[Cataclysm] Death Knight Tanking: Satorri's Guide to the Bloody Future

[Michultradk]

RE: Sindragosa slows: Hunters can buy you 4 seconds of normal speed by using "Master's Call"; the hunter on our team would save that for when I called for it (usually when I was racing to drop stacks, or racing back to grab Sindy).

Thanks for that, one of my best raider friends is a Hunter.

[Lord Soth]

RE: Bloodworms

I gave up on bloodworms for two reasons:

1) The total healing I was getting from them was extremely low (according to Recount and my combat log)

2) What healing I got was poorly (randomly) timed. Unlike a Rune Tap I can use when I need it, bloodworms are as likely to burst when healers have just topped me off as they are to help when needed - more likely, actually, since healers have me covered more often than not.

The way I understand Cataclysm encounter design is that we will not be getting topped off regularly like we do in WotLK. If this is the case, the random nature ought not to be a problem. Overhealing should be minimal on the Blood Worms. That doesn't really help with number 1, though.

The spec I am going with gets both the 10% AP raid buff and the 10% AP debuff and Blood worms. I doubt the usefulness of taking Virulence to get to tier 2's morbidity for a mere dmg boost to DnD (we don't use DC). I look forward to playing it at 85 and finding out just how wrong (or right) I am. I am stoked for this release, heh.

[Satorri]

'tis true.

The final verdict on Blood Worms is still to be determined at level 85 content.

I think it is safe to assume that it will never be *huge* heals, but for some it could be very desirable. The big value is where it can reduce the healing load on the healers and spare their mana pool. That does not exist really at 80, so we'll have to see how it feels later.

The other key to appreciating healing values is that it is *not* always about total healing done (yes, feel free to relay that to your ace healer who likes to link healing charts). The key in healing is the heals that land when you need them most. A semi-random heal like Bloodworms may not be dependable, but it is a chance at a lucky heal you don't have otherwise. You never know when the healers may be taxed and that one little bugger bursts and makes their life easier, or even saves the day.

That doesn't mean it will be for everyone, just reserve judgment for another week. Then you'll probably start getting an earful about the t11 raid scene.

Happy world ending to all of you who, like me, are going to start the new climb tonight!

[Swam]

I got red bull, jack and coke, noodles and i slept all day. I am ready

[Lord Soth]

Swam, fit some fruit and protein into that mix and have a good time man. I am envious. Dec 8th will be the earliest I play.

[Felycitas]

The tooltip says 60% for blood presence. This correct?

Also, no mention of a haste increase. That correct as well?

[Acidbladze]

Love the guide so far, looking forward to updates. Nearing 83 on my DK as we speak and will try a few random thoughts and post my findings when available if anyone needs something that may not be mainstream enough for the guide.

[Acidbladze]

at what level and point should we consider sacrificing bonus stats from say ICC/ H ICC gear and T10 for the increase in stam/str/ gem slots versus no gem slots. I have been holding items and AH/vendoring a lot because i am having a hard time weighing out the small stat increase versus the loss of the bonus stats???

[Satorri]

The tooltip says 60% for blood presence. This correct?

Also, no mention of a haste increase. That correct as well?

The tooltip took time to correct (I think it is, I don't look at it). Armor is +30% from Blood Presence now.

The haste increases comes from the Imp Blood Pres talent, it is never represented in Blood Pres' tooltip. The talent's tooltip is accurate.

at what level and point should we consider sacrificing bonus stats from say ICC/ H ICC gear and T10 for the increase in stam/str/ gem slots versus no gem slots. I have been holding items and AH/vendoring a lot because i am having a hard time weighing out the small stat increase versus the loss of the bonus stats???

This is the fun of leveling, and not really a question for this forum, but hey, why not. =)

The set bonuses will be awesome for a while, but the base stats on loot from Deepholm-ish and most likely Uldum/Twilands should well out-pace the total value of ICC gear plus their gems and enchants. You just have to add those values into the gear stats and compare.

[Sgt_Scrap]

. . . I Am a Tank! to the core Primarily Warrior since 05.
I will start a new class , Pally,Druid,DK and swear up and down I will not tank with them, however eventually because of instant Ques. . . One by one I give in and start tanking with them.
Up until recently I Hated DK tanks, thinking they were purely a Joke and that they were never serious contenders for tanking.
Then we got the new trees and DKs got the dedicated blood spec for tanking which was my spec before the change. I tried going dps in frost and unholy. . and then I Finally realized that it's not the instant ques that drive me into tanking.
It's Just who I am It's what I am and I can't change that. I was doing good with tanking as a dk all the general rules to tanking apply to ALL tanks (don't flame me for that comment) it's your Job to be the Protector of your party.
However once Cata Hit and I started leveling and replacing gear I was dazzled by all the shiny numbers and was doing fine until I started trying to tank the instances.
Now, I've lost all confidence in my ability and so I come online and look for Rotations/Priorities, builds, tips anything but all I Find is OLD Stuff.
Then I found this thread here and it is VERY Nice However. . . There is Just SOOOO Much Here. and it's too much information for me to process all at once.
I was never truly dedicated to my DK because I still had my Warrior but I've retired him now, and am focusing my Attention on my DK.
Would it be possible to get a Sumary of the information here So that i can fix myself then tweak and I have more time to Go through all of this Wonderful Information. Please

[Felycitas]

The summary is in the first post.

Also, anyone refresh my memory on the change to agility for DK's?

I don't remember what we lost.

[Sgt_Scrap]

The First Post is an Introduction to the Guide. . not a summary.

[Lord Soth]

Don't short yourself, Sgt_Scrap, take the time to sit and read the entire guide. Satori's presentation is excellent and not overly complicated by numbers like the stuff over at Elitist Jerks. He presents the how and why to everything, presenting summarized data where appropriate and it is presented in a way that allows you to make choices based on his information not "just do it this way" you get in many other guides. If your attention span is inadequate, take it in smaller chunks, but almost everyone ought to be able to take it all in one sitting if they are dedicated to the class and role, as you obviously are. Tanking rocks!

[Sgt_Scrap]

I read through things some and was quite anxious to stay in game lol wanting to continue Leveling almost there been questing with a friend mining skinning and trying out archaeology. I was skinning and mining my way around Twilight Highlands with the lv 84 mobs (same lv as myself) and not even surviving 2 at a time which really opened my eyes and discouraged me (which was before I found this thread).

I came here and studied a bit made my post read some more. Then I thought to my self, Just do what you always do Read your abilities again. So I cleared out ALL my bars and Macros and took the time to Re-learn the changes and Started peicing myself back together. I kept comming back here and checking things only to make sure I wasn't gimping myself. I didn't feel the need to respec my talents, and things are looking up!
When my friend came on last night (druid Healer) she never Needed to heal me, sure she would top me off now and then or after a fight but the struggle for my life had vanished! I wil definatly keep reading and studying this guide. But, for anyone who is dedicated to any class or role, sometimes taking the time to Compare your abilities and study how they work together to benifit you and your friends!
I may post back latrr with my macros and rotation and my reasons behind why I did them how I did besides the Obvious Needing Space on my bars (I refuse to use bar mods).
Sometimes all the abilities can get confusing when you are going over them all together but when you take the time to read each one individually and focus on just that one before moving on to the next, your mind will start putting things together saying
"Hey this ability will work very well with That one when I put them together like This!"
After a while you begin to truly understand your mechanics and will be better for it.
Just a a bit of friendly advice for anyone struggling like I was

[Satorri]

Just do what you always do Read your abilities again. So I cleared out ALL my bars and Macros and took the time to Re-learn the changes and Started peicing myself back together. I kept comming back here and checking things only to make sure I wasn't gimping myself. I didn't feel the need to respec my talents, and things are looking up! For anyone who is dedicated to any class or role, sometimes taking the time to Compare your abilities and study how they work together to benifit you and your friends!

And there it is! That is exactly what I want to support.

Learn your class, read your spells. Learn how things work. If the game isn't clear or you want some external source of guidance or organization to start making sense of it all? That is what I'm writing for.

Beyond that, I just try to answer the things that are not obvious or stated directly in the game (or perhaps emphasizing what is when there is confusion).

Glad to hear things are looking up Sgt_Scrap. =)

[DarklingThrush]

Now that the Cataclysm has occurred, I have some more thoughts on
Bloodworms vs. Abomination's Might:

The case for Bloodworms: We are definitely not getting healed to 100% as often, so the chances of a bloodworm heal coming at a welcome time are much better than in WotLK.

The case for Abomination's Might: It looks like heroic dungeons will be a considerable challenge before we return to raiding, and the chances that this buff will be duplicated are obiviously lower in a 5-team than in a 10-team. 10% more AP for the whole raid (and 2% more strength for the tank) means fights are 10% shorter and that is 10% less time that healer mana has to last.

For the moment, I am sticking with Abomination's Might, but I will continue to check here for other thoughts and data.

[DarklingThrush]

Early Cata Observations:

1) Tanks need to glance at healer mana bars before pulling. At marginal gear levels, at least, healers need to replenish after every serious fight. This does have an upside; we get to use our CDs on almost every fight!

2) In normal dungeons, the trash fights are much harder than the boss fights, but this flips in heroics. Normal dungeons, then, are an opportunity to study the boss mechanics before they become deadly.

3) CC is truly the order of the day. In heroics, especially, we are sheeping selected mobs on every trash pull. The challenge for tanks, then, is creating threat on other mobs without breaking CC on the sheep. Separating mobs, careful placement of DnD, and watching the radius of BB and Pestilence are all important skills to develop. In guild runs, we have actually been letting the hunter pull using freeze-traps, with me grabbing the other mobs after. This will get easier once we have all the pulls memorized; right now (since I can't just charge in to drop DnD) I spend a lot of time figuring out which mobs will charge us and which will need a Death Grip.

4) Like tanking, healing now requires much more skill. I have more success with lower-geared and even lower-level guildies from our core raid teams than healers with higher stats that I've pugged. Consequently, I am less likely to take advantage of the instant tank-queues in the dungeon finder and more likely to wait for a guild run (especially for heroics).

5) Dark Simulacrum is FUN! Just wish I had more time to see exactly what I was throwing back at the caster (just for the fun of knowing). Death Knights are truly positioned to be THE optimal tank for caster fights, with Death Grip, Mind Freeze, Stragulate, Anti-Magic Shell, and now Dark Simulacrum... yeah, the clothies must hate us

[uglie]

Early Cata Observations:

1) Tanks need to glance at healer mana bars before pulling. At marginal gear levels, at least, healers need to replenish after every serious fight. This does have an upside; we get to use our CDs on almost every fight!

2) In normal dungeons, the trash fights are much harder than the boss fights, but this flips in heroics. Normal dungeons, then, are an opportunity to study the boss mechanics before they become deadly.

3) CC is truly the order of the day. In heroics, especially, we are sheeping selected mobs on every trash pull. The challenge for tanks, then, is creating threat on other mobs without breaking CC on the sheep. Separating mobs, careful placement of DnD, and watching the radius of BB and Pestilence are all important skills to develop. In guild runs, we have actually been letting the hunter pull using freeze-traps, with me grabbing the other mobs after. This will get easier once we have all the pulls memorized; right now (since I can't just charge in to drop DnD) I spend a lot of time figuring out which mobs will charge us and which will need a Death Grip.

4) Like tanking, healing now requires much more skill. I have more success with lower-geared and even lower-level guildies from our core raid teams than healers with higher stats that I've pugged. Consequently, I am less likely to take advantage of the instant tank-queues in the dungeon finder and more likely to wait for a guild run (especially for heroics).

5) Dark Simulacrum is FUN! Just wish I had more time to see exactly what I was throwing back at the caster (just for the fun of knowing). Death Knights are truly positioned to be THE optimal tank for caster fights, with Death Grip, Mind Freeze, Stragulate, Anti-Magic Shell, and now Dark Simulacrum... yeah, the clothies must hate us

I'm loving Dark Sim. Me and my guild holy pally were screwing around and dueling and I got a HoJ off on him and it was glorious. Pissed him off to no end and made me as giddy as a school girl after prom considering I've always hated HoJ from pvp.

As far as pugging heroics, not happening with me unless I have a guild healer but a guild group is much more preferable. Running with the same dps for most runs makes things so much easier to the point that everyone just knows when and what to do cutting run times down drastically

Love cc when it's there, hate it when it not. Heroic Vp without a shammy or lock requires some interesting and creative thinking. knowledge and smart rotation of cd's is of a much greater understanding as well. Even knowing when to army or rather when NOT to army makes AotD capable of being a wipe saving move allowing you and your healer to take a small break. Knowing what mobs to sheep and which to kill first comes with experience and careful study of the mobs. Repeated runs of dungeons on reg makes heroics just a bit easier. Think of reg's as training grounds and heroics as proving grounds. When learning the mobs on reg make sure to pay close attention to which mob is doing what and what moves will be deadly in heroic.

[Satorri]

Darkling, the one problem with Abom's Might is how often it can just not be needed.

If you have a Pally and a Druid or two Pallies, it is definitely covered with no talents spent. Similarly if you have an Enhancement Shaman it is an appealing talent for them to take even if the buff is redundant. If you're randoming a lot, it can be nice to take for the assurance you'll have it, but you still won't really get value out of it often enough.

My perspective *is* a bit slanted since I almost always have 2 Pallies or a Pally/Druid in my groups.

[Felycitas]

Bumping about my question on agility. What was removed in Cataclysm?