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Thread: [Cataclysm] Death Knight Tanking: Satorri's Guide to the Bloody Future

  1. #221
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    @Felycitas - Agility no longer provides armor or AP (not sure if it gave AP in LK), it only affects DK crit chance, making it of very little use.

  2. #222
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    Agi in wrath gave armor, dodge and crit. Now it only gives crit and dodge.

  3. #223
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    Hoping I Do not get Flamed here. . . btw TY for the Props now to buisness. . When patch hit back before cata I wasn't tanking on my DK I think I mentioned that above.
    When I did Start to tank with Gothas (my DK (: ) I noticed a Serious lack of 2handed tanking weapons.
    I looked over blood talents Several times and Saw No Weapon Specific pros or cons in regard to DW or 2Hing.
    My thoughts are this Main/Off handed Tanking weapons Normally used by pallys and warriors . .Have Tanking stats! Things like dodge/parry/stam/ and Str or Agi and now with cata Add mastery.
    So because I till see a Lack of 2Hers with those stats I choose to DW with Tanking Weapons. Am I Wrong in this because, I keep having people who aren't tanks or used to be tanks b4 cata telling me that I should be Using 2Hers but looking directly to my character what he has and what he does not, it seems Stupid to me to ditch my mitigation weapons for something w/o them. Also the Runeforgine enchants seem to support my feelings of Non Specifics on Weapons for tanking b/c when you look at them Nerubian Carapace Xs 2 = the same stat % as Stoneskin gargoyle.
    Not to mention the Pure speed Increase of my attacks feels Very nice.
    Am I Missing something?
    I feel as though my Logic is Sound. But, just because I think I'm right doesn't mean that I am.
    Ty
    Last edited by Sgt_Scrap; 12-16-2010 at 09:15 PM.
    Clank Clank

  4. #224
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    I doubt there will ever be 2H tanking weapons. they would be designed for only one spec, which is the opposite of what blizz is trying to accomplish with the actual item design.

    Am I Missing something?
    Yes. Dual wielding w/o ToT means, only your MH will perform styles (such as RS, HS, DS etc.). It may not be too important now, but in later tiers, your threat generation will suffer a considerable loss.
    You and your 15 bucks a month say you can play however you want, but 9 other people and their 135 dollars say 'Shut up and learn to play.'

  5. #225
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    Right now a 2H weapon with mastery on it can be considered a tank weapon as well. With reforging it can be even more so with reforging cirt or haste to dodge, parry even mastery if none already on the weapon. Personally I'm in the "ha ha mr boss you hit like a girl" club with mastery vs the " ha ha you can't hit me" club with avoidance. So yes there can be 2H tank weapons, you just have to spend a tiny bit of gold to get em.
    As far as DW goes, it's a threat thing since you're basically only doing half the damage that you would with a 2H weapon. Even when we could tank in frost and had http://www.wowhead.com/spell=66192 we again used dps slow 1H weapons for threat because fast 1H tank weapons simply didn't do enough damage. Since damage = threat 1H tank weapons did not produce enough threat. Even top end pallies and warriors used slow 1H weapons for threat.

    In short, if you really want a 2H tank weapon reforging is your option. You'll also be doing yourself and your groups a favor by getting those mobs down faster with a 2H weapon.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    Bumping about my question on agility. What was removed in Cataclysm?
    Did I miss a question on Agility? Short answer is, no more armor from Agility, so it is purely a hybrid survival/threat stat with smaller amounts of dodge and crit than either pure rating. In all likelihood it is no longer a stat you'll go out of your way to get, and not at the expense of any pure survival stat, but where there is no survival stat available, Agility will give you something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Soth View Post
    @Felycitas - Agility no longer provides armor or AP (not sure if it gave AP in LK), it only affects DK crit chance, making it of very little use.
    It did give a very small amount of AP through armor. No more armor, no more AP. =(

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt_Scrap View Post
    I looked over blood talents Several times and Saw No Weapon Specific pros or cons in regard to DW or 2Hing.
    My thoughts are this Main/Off handed Tanking weapons Normally used by pallys and warriors . .Have Tanking stats! Things like dodge/parry/stam/ and Str or Agi and now with cata Add mastery. So because I till see a Lack of 2Hers with those stats I choose to DW with Tanking Weapons.
    This has come up a few times. Here's the nitty gritty:
    Dual wielding will severely compromise your threat. Rune Strike, Death Strike, and Heart Strike damage (read: 80+% of your threat) are all based on instant weapon damage. The slower the weapon, the higher the instant damage. They also *only* calculate on the main-hand weapon without the Frost-only Threat of Thassarian talent.

    That works out to about a 36% reduction in damage from each of those strikes every time you use them and a 25-35% reduction in overall threat.

    What you gain is moderate at best. You can get a little more Mastery (maybe), maybe a little dodge or parry, but otherwise nada. It is up to you if you want to make that trade off, if you think you can manage with that handicap. For my money, I think it is not worth it. DPS 2-handers are fine and they can offer plenty of survival value. They have comparable or better Stamina levels, the copious amounts of Strength gives us some measure of Parry, and you can get Haste or Mastery both of which have definite survival values. Grab a weapon with Mastery, Haste, Hit, and/or Expertise and you are benefiting yourself very well for Survival and Threat.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Dual wielding will severely compromise your threat. Rune Strike, Death Strike, and Heart Strike damage (read: 80+% of your threat) are all based on instant weapon damage. The slower the weapon, the higher the instant damage. They also *only* calculate on the main-hand weapon without the Frost-only Threat of Thassarian talent.

    That works out to about a 36% reduction in damage from each of those strikes every time you use them and a 25-35% reduction in overall threat.
    See. . This Is exactly what I was Wanting
    My only feedback so far was "You loose Threat" but not WHY! I Have found that since I started tanking with a DK some of what I had been learned/trained about tanking has been "thrown out the window" it was the INSTANT weapon damage that I was missing. in my mind it was woking like this

    {The slower tanking weapons Are Faster than the 2 handers which makes my threat generating abilities hit more often. .then with the constant stream of dammage every 3/4 seconds rather than 3.80 seconds calculates in my mind as "Streaming" ((like watching videos on the internet:P)) the dammage doesn't stop. So with the abilities hitting more often to me that was calculating as = more threat}

    But it is the INSTANT that changes that as to the Comment by UGLIE where he says

    "Personally I'm in the "ha ha mr boss you hit like a girl" club with mastery vs the " ha ha you can't hit me" club with avoidance."

    To me at least (and this is just personal Logic, which has failed me in the past) from a threat standpoint I would think that Getting hit is a bad thing.
    When I hit things I Feel Good when I Miss them I Get Pissed. and to my understanding isn't a small % of that built into the mechanic as realated to dodge/parry/Block generating Threat as well? (Yes I know DKs Don't have block, it's just an example)

    It all goes back to my Warrior days, and that Little voice in my head

    .oO YOU my friend, are a TANK!!! Don't worry so much about your .dps. You have people for that. Oo.

    I'm starting to realize that in those aspects in relation to Old School tanking things are changing. Even on my pally w/o even trying as I tank with him he is beginning to stay at or very near the top of the dammage meaters which was making me Feel like I was doing something wrong but the threat was there. So maybe these changes are accross the board with tanking.

    Blizz has been Stupifying things more often than not here as of late, making things easier is fine to some degree, but it seems as though the longer WoW goes on the Less skill it takes.
    I am glad they brought back the CC, it bothers me some because it took Forever it seems to Untrain myself to stop and wait for mana, and I find myself having to Retrain myself on several things however, some of it is comming back quite quickly.

    I always loved the creative thinking it took when your group didn't have the Standard CC abilities.

    NOW Time for some Reforging!

    As always TY for the insight and information . . I'll shut my trap now
    Clank Clank

  8. #228
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    Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle is what turns a non-tank weapon into a tank weapon.

    Also, I STRONGLY recommend everyone go get this...

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=63787 -- the Oversized Oblique Ogre Obliterator

    ...as soon as possible. It's from the 'Ring of Blood' stuff in Twilight Highlands. I tanked the entire thing at 84 and didn't really have too many issues.

    No RNG needed. Dunno when it's going to get replaced, but it'll definitely get you started if you didn't have something really sweet in Wrath (I had Shadow's Edge and this one is better; I also saw a better weapon drop from the 3rd boss in Stonecore (http://www.wowhead.com/item=55811 -- the Sword of the Bottomless Pit) but the OOOO is superior (the Sword has mastery and the OOOO crit, though)).

    Here's a comparison of all three weapons: http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=55811;63787;49888

  9. #229
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    Regarding the Tank-Weapon, I can only point at the Deadmines HC weapon http://www.wowhead.com/item=65165 that just keeps dropping two out of three times (I have one for def and for off, to not keep switching enchants and reforging ^^)
    Hit and Expertise are in definite need, and the 80 mastery/dodge/parry you get out of it, is a hell of lot for a simple reforge.. 2 pure gems :>

    Felycitas mentioned the arena-quest-reward, which you can easily carry until visiting heroics or, for really evil drop-luck, into the first raids

    Apart from this, I have also begun thinking of switching weapons infight, as I usually have a pretty enormous leap in threat after Heroism and begin-of-the-fight-all-out-DPS' cooldowns have worn off, which will not do the enormous survivabilty-boost, but will definitely help you keep alive.. as pointed out by Satorri 2*1-hand has about the same stamina as 1*2-hand, but more dodge/parry will help, when threat is not an issue, as it is right now for most bosses when being some minutes into the fight.

  10. #230
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    Hi,

    this might be just me or I really missed something, what's going on here? I checked this with different specs, different presences, with and without a weapon and chest just to be sure, apparently I'm getting more hp per stamina, the more stamina I got.



    Anybody?

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by indaril View Post
    Hi,

    this might be just me or I really missed something, what's going on here? I checked this with different specs, different presences, with and without a weapon and chest just to be sure, apparently I'm getting more hp per stamina, the more stamina I got.[/URL]

    Anybody?
    I doubt that is the case. The first 20 stamina your character has only gives you 1 hp per point, before 4.0/Cataclysm at least. I don't have WoW in front of me to check if/what it changed to, but replacing 20 and counting it only as 2 gives values much closer together (range from 13.985 to 13.999). This would likely be the main culprit.

    Edit: For example, if I assume the value is supposed to be 14 hp per stamina, I find the discrepancy among the stamina values in Blood presence is consistently 130/7 (18.5714) stamina.
    Last edited by BruisedOoze; 12-18-2010 at 08:03 PM.
    "Just because it's not nice doesn't mean it's not miraculous." - T. P.

  12. #232
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    It's still the 20, thanks a lot, didn't know that.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle is what turns a non-tank weapon into a tank weapon.

    Also, I STRONGLY recommend everyone go get this...

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=63787 -- the Oversized Oblique Ogre Obliterator

    ...as soon as possible. It's from the 'Ring of Blood' stuff in Twilight Highlands. I tanked the entire thing at 84 and didn't really have too many issues.

    No RNG needed. Dunno when it's going to get replaced, but it'll definitely get you started if you didn't have something really sweet in Wrath (I had Shadow's Edge and this one is better; I also saw a better weapon drop from the 3rd boss in Stonecore (http://www.wowhead.com/item=55811 -- the Sword of the Bottomless Pit) but the OOOO is superior (the Sword has mastery and the OOOO crit, though)).

    Here's a comparison of all three weapons: http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=55811;63787;49888
    Yeah, I'd say the Ogre Obliterator is a great starting point since it's a quest reward.

    For normal-mode dungeon drops, the Wild Hammer rocks due to its higher topend damage.

    For heroic drops, it looks like the sweet one to aim for is Sword of the Bottomless Pit (3.8 speed, topend dmg 2519)

    The heroic Wild Hammer and Foe Reaper are both very good, but they suffer from being a bit faster than SBP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Leave shields to the sissy tanks who need something to hide behind. Death Knights take it full in the face!
    | Unforgiven | Blood DK tank: Urikslargda |

  14. #234
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    just got the http://www.wowhead.com/item=56342 last night, and /drool. reforged the haste into dodge personally. but really that haste can be reforged to hit or expertise. Love all the mastery on it too and imo makes it the best pre epic/raid dk tank weapon available.

  15. #235
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    Im gonna throw a side bar in here. Have any of you tried blood in pvp? I have recently and have found it to be a power house. With the stuns and silences we had before, and adding to that dark sanctum and Necrotic strike, I have been able to beat 2-3 people solo and at one point in tol barard I was surviving against 10 people while alone for over 3 min. I find it highly amusing to kill casters with their own spells, or steal bubbles from pallys.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
    I'm on a shark

  16. #236
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    That is pretty awesome, Swam. I have done PvP in blood, but only back when Windrunner was getting 20 stacks of Tenacity. Tanks already have ridiculous health, but 20 stacks made my health pool completely insane, easily topping 200K. It would take the alliance a good minute to kill me with 10-15 guys on me. Ahh the fun. I am looking forward to trying it again with our new tools. I am almost there (moved servers, now level 75.)

  17. #237
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    Gotta say dark sim is very fun in pvp. Timing it takes some practice and still has some practical uses in pve such as in VP timing it steal a cyclone from one of the trash mobs and since it doesn't reflect immediately you can use said cyclone to cc another mob even if only for a few seconds.
    As far as my XP in pvp with my dk it's limited to playing around with a guild holy pally in durator which was about as long as a tank on tank match. But i was using dark sim on him on every cd and caught a HoJ. I can foresee the better pvpers constantly looking for it so probably about the best way to use it would be to watch their cast bar and use it on your opponent at the last second so they can stop their cast in time.

  18. #238
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    Bloodworms Revisited:

    Been playing with my spec some more, and found a way to spec both Bloodworms and Abomination's Might at level 85. I am still seeing the Abomb buff active in most of my groups, and find the worms more satisfying with the new graphics for procs. You actually see the blood splashing; I never saw this during my first trial with them between 4.0.3 and Cata. My average heal seems to run around 8k, and this seems to happen at least once per significant fight. That's still not much better than a randomly-timed glyphed rune tap, but - as someone observed earlier in this thread - we always seem to need more healing these days.

    I freed the points up by spec-ing out of Morbidity (simultaneously swapping my DnD glyph for Heart Strike). I have also reforged some hit and expertise into dodge and parry. At this point in the expansion, I am struggling less with threat than survivability. Even with the complex pulls demanded by CCs, I can still almost always hold onto a group; the trick is staying alive as the healer runs out of mana before DPS can finish off the mobs. It will be interesting to see how that balances as we move through heroics and into raiding. How are others finding the threat vs survival challenge? Which do you wish for more of?

  19. #239
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    Does expertise generate threat just by being there? or only when it allows you to land a blow that otherwise would have been dodged? I have not been expertise capped since "expanding" out of my old raiding gear, and wonder how much of a priority it is to change that (along with hit cap). If I remember right, I am about 22 expertise atm (reforged some for more avoidance), and I think that gives bosses around a 3% chance of dodging me.

  20. #240
    For those DK tanks out there, what i have been doing is throwing down DnD, death strike-ing (to get the death runes), spaming blood boil (get to do it about 4 times with out stoping), they rune strike-ing till out of runic power. Spec 2 point into higher RP so i have exactly enough RP for 4 Rune strikes. Then i start the rotation over. if you guys have a better rotation let me know.

    Blood and Thunder.

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