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Thread: [Cataclysm] Death Knight Tanking: Satorri's Guide to the Bloody Future

  1. #21
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    RS only requires a dodge or parry IF you are not in Blood Presence. Or at least that's how it is supposed to be now.

  2. #22
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    Yah, it appears to be requiring the dodge/parry regardless of Presence.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gendrake View Post
    Yah, it appears to be requiring the dodge/parry regardless of Presence.
    Yes, it isn't working how they said it was. Its very annoying too because I can't take advantage of runic empowerment which makes AoE tanking a pain because of runes not coming off cooldown.

  4. #24
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    I'm loving blood even after being forced to change from frost.
    Currently I've been practicing on the lvl 81-82 elites in icecrown and finding that dodge and parry is going to be a lot more useful especially from a threat stand point. Now hear me out on this before you judge. You must dodge/parry before you can use RS, and since RS has a chance to refresh a rune it allows you to use your abilities. So having both more heart strikes and RS's will allow you more threat gen as well as having more runes available to use for DS's and rune taps.
    To test this theory I decide to use heroic CTC and ick's thumb (both of which i had to get out of the bank) and it seemed like i was getting more RS procs and as a result more refreshed runes.

  5. #25
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    wow I have never Blood tanked... But with the information you provided i have already worked out a tree and Rotation.. Plus what glyphs Im going to use... TY Sooooo Much!!!!!

  6. #26
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    Tonight I decided to get some guildies together and run a couple raids to do some testing. We ran Toc10 and voa10. Everything went smoothly for us, well we didnt wipe. Our fury warrior went from 10k dps down to 4-5k, yeah they're crying themselves to sleep tonight lol. Threat was a breeze as long as I was dodging/ parrying and able to RS. If I was getting an unlucky string of taking melee strikes i would death coil to refresh some runes and get some DS's and HS's in. Granted I outgear ToC but it was for testing purposes, hopefully soon I will be able to get some icc testing in.
    The only problems I've had is my addons not working. WTB updated addons soon. I do love the new raid UI which includes the role check, free smoke bombs in multiple colors.


    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-t...e&gn=Marauders
    Last edited by uglie; 10-13-2010 at 12:59 AM. Reason: added currently used spec

  7. #27
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    So tell me the real deal...

    Is dual wield frost tanking feasible (yes I saw you mention an uphill battle with threat) and is blood DPS feasible at all?

    Also, do you feel that any of these talents are going to be changed by the time Cataclysm comes out or are they all pretty polished now?

  8. #28
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    Short answer to first question is frost DW tanking will be just like fury taking for warriors and blood dps will be just like a prot warrior dpsing. So yes either can be done but you will be severely gimping yourself doing either.
    As far as current talents, I'm loving them but with i could reach 85 already to get the rest of my talent points. If talent changes are to come I believe fury will be the first to get hit hard with the buff bat. Other than that I dont believe too many changes will be made til after plenty of people hit 85 either on the cata beta/ptr or cata hits live servers.

  9. #29
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    One more question.

    Why was Festering Strike added?

  10. #30
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    From what I've read it's for unholy dk's only. Personally our disease seem to last forever with with 8 seconds added to diseases from 2 points in epidemic allowing for tons and tons of heart strikes and death strikes, so I have yet to add it to my rotation and probably never will.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    So tell me the real deal...

    Is dual wield frost tanking feasible (yes I saw you mention an uphill battle with threat) and is blood DPS feasible at all?

    Also, do you feel that any of these talents are going to be changed by the time Cataclysm comes out or are they all pretty polished now?
    yeah
    blood dps: no
    frost tank: no
    gone is the days that dks can smudge all the trees.

    2) while the talents may change a touch its pretty much set. get used to what is out there
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
    I'm on a shark

  12. #32
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    By the way I am Satorri's minion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
    I'm on a shark

  13. #33
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    What swam said, if you dislike 2h unholy you can always use 2H frost, which is a viable spec.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by GBF View Post
    Damn, was hoping to see some work on Mastery when I came here.
    The stat section is a work in progress, but I should have something relevant to 4.0.1/3 hopefully within a week. I need to crunch numbers at 80 and I had only been doing it for 85.

    Quote Originally Posted by GBF View Post
    That's really the only thing I'm unsure of - do I reforge away avoidance for a slightly more reliable form of damage reduction? I ask in the context of tanking H LK 25. It's hard to know because I'm not sure how difficult threat will be to maintain, and if the removal of Chill of the Throne will make it so I get hit too rarely to reliably use Death Strike for shields enough to make mastery worth it.
    As far as the threat/survival balance, that is one we'll all have to figure out, since it varies group to group pretty seriously.

    The value between Blood Shield and Avoidance will always be a little sketchy. You will get more Blood Shield absorb % than avoidance % in the exchange, *but* the Blood Shield value has a heavy personal element: it is based on how well and how often you use DS. When I post numbers I'll have a rough estimation that should ballpark it for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by GBF View Post
    Also, is it true that Blood Shield reduces only physical damage? If so, it just became a bit less desirable than I thought it would be. You advocate Death Runes be used on Heart Strike - will we really need the extra threat over a potential shield/heal? Is threat that tight?
    As I mentioned. HS will likely (not confirmed on live yet, needs testing and number crunching) to be superior threat for the rune cost, but like I said above, threat vs survival is a personal concern. HS will almost certainly be superior damage, which still may be something you're interested in. It is all a bit up in the air right now.

    At last check, yes, Blood Shield was only absorbing physical damage.

    Planning on running some heroics and older raids tonight if possible to get a feel for all of this, but my initial guess is that tanking HLK 25 just became significantly easier for Death Knights (between having 4 piece Scourgelord AND either VB or BS for every Soul Reaper and the increase in avoidance, I'd say we're in a good place).[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Swam View Post
    Why exactly is improved blood tap so essential? Is that with the set bonus because then I can see it being amazing. but why take it over say abom might or blood caked blade?
    Substantially more frequent Blood Tap is not just a matter of threat, it is a matter of having any one sort of rune, when you need it, more often. Its CD matches Rune Tap, can open up a rune for Bone Shield re-applications, could give you a BB to reapply Scarlet Fever (depending on whether you took Crimson Scourge or not), it could pair up with another rune (say from RunEmp) to use DS, it could just be another HS (and the RP that comes with it). The point is versatility and availability. The new rune system leaves potential blackout zones and this is a very valuable tool for never being caught without a tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gendrake View Post
    So looks like RS still requires a dodge/parry, did that get changed back in the Cata beta as well?
    Balls, I hadn't changed that because I hadn't been able to check. It hasn't been implemented on the beta yet, last I checked either. This *had* been an unreleased guide in my private stock of work, and I had made those adjustments expecting the change to go in before this ever saw the light of day. /cry

    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    Is dual wield frost tanking feasible (yes I saw you mention an uphill battle with threat) and is blood DPS feasible at all?
    You could dual wield Frost tank in any content that does not strictly require a tank spec. Frost spec does not support tanking CDs or skills. That means that if you try to tank raids you will be crittable and lack a lot of special moves for survival. In short you'll be squishy and take dangerous spikes. It *can* be done, but it would not be a good idea in situations where it matters. You could probably tank heroics if you have a nice tank set.

    Blood DPS will be similarly hurt. You can do it, definitely more easily than a Prot Warrior, but do not expect to compete with DPS trees when all else is equal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    Also, do you feel that any of these talents are going to be changed by the time Cataclysm comes out or are they all pretty polished now?
    They are polished, but I would expect some tweaks. You will not likely see MAJOR changes like total tree rearrangement, but one change already pushing to Beta removes the damage reduction carryover on Imp Blood Pres with an increase in rune recharge speed (which will be a huge value).

    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    Why was Festering Strike added?
    For Unholy, ScS is now a 1 Unholy rune cost, meaning they break FU pairs very easily. Festering Strike pairs well with that to allow them to use Unholy runes on ScS and fill BF pairs instead.

    Don't assume, though, that it is only useful for Unholy. Extending disease duration may have situational applications. I've been playing with it as Blood, but with RunEmp and all it rarely feels like a good fit in all but matters of utility.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  15. #35
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    Well according to the notes its back in the beta build to not requiring dodge/parry anymore but cost 30 RP and can only be used in blood presence now. I guess whatever they were trying to do just didn't work. Imp blood presence is also increasing rune regeneration by 10-20% so looks like they are addressing the near impossibility of always being prepared for any unforeseen situation that might happen. Glad to see that personally, after running chain heroics I was not completely happy with the pace I was forced to go at and with not being able to deal with a constant stream of adds reliably at all like I used to.

    As far as threat generation goes, I really didn't run into any issues. I was hitting over 20k TPS in 5 mans...

  16. #36
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    Well, to be fair, the Beta represents what they are trying to do. Live is just what has been tested and works, for now.

    4.0.3 at the latest, I would guess, will have the final-ish state of RS. I'm going to make a catch-all note at the intro of the first post.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  17. #37
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    Thanks for your thoughts all

  18. #38
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    I am going to work up a more polished version of this for the guide proper, but here is what I'm working on right now for the Avoidance vs Mastery issue:

    My numbers may be a smidge dated, but the rough translation I had last was that the rating shaved from avoidance would work out to be roughly 1% avoidance into 2.5% increase in Blood Shield % (absolute % mind you, not % increase).

    To compare the survival value of Avoidance and Blood Shield, let's consider a simple scenario that should be indicative of rough general value in ICC (at level 80). Average Boss attacks you once every 1.5 sec for 20k damage after armor and % reductions. Let's say you have a base of 45% avoidance, and your DS heals on average about 11k (accounting for avoidance, and non-targeted DS to match optimal damage taken). We'll have a base only value of Blood Shield at 50%, since no level 80 gear has Mastery by default, leaving the average Blood Shield value at 5.5k. If you were to convert 1% avoidance into 2.5% additional Blood Shield % (note: this is the % of the DS heal), you would take 1% more swings and your Blood Shield would absorb 52.5% of the DS heal, or an average value of 5,775.

    For the sake of comparison, let's say you are using DS so as to never waste a shield, and are able to use DS once every 15 sec on average, or 4 times per minute. In reality, this will vary with RunEmp procs, use of other abilities on the FU pairs, etc.

    Using the values above, before avoidance or shields you are taking 40 20k hits per minute or 13.3k dps. At 45% avoidance and 4 50% Blood Shields per minute, you are taking 6.97k dps. If you exchange 1% avoidance for 4 52.5% Blood Shields per minute, you will now take 7.08k dps. The exchange would be small, but definitely in favor of Avoidance in the long average. Locally, the change in effect would shift between about half a hit per minute completely failing to hit and each of the 4 Blood Shields reducing their soaked hits by an extra 275 damage.

    For perspective, the old GCD capped version would let you DS on average twice every 10 sec at most, if you were not using PS/IT to keep diseases up. Let's round that down to 3 per 20 sec to allow for disease application without Glyph of Disease. That would be 9 DS per minute. If you were capable of this now, that would result in the following numbers from the above example:
    45% avoidance + 50% Blood Shields = 6.51k dps taken
    44% avoidance + 52.5% Blood Shields = 6.60k dps taken

    Another variation on the scenario to see if we can illustrate the region of relationship. Let's say you have 60% avoidance and still got those best plausible of 9 DS per minute:
    60% avoidance + 50% Blood Shields = 3.84k dps taken
    59% avoidance + 52.5% Blood Shields = 4.60k dps taken

    So, the higher your avoidance value (and I would not expect you to have less than 45% going into ICC), the worse the trade off becomes. I'm going to check the conversion, it may be less fair, but with the lack of Chill of the Thrown, this may not ever be a trade you really want to make, or at least a trade from random chance to hoping for optimal user placement for a parity in value.

    Take all this with a grain of sand, this is off the top napkin math and will need proper cross-checking. I post it though because I'd like to get any possible feedback before I start posting something more concrete in my guide. If there is something I am missing it would be helpful to have it pointed out. =)


    Addendum:
    Thought of another way to push this in the favor of Mastery. The maximum value you could get from DS would be 3 hits in 4.5 sec. This would require a streak without avoidance. Let's take the 45% avoid value and try DS heals for 18k (30% of 60k dmg). Now the 50% Blood Shield will be for 9k and the 52.5% Blood Shield will be for 9,450. So, *if* you can get 9 DS per minute (once per 6.67 sec), and always got them off following a 3-hit string (on average only 2.4 hits should land with 45% avoidance in 6.7 sec windows), then you would see the following value:
    45% avoidance and 50% Blood Shield = 5.98k dps taken
    44% avoidance and 52.5% Blood Shield = 6.05 dps taken

    The best case I can come up with that is remotely plausible to see from an adequately geared tank in this scenario is still in the favor of avoidance.
    Last edited by Satorri; 10-13-2010 at 12:25 PM.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  19. #39
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    Now that I'm finally looking at the talents...

    Yeah, I agree that blood DPS is not possible unless you want to severely gimp yourself.

    I was looking mostly for the self-healing aspect as I really loved that about blood, but the only real DPS talent you can get into is bladed armor unless you go full blood and there's not a lot appealing in blood for DPS.

    I made a test spec and as I'm adding talents I get the sense that the spec is better suited for PvP than PvE DPS.

  20. #40
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    Wow, really great stuff here! Thanks so much for the guide.

    I guess this is already planned for one of your *coming soon* sections, but you may want to mention reforging other excess stats into mastery for the extra shield. When I first purchased the Mastery spell last night, it gave me a base of 8 points to start with (despite none of my T10 gear having mastery on it). I was already a bit over cap on hit and new talents put me over cap on expertise, so I reforged some hit, some expertise, and some crit on my weapon into mastery. This brought my mastery up to 10, which pushed Blood Shield up to 62% or so. Not bad for old Wrath gear considering I didn't sacrifice any avoidance and only a little threat.
    Last edited by Urythmic; 10-13-2010 at 03:17 PM. Reason: typo
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Leave shields to the sissy tanks who need something to hide behind. Death Knights take it full in the face!
    | Unforgiven | Blood DK tank: Urikslargda |

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