity/Clearcasting and the Feral Druid talent Berserk get much better treatment under Spell Alerts, but it's still inconsistent. Clearcasting is a familiar mechanic for Druids, so it's a natural for this. The Berserk tooltip states: "Your Lacerate periodic damage has a 30% chance to refresh the cooldown of your Mangle (Bear) ability and make it cost no rage. " Problem is, both of these only work halfway: Clearcasting displays around the character but does not highlight which spells/attacks are now free to cast (maybe because there are too many options?); likewise, the Berserk/Lacerate proc very nicely lights up your Mangle icon so you know when to use it, but there is no corresponding display around the character like there is for Clearcasting. Still, it's a lot better than failing to show any alert at all for Blood Swarm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Leave shields to the sissy tanks who need something to hide behind. Death Knights take it full in the face!
    | Unforgiven | Blood DK tank: Urikslargda |

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unix View Post
    On beta diseases spread via pest does reduced damage, dont know if it is like that on live.
    Wow, if so then there could be an additional reason to use Pestilence, which right now seems very disappointing after it lost the ability to refresh the diseases on your primary target. Reading about that change is one thing; I was very sad to see it in practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unix View Post
    I am rather disappointed at the lack of talents which buff blood strike in the blood tree.
    Heart strike cleave is VERY bad for CC.
    Yeah, I think it's totally idiotic (and counter-intuitive) that our single-target attack should be so much weaker than our cleave, especially if the cleave has a fairly big area it can hit. Just doesn't make much sense, you know? Isn't having the cleave effect in and of itself enough encouragement for people to want HS?

    Maybe Blizz just enjoys forcing tanks to position mobs very carefully to avoid breaking CC. Grr.
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Leave shields to the sissy tanks who need something to hide behind. Death Knights take it full in the face!
    | Unforgiven | Blood DK tank: Urikslargda |

  10. #70
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    excellent post satorri!

    I honestly wish you could make a guide for every class / spec combo! My hats off to you good sir!

    One thing I think you should add though. You didn't include one my favorite, and life saving, death knight combos! Raise dead and Death pact!

    (p.s. if anyone know of a retribution paladin guide that is off equal quality to this guide. let me know!)

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    What kind of DPS does the blood parasite do? Does it give you additional threat?
    If we take healing out of the equation.. which is better? Blood Caked Blade or Blood Parasite?
    Good question. I have not gauged Parasite dps yet, though I would *suspect* it would be slightly less than BCB, but I am totally just guessing. =) I'll let you know when I figure out the worms better on live, in a raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roblina View Post
    I'm about to change my spec to make sure I get as much threat as I can, 3/3 BCB for a start, and then will reforge some of my gear including my Shadowmourne (that should already be helping my threat enough :<). My question is, what stat would be recomended to reforge too, obviously hit/exp/haste/crit can add threat, but the other possibility is even more avoidance for these vital RS procs. I'm already at 27%d, 20%p unbuffed however so dr's are pretty steep.
    Hit and Exp soft cap are great for ensuring reliable threat, and since you cannot reforge Str, that is a smart place to start. If you want a stat beyond that, I would play around with Haste a bit as this will speed up your rune CDs. Avoidance is not a bad idea for getting you hybrid threat/survival values, depending on the fight (more swings, more avoids, more procs), but I'm not sure of how it will compare yet value-wise with getting, say, haste. I can say that you are not getting steep diminishing return effects. Note: diminishing returns do not reduce the value of the stat, they simply reduce the speed at which you are approaching 100% so that the stat does not accelerate. Don't let that make you think you are suddenly getting less value from avoidance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gendrake View Post
    So for Blood Shield we can waste applications? Wasn't there talk of it being additive so that you can't waste a shield or something like that? Oh well, guess that would have made it a bit too good.
    I wish it were so, but it is not. That said, they have incorporated a mechanic into other shields and I assume it applies to Blood Shield as well, though I haven't been able to pin it with parses yet.

    Basically, if you have a second application of the shield while there is another up, it will *not* overwrite it if the existing shield is bigger, it will refresh the existing shield. It should have a very small benefit for us since our DS heals won't be *that* diverse, but should the timing be off a little, you will not lose shield value by overwriting with a smaller shield.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    What do you all think of this opening rotation for AoE?
    Both seem very logical for opening volleys. One thing to keep in mind and work with is getting away from rune-oriented rotation thinking. Once you have runes sleeping waiting for their CD to start you can get definite value from RunEmp procs. If RS procs early on, use it as soon as you have sleeper runes unless your rushing to get Scarlet Fever up, or another rune sleeping for a chance to refresh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    Also, how did you unholy tanks get yourselves in the mindset to keep bone shield going all the time? I forgot like crazy.
    It is one of the reasons I considered Unholy tanking to take a measure more skill. It was a lot of juggling. It is a little less of a priority for Blood, but definitely a value when survival matters. I highly recommend making an indicator using Power Auras or the like to show you: when Bone Shield is up, when it is off CD, and when you can actually apply it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meagree View Post
    I've noticed that Improved Death Strike (supposed to add 45% healing to Death Strike) doesn't add any healing, at least not on the "10% of your health as minimum" - can anyone confirm that this is a bug, and not a tooltip error? (It'd be quite a shame if it was only intended to give 45% damage, not healing).
    Do you have any parses to confirm this, I have not seen it yet. Would need to see DS healing for 10% of your health and not more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meagree View Post
    I'd also like to know if anyone knows if there's a cap on how much Blood Shield can absorb. I checked WoL and the highest absorb I ever got out of it was around 16,000, while the highest heal I got from Death Strike was over 50,000.

    EDIT: My Mastery rating is 529, which brings the Death Strike to Blood Shield conversion up to 122%.
    There is no cap currently. 529 rating should only bump you to 78.8% of your heal. And there are a few things to consider: Absorbs won't always happen all at once depending on what it soaks and when. The combat log, last I checked, was still a little iffy on correctly identifying what was doing the absorbing. It is also possible that the Blood Shield is not receiving certain buffs or compound buffs. In other words, it may not be getting the fully buffed DS heal, only the pre-raid buffed value. It may not be getting the raid buff to its shield value. It may be any combination of the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanzer View Post
    I just feel as if we went from one extreme to the other. I can understand not wanting us to have to use every GCD in order to maintain our max potential, but I don't like sitting around waiting either. Needs more of a happy medium. The faster regen rate and rune strike fix might solve my current problems however, we'll find out when they are implemented.
    There are a few things here. The system plays a little smoother when you have haste in the equation as DPSers do. You can improve on the pace, where tanks don't have that liberty, yet. In the current beta design, Imp Blood Pres gives us a speed up to rune CD time. This will help with that.

    The key element of the system that is an improvement is where queued runes are not wasting. It is a tricky balance they backed themselves into to make it so that you aren't always feeling like you're waiting, but sometimes that is ok. Having room to do other things is good when there will be other things to do, even if they are not in the current situation. I would expect this to become more meaningful in Clysm designs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auratus View Post
    since Defense is being removed as a stat, and while I agree that this makes sense, it is contradictory to the Improved Blood Presence talent, which "reduced the chance that you will be critically hit".

    So, how exactly does this work now?
    The point is that we used to have to dedicate itemization to reduce our chance to be crit. It wasn't really something any tank would *not* do as it opened you up to unpleasant damage spikes.

    All tanks now do the same things bears used to do, only. To be a tank we take a talent that reduces our chance to be crit like we would take any other fundamental tank buff. All tanks do it and it is what sets apart from a Fury Warrior with some dodge and parry (well, among other things, but it is a big one).

    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    Anyone have any thoughts yet on the DPS of Blood Parasite vs Blood Caked Blade?
    That is an item on my to-do list. BCB is easy, but the new parasites will need to be gauged. I would guess that BCB will be a slightly higher DPS value, but we shall see. You can be sure though that the Parasite will not likely help your *threat* only your damage, whereas BCB will definitely help your threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unix View Post
    On beta diseases spread via pest does reduced damage, dont know if it is like that on live.
    I am rather disappointed at the lack of talents which buff blood strike in the blood tree.
    Heart strike cleave is VERY bad for CC.
    The solution to this is strong meta tanks skills more readily than the buffing of BS. Try pulling targets away from the CC'd targets, you'll find that easier, and it should be in your awareness as a tank always.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urythmic View Post
    I'm really happy about Blizzard incorporating their own built-in version of Power Auras, but so far it seems rather hit or miss, so to speak. This might be mostly an issue of documentation, but it seems that "select spells" really means "a few spells".
    These only apply to items that are random procs from other abilities. So, if I have a chance to get a free/instant Pyroblast, I get a shiny default spell warning. The key difference is that Crimson Scourge is 95% predictable to anyone who knows how the ability works.

    The default UI will not likely ever show you all the fun stuff Power Auras can be configured to track, that's not its design goal. It is also why addons will always exist. =)

    Quote Originally Posted by Urythmic View Post
    Yeah, I think it's totally idiotic (and counter-intuitive) that our single-target attack should be so much weaker than our cleave, especially if the cleave has a fairly big area it can hit.
    BS is not Crusader Strike to HS's HotR. HS is intended to replace BS for Blood. Refer to my above about placement over finding a use for BS. There are no current situations I know of that cannot be better handled by *not* tanking things on top of the sheep.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbunny View Post
    I honestly wish you could make a guide for every class / spec combo! My hats off to you good sir!
    Be careful what you wish for, and come Cataclysm remember the name "Minerva Project."

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbunny View Post
    One thing I think you should add though. You didn't include one my favorite, and life saving, death knight combos! Raise dead and Death pact!
    That I usually place in the Advance Skills section (nowhere near done yet) because of the intricacies of its use. That said, now that ghouls do not require reagents, it may deserve a place in the basic skills section.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbunny View Post
    (p.s. if anyone know of a retribution paladin guide that is off equal quality to this guide. let me know!)
    Lore himself made a basic guide (video I believe) to Retribution in 4.0.1. That said, I am abashed to say I do not know where to find it. Likely check his YouTube channel?
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  12. #72
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    Satorri.. have I mentioned lately how much you rock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post

    Good question. I have not gauged Parasite dps yet, though I would *suspect* it would be slightly less than BCB, but I am totally just guessing. =) I'll let you know when I figure out the worms better on live, in a raid.
    Okay, thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post

    Both seem very logical for opening volleys. One thing to keep in mind and work with is getting away from rune-oriented rotation thinking. Once you have runes sleeping waiting for their CD to start you can get definite value from RunEmp procs. If RS procs early on, use it as soon as you have sleeper runes unless your rushing to get Scarlet Fever up, or another rune sleeping for a chance to refresh.
    I do currently feel like I'm scrambling on AoE pulls. Now, I do understand that this isn't necessarily my fault.. and this is all supposed to be changing in Cataclysm.. but currently it's a mad rush to maintain aggro on the group with some Blood Boil spam. If I stop to Rune Strike my target.. the DPS rips off one of the adds and then I have to taunt it or spend time on it.

    Another problem I had was in a heroic HoR (which was a successful run with only one wipe, yay!).

    I throw down a D&D and wait for a primary target to get into range (IE: the priest or the mage) and by the time they get to me, so I can do a Plague Strike->Pestilence->Blood Boil.. the other targets have wandered off, despite my D&D, to hit the DPS/healer. If I open up on one target.. I still have to wait a bit for everything to get into range for Pestilence and/or Blood Boil (I took the range increase glyph for Blood Boil.. wonder if I should for Pestilence too).

    I know the intention is to kill AoE tanking.. but it feels really excessive. I really want to have a high threat ability (IE: Howling Blast all talented out) that can jumpstart you right from the beginning.. instead of having to have all this build up. Maybe the rotation should be: D&D, BB, IT, PS, Pestilence, Blood Tap, BB.

    The thing I loved so much about dual wield tanking was Howling Blast being able to apply Frost Fever to everything. That removes soooo much.

    Honestly, the ONLY reason I have Plague Strike in my rotation is to fuel an extra 10% damage from Heart Strike and to generate free Blood Boils. I wonder if it's really worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post

    There are a few things here. The system plays a little smoother when you have haste in the equation as DPSers do.
    How much haste does it take for it to feel smoother? Is there a rune recharge cap on haste? What's the haste-to-percentage ratio?

    .

    Once again.. you rock Satorri

  13. #73
    I have yet to see the parses but - judging just by observation - our mastery is quite weak, bordering uselessness. In ICC 25 today my DS heals ended up being quite low, rarely exceeding the default 10% (overhealing mostly at that) and blood shield was usually consumed by the very next hit.

    In comparison the 30% blocks pallies and warriors get look a lot more useful.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unix View Post

    On beta diseases spread via pest does reduced damage, dont know if it is like that on live.
    I just tested this at the dummies and it is in live.

  15. #75
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    I've revised my thoughts on the AoE rotation...

    D&D - unholy
    blood boil - blood
    icy touch - frost
    pestilence - blood
    blood tap
    blood boil - death
    death strike - frost and unholy

    This should end 1-2 seconds before the initial unholy rune is ready (but timing may be off depending on when you start your D&D on the pull).

    The death strike is to counteract DPS that actually focuses on your target.

    [EDIT: On further thought.. this does seem like a real good starting rotation (as I mentioned I'm not a theory crafter so maybe I'm going way off here). That upcoming frost and unholy should be put into a death strike and then you pump out 7 heart strikes. That SHOULD be enough to keep aggro.. right? RIGHT? Pumping out Rune Strikes should help keep things slow enough that the heart strikes feel rhythmic.]

    [EDIT 2: Alright, just did a heroic with this new rotation and two thoughts...

    1) It feels sooooo much better.

    2) Death runes on the next pull screw things up, but you can just spam more blood boils or keep the same rotation or just ignore the blood tap / death strike ending.]
    Last edited by Felycitas; 10-14-2010 at 09:21 PM.

  16. #76
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    So yeah.. I just made my dual wield spec and I'm.. wow.. absolutely floored by the performance.

    At least in comparison to pre-4.0.1 DPS.

    No glyphs, gear still in shambles with all my haste (I had enough armor penetration from gear (no trinkets or gems) to get to 50%), using Ghoulslicers (233 weapons).. and I can hit 8k+ DPS on multi-pack sets (D&D + 4x Howling Blast) and I can easily hit 6k single target without even trying properly.

    I'm not complaining anymore about losing my blood DPS

    Also, it looks like.. 460 haste rating (14.03%) is shaving off just under 2 seconds from my rune recharge.

    So now I'm REALLY curious how haste affects DPS with regards to rune recharging.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    How much haste does it take for it to feel smoother? Is there a rune recharge cap on haste? What's the haste-to-percentage ratio?
    Last I checked 1% haste is 1% off the CD so, 0.1 sec per 1% haste. The natural haste capacity you can reach puts that into relief.

    As far as where it feels smoother is a matter for discussion. Remember, RunEmp plays a big part, so more RS (and DC right now) will make it feel smoother. On the beta I was feeling pretty close to fine with things the way they are, even as my avoidance dropped off from leveling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milq View Post
    I have yet to see the parses but - judging just by observation - our mastery is quite weak, bordering uselessness. In ICC 25 today my DS heals ended up being quite low, rarely exceeding the default 10% (overhealing mostly at that) and blood shield was usually consumed by the very next hit.

    In comparison the 30% blocks pallies and warriors get look a lot more useful.
    I would contend that you may not be using your DS as well as you could. I won't argue that the Mastery is not the be-all-end-all, but DS can be a HUGE value right now if you chase damage bursts with it. Blood Shield scales heavily with that value and how well you use DS.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    The point is that we used to have to dedicate itemization to reduce our chance to be crit. It wasn't really something any tank would *not* do as it opened you up to unpleasant damage spikes.

    All tanks now do the same things bears used to do, only. To be a tank we take a talent that reduces our chance to be crit like we would take any other fundamental tank buff. All tanks do it and it is what sets apart from a Fury Warrior with some dodge and parry (well, among other things, but it is a big one).
    I think you might have misunderstood me. I guess my real question is: How is the chance of being critically hit (criticalibility? ) calculated now that defense is off the table?

    If tanks indeed are uncrittable in blood presence/bear form/defensive stance then there would be no point of having a talent for it. But then again, since Improved Blood Presence (and equal talents) actually exists in game, we certainly are crittable

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auratus View Post
    If tanks indeed are uncrittable in blood presence/bear form/defensive stance then there would be no point of having a talent for it.
    You're only 'uncrittable' in those defensive modes if you have the talents. Just like bears used to be. The source you linked doesn't contain the detail that the talents are needed to improve the defensive aspects.

    Much like weapon skills now, defense skill went the way of the dodo. So now everything is calculated as per a level difference basis, rather than having to train up to what your level 'should be.' Being uncrittable means that a mob no more than 3 levels higher (raid bosses) can't crit you with a melee strike.
    "Just because it's not nice doesn't mean it's not miraculous." - T. P.

  20. #80
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    One thing I'd like to discuss is Blizzard's design for the blood dk. We have so many defensive cool downs; how do they plan to balance us against the other three tanks? I've heard rumors thats we're supposed to be the squishiest of the four, and honestly, I'm not sure how anyone could find that appealing! Being "squishy" and "tanking" should never go hand in hand. (the prospect sends a stark chill down my spine)

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