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Thread: [Cataclysm] Death Knight Tanking: Satorri's Guide to the Bloody Future

  1. #341
    Still cant seem to figure out the deal with DRW is it a viable CD that will actually help you out in a pinch? I tested a spec with it and without it in raids and I cant see it making a difference what views do other people have?

    There are many uses I'm sure, but I use it a lot when we have aggro'd large mobs of 5-8 count to help with not only my threat but also my Parry. I also pop Vial of Stolen Memories to buff my dodge as well and it seems a good combo for those types of situations. Having the Runic Power needed for this is an after thought after a few seconds go by during the encounter, it pools very easy and during these situations you are doing more HS than RS so it comes easy. Don't forget that during boss fights the + 20% Parry is nothing to laugh at either and after your threat lead is high enough it's very easy to pool RP for a quick DRW along with adding your BS back and maybe another defensive CD for some relief on your healers, maybe during a re-positioning phase on a boss encounter where your healers are constantly having to dodge something.

    Another addon I would suggest is DocsDebugRunes, it is very good at tracking everything a DK has to track and right out of the box requires very little configuration to work well.
    Last edited by Michultradk; 03-18-2011 at 08:00 AM. Reason: Added quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    Best bet also is find 2-3 healers you know to q with and tell them to forget everyone else and just keep you alive.

  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashe View Post

    One last thought on Stoneskin Gargoyle vs Stoneshattering: The extra parry from Stoneshattering does not factor in to parry's diminishing returns. Therefore, you should have as close to exactly 4% more parry than dodge as you can get if you elect to go with Stoneshattering. I firmly believe that you should use Gargoyle if you are prioritizing mastery at all as the extra 2% of stamina will result in Death Strike's base heal going up by 0.58% and the shield going up as well.
    TY I was wondering about that too.

    Currently I carry Gargoyle on my main weapon, and have Back-ups with Sword Shattering and Spell Shattering for situational fights.
    "It's always the Healer's fault; unless it's the Tanks fault, just ask the DPS'er in purples doing 5k!"

  3. #343
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    Is DRW important?

    Short answer: YES!

    You should have DRW glyphed, of course. It then becomes both a great defensive CD and threat generator. Most of the time you won't need the extra threat, but occasionally it helps.

  4. #344
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    Any particular reason you need to glyph it if your not having threat issues? Wouldnt that be like gemming HR if your already capped? abit pointless when you could use the glyph for something that might help you elsewhere? And can you actually say its an ability that will defffinatly save your life if needed considering its basically a luck based cd

  5. #345
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    Even if you aren't having threat issues overall, there are still times when the extra burst is important: aggro resets, backpulls, etc. Most DKs do not find a lot of competition among the major glyphs, so finding a spot for DRW is not a problem. DRW, Vampiric Blood, and Rune Tap are my three. What else would you use in its place? AMS glyph is only important if you are having problems timing it (DBM takes care of that); Bone Shield glyph only matters if you are not using one of the movement-buff enchants on your boots (I use Lavawalker); Blood Boil and Pestilence glyphs are as likely to screw up your CC as they are to help; Strangulate and Death Grip glyphs have some utility but nothing indispensible.

    No, I'll keep my DRW glyph. It may not be needed often, but on those occasions it is golden.
    Last edited by DarklingThrush; 03-22-2011 at 04:40 AM.

  6. #346
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    Mastery vs. Avoidance

    I have read so many threads and mind-froze my own brain trying to decypher pages of complex mathematics, but there does not seem to be any clear consensus on this debate. I have gotten the impression that the change to stacking Blood Shields has tipped the scales a bit towards mastery, so earlier tonight I decided to give it a go. I did not scrap all my avoidance, but switched my JC-special gems and reforged a bit, leaving me with 13% dodge, 16% parry (using sword-shattering rune), and raising my Blood Shield % to 109%. I then tanked a quick random heroic (Shadowfang Keep) with one of my raid healers to get his thoughts.

    The changes were dramatic: many more close calls in trash pulls, while boss fights were laughable as I often finished them with 50K+ damage absorption to spare. During trash pulls I simply did not have time to focus on Death Strikes because I needed to aggro the whole group. I had to drop DnD, spread diseases with Pestilence, hold them with Heartstrike... I slipped in Death Strikes where I could, but only on a hap-hazard basis. My healer agreed that I was harder to heal against trash, easier against bosses.

    All that being said, trash pulls are a much smaller part of my tanking now and raid bosses much larger, so I expect to lean more towards mastery over avoidance as I move forward.
    Last edited by DarklingThrush; 03-22-2011 at 04:43 AM.

  7. #347
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    Swordshattering > Stoneskin Gargoyle

    Death Strike and Blood Shield will only be affected by Stoneskin Gargoyle if you are NOT taking enough damage to lift them above the bare minimum (which is based on your health), which probably means you are not in trouble and your choice of rune is less critical. Even then, they are only affected slightly. Swordshattering provides 4% parry that is not affected by deminishing returns, which is a great value as things stand now (4.0.6).

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    I have read so many threads and mind-froze my own brain trying to decypher pages of complex mathematics, but there does not seem to be any clear consensus on this debate. I have gotten the impression that the change to stacking Blood Shields has tipped the scales a bit towards mastery, so earlier tonight I decided to give it a go. I did not scrap all my avoidance, but switched my JC-special gems and reforged a bit, leaving me with 13% dodge, 16% parry (using sword-shattering rune), and raising my Blood Shield % to 109%. I then tanked a quick random heroic (Shadowfang Keep) with one of my raid healers to get his thoughts.

    The changes were dramatic: many more close calls in trash pulls, while boss fights were laughable as I often finished them with 50K+ damage absorption to spare. During trash pulls I simply did not have time to focus on Death Strikes because I needed to aggro the whole group. I had to drop DnD, spread diseases with Pestilence, hold them with Heartstrike... I slipped in Death Strikes where I could, but only on a hap-hazard basis. My healer agreed that I was harder to heal against trash, easier against bosses.

    All that being said, trash pulls are a much smaller part of my tanking now and raid bosses much larger, so I expect to lean more towards mastery over avoidance as I move forward.
    This is exactly what I did, our numbers are very close to the same and I do see the same problems you see. I often find myself popping
    CD's to stay alive during trash pulls, but as you point out while tanking a single boss it's golden. So, you use Death Pact, IBF, trinkets and DRW during trash pulls and it works out. Blizzard did a good job not making one stat king here and the flavor feels really good. The statement about knowing your Death Knight, and if you know him/her well, then you are a good durable tank. If in fact you are not doing a few things right it can have wiping type consequences for you and the party. I am also getting better at keeping up Bladed Armor during my rotation by keeping my B runes on constant cool down but it takes some practice. It has become more critical than ever to watch your runes and use moves according to them instead of just whaling away and not paying attention, which is what I was doing to an extent.
    A lot can be said when you're overgeared and tanking versus tanking end game content on the edge of your gear level, it really makes playing this content and this xpac fun to me and sometihng I didn't get to appreciate in Wrath.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    Best bet also is find 2-3 healers you know to q with and tell them to forget everyone else and just keep you alive.

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    Death Strike and Blood Shield will only be affected by Stoneskin Gargoyle if you are NOT taking enough damage to lift them above the bare minimum (which is based on your health), which probably means you are not in trouble and your choice of rune is less critical. Even then, they are only affected slightly. Swordshattering provides 4% parry that is not affected by deminishing returns, which is a great value as things stand now (4.0.6).
    vampiric blood, WotN and rune tap all benefit from from the increase in health. At higher gear levels (372+) i would expect stoneskin to pull ahead. As of right now they are pretty close, and are really a matter of preference.

  10. #350
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    What I've read on other forums:

    Normal content: Swordshattering > Stoneskin Gargoyle
    Heroic content: Stoneskin Gargoyle > Swordshattering

    But I didn't find any mathematic proof so far, seems more guessing based on WoL etc.
    You and your 15 bucks a month say you can play however you want, but 9 other people and their 135 dollars say 'Shut up and learn to play.'

  11. #351
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    Excellent Point!

    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    Death Strike and Blood Shield will only be affected by Stoneskin Gargoyle if you are NOT taking enough damage to lift them above the bare minimum (which is based on your health), which probably means you are not in trouble and your choice of rune is less critical. Even then, they are only affected slightly. Swordshattering provides 4% parry that is not affected by deminishing returns, which is a great value as things stand now (4.0.6).
    Like the title says, excellent point and, for some reason, something that I did not think about as I was considering reforging options. Thank you for helping me pull my head out of my @$$. The only downside is that now I have to re-reforge and possibly regem.

    I'm fairly certain that the extra 4% armor from Stoneskin will not compare to the extra 4% parry as far as effective health and damage taken goes, but are there any math wizards out there who can put up numbers to support it?

  12. #352
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    Another addon I would suggest is DocsDebugRunes, it is very good at tracking everything a DK has to track and right out of the box requires very little configuration to work well.
    Are there any other addons to help DK's? I'm particularly bad about letting my plagues fall off, but if DDR tracks everything I'm assuming it tracks those too.

  13. #353
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    Try Inline Aura from Curse.com which shows the time remaining on the action bar itself. DDR is pretty good too... even better when you take the time to customize your bar positions where you can easily see.

  14. #354
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    Disease Macro

    This is a macro i use for diseases and i keep them up all the time. Its pretty easy to remember when to click it due to the auto changing of the icon.

    #showtooltip
    /castsequence reset=40 Pestilence, Outbreak, Pestilence
    /run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

    Once you hit icy touch with plague strike, use pestilence then the screen will auto switch to outbreak. once the dieases get close to getting over hit it again then pestilence and it will start over again. The constant changing on the icon helps when it auto switches abilites.

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austinpowers View Post
    This is a macro i use for diseases and i keep them up all the time. Its pretty easy to remember when to click it due to the auto changing of the icon.

    #showtooltip
    /castsequence reset=40 Pestilence, Outbreak, Pestilence
    /run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

    Once you hit icy touch with plague strike, use pestilence then the screen will auto switch to outbreak. once the dieases get close to getting over hit it again then pestilence and it will start over again. The constant changing on the icon helps when it auto switches abilites.
    Pestilence doesn't refresh your diseases single target even when glyphed. I do believe with the way your macro is written the button will show up pestilence>outbreak>pestilence>pestilence>outbreak >pestilence.

  16. #356
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    Macro

    Quote Originally Posted by uglie View Post
    Pestilence doesn't refresh your diseases single target even when glyphed. I do believe with the way your macro is written the button will show up pestilence>outbreak>pestilence>pestilence>outbreak >pestilence.
    Its not for auto refreshing. An basic opener after using dnd is usualy icy touch then plague strike followed by pestilence. (When its aoe). Once you hit pestilence the icon will go to outbreak and you have 40sec to hit it or it will auto switch to pestilence. This also helps me keepin track of diseases since i know when outbreak is up time to hit it again soon.

  17. #357
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    Well its happened... Im bored with the dk and tanking in general. Its just gotten too easy. I dont know if its the game or I have just gotten that good but most of the time I am raiding I am watching tv... and im focused on the tv. I still somehow rank on both the dps and healing charts on one of the wow charting sites. I get annoyed as hell because when I an in a tank swap fights and the warrior tank in my group taunts the boss off of me I have to stop attacking in order not to pull aggro back. I self heal roughly 40-60% of my damage taken as well. So either i am playing really above par which I doubt or dks are a bit op right now. Nerf needed maybe. I hate to say that but when I can pull 9-14k dps as the tank depending on how much I pay attention and can survive for several minutes without heals for raid bosses if I manage my cooldowns, there is something wrong. I have tanked the council of the 4 winds with no dedicated healer before. Its kind of a joke.
    I hope the removal of dk healing generating threat is implemented soon.
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  18. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swam View Post
    I dont know if its the game or I have just gotten that good
    Bring the class not the player

    Quote Originally Posted by Swam View Post
    I get annoyed as hell because when I an in a tank swap fights and the warrior tank in my group taunts the boss off of me I have to stop attacking in order not to pull aggro back.
    That's something i noticed as well. First thought? Stacked vengeance helps you here but to be honest DK pull off insane tps values even with zero vengeance stacks. Why is that?
    a) Huge amount of double dip via death strike heal+damage, that's addressed in 4.1 (finally!)
    b) Runestrike, it's just to good to be true. An attack that never misses or either get's dodged or parried and you spam it basically at least every third global? That's awesome! I'd give my left arm for that adjustment on eg heroic strike.
    c) While all other tanks aim for parry/dodge/mastery or crit/dodge/mastery on their gear it's ok to have some % hit and expertise to connect your death strikes. In worst case another tank ends up with almost 30% chance to not connect (14% parry, 6.5% dodge, 8% miss) with his attacks and they are all build around tps spikes with a cooldown (sotr, shield slam, mangle).
    d) you don't need to be hit to deal almost your full amount of tps, a rage based class needs the additional rage from being hit to convert them into heroic strikes/maul. All you get from maintanking is Scent of Blood proccs besides the tps from Death Strike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swam View Post
    I self heal roughly 40-60% of my damage taken as well. So either i am playing really above par which I doubt or dks are a bit op right now. Nerf needed maybe.
    Blood shield is hard to balance for mastery stacker while Death Strike simply heals a fair amount on it's own as well. But you shouldn't underestimate the block tanks, taking ~40% less frontload damage is pretty neat. The problem are the large amount of cooldowns, if you manage them properly you can cover large timeframes with a rather short downtime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swam View Post
    survive for several minutes without heals for raid bosses if I manage my cooldowns, there is something wrong. I have tanked the council of the 4 winds with no dedicated healer before. Its kind of a joke.
    I did something similar on my paladin alt, if you can absorb/deny some stacks from the Nezir the rest is totally doable. That's a problem with bubble/ams and not with the tanks itself. The bosses hits fairly weak (10k/swing on average for a block tank) and this fight comes only down to handling the energy properly on normal mode.
    Last edited by klausi; 04-12-2011 at 12:11 AM.

  19. #359
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    Well its happened... Im bored with the dk and tanking in general. Its just gotten too easy. I dont know if its the game or I have just gotten that good but most of the time I am raiding I am watching tv... and im focused on the tv. I still somehow rank on both the dps and healing charts on one of the wow charting sites. I get annoyed as hell because when I an in a tank swap fights and the warrior tank in my group taunts the boss off of me I have to stop attacking in order not to pull aggro back. I self heal roughly 40-60% of my damage taken as well. So either i am playing really above par which I doubt or dks are a bit op right now. Nerf needed maybe. I hate to say that but when I can pull 9-14k dps as the tank depending on how much I pay attention and can survive for several minutes without heals for raid bosses if I manage my cooldowns, there is something wrong. I have tanked the council of the 4 winds with no dedicated healer before. Its kind of a joke.
    I guess you overgeared content. 9 aberrations on Maloriac HM can kill me in few seconds with IBF up. Nezir at Conclave hc periodically drops me below 50% with few hits, while my healer runs from ice patch. Magmaw hc hits me for 100k+ every 2.5 sec (without absorbs). I'm doing my best with chaining cooldowns and timing death strikes to survive this hell, and it's definitely not that easy.

    Also threat matters. Good DPS with average 25k dps, prepotting and bloodlusting at pull will require you to provide 50-60k tps right from start. Misdirect helps but you must keep high TPS too, misdirects are not silver bullet, it's just 4 second theat transfer. Especially considering that rogue can use their tricks on other rogue/mage to boost raid damage, if tank can deal with it.

    From my expierence, playing Blood DK is quite challenging task buy I like it this way.

  20. #360
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    9 aberrations is easy. 12 makes me run for my life.
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