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Thread: [Cataclysm] Death Knight Tanking: Satorri's Guide to the Bloody Future

  1. #181
    any thoughts on the armor nerf from 60% to 30% while in blood presence? i'm trying to decide wether or not i should panic, especially after all the nerfs to our healing.

  2. #182
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    According to EJ, In damage taken we are still below druids and warriors, paladins still beat us though but they have escaped the round of nerfs this time around.

  3. #183
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    Death Knight mastery questions.

    Hello all!

    First of all, excellent posts in this thread. The summary of all things about death knight tanking is very good!

    The armor nerf felt quite huge, our healers noticed it on heroic LK. Now, I believe that the nerf was motivated to balance the effectiveness of the death knight mastery however, the questions i have about the mastery also stand alone. In the original post, it was mentioned that 5.3 or 5.4 death strikes a min would roughly mean more benefit from mastery than avoidance on a lot of raid bosses. Is there a way to exactly read out how much damage has been absorbed by the blood shield from, say, world of logs. Despite my efforts i have not been able to do this (thefiddle from US lightbringer <Tupan Techno> if anyone knows the answer!) I wonder about the following:


    a) How much was actually absorbed via just the 'blood shield'. To my knowledge, the shield itself is a coefficient off amount of heath gained, i.e. effective healing. So assuming that the coefficient is some positive number 'c', a crude estimate would be

    c*Healing done * ( 1 - %Over healing/100)

    Is this estimate actual ?

    b) A related question would be if the shields stack. The tool tip only says 'absorbs physical damage, but does not say how much. If i Death strike 2 times in a row, both of then heal me will the shield i have be the following expression:

    Shield from first + shield from second ;

    or just

    Shield from second.

    c) Another related question would be the order in which physical damage is absorbed. For instance, if i have power ward shield, valanyr proc and blood shield up and i get hit for 20k, will the blood shield always get absorbed first? or will the absorption happen in the order in which they were applied (if PW: Shield was applied first then it gets eaten fallowed by w/e).

    This is most likely the latter. It is important because i dont think the buff from blood shield is that long (unless it is actually 30 seconds and then w/e) and between swings, parries and casts it may actually wear off before absorbing anything.

    -- End of questions --

    My goal is to compute the optimal death strike / heart strike ratio under a variety of situations. 5.3 heart strikes a min sounds reasonable but under various circumstances (casting, transitions and a lot of other things that just *come up* on progression), answering these questions would really help.

    I would like to note though that death strike is not modified by diseases and is far less threat than heart strike. It would not be surprising, if not expected, that the optimal way to maximize utility of the mastery would be to sac diseases and a lot of threat (though one may not actually do this).

    Thanks for the help
    thefiddle

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    Yikes. Just tanked my first heroic (Violet Hold) and a few thoughts...



    2) I'm pretty well geared for a tank and a mage constantly kept ripping single target aggro from me.

    1) if they have an itchy trigger finger and hit them first then it can take a bit to get it back from them and if they are pulling one of a group then your aoe will never be > thier single target; but most dps need to learn how to follow a kill order or take tanks target.

    2) heart strike and rune strike give the most threat per hit ifyou rune strike isn't coming up enuff get more avoidance.

    3) diseases do not produce alot of threat initially but do make it easier to get threat back if you lose it due to constant building of threat from them





    [EDIT: Also, how did you unholy tanks get yourselves in the mindset to keep bone shield going all the time? I forgot like crazy.]
    Thier are some addons that track it for you mine may seem strange but works well it's healbot, also VuhDu works well too.
    "It's always the Healer's fault; unless it's the Tanks fault, just ask the DPS'er in purples doing 5k!"

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefiddle View Post
    Is there a way to exactly read out how much damage has been absorbed by the blood shield from, say, world of logs.
    Not yet. Currently the size of Blood Shield is not enumerated anywhere in the player's side of the game. All the other player shields *have* been however (all the applied ones anyway). If you use World of Logs you can take the total you absorbed, subtract Power Word: Shield, Divine Aegis, and Illuminated Healing, and the remainder *should* be the Blood Shield soaks with two asterisks: it can only be physical damage, you need to account for AMS (which will only be on spell damage). AMS, if you used it completely, can just be counted for half your health times the number of times you used it.

    Quote Originally Posted by thefiddle View Post
    a) How much was actually absorbed via just the 'blood shield'. To my knowledge, the shield itself is a coefficient off amount of heath gained, i.e. effective healing. So assuming that the coefficient is some positive number 'c', a crude estimate would be
    c*Healing done * ( 1 - %Over healing/100)
    Is this estimate actual ?
    Cleaning up your language: the shield is not based on *effective* healing, it is based on total healing (so even 100% overheal will give you the full size shield). In other words, Mastery cannot be wasted by DS heals when you don't need them, it can only be diminished by using it at a poor time for your damage taken (resulting in a small DS heal and a matching proportion of shield).

    So, get rid of the overhealing adjustment. Life Shield = c*(DS heal)

    Quote Originally Posted by thefiddle View Post
    b) A related question would be if the shields stack. The tool tip only says 'absorbs physical damage, but does not say how much. If i Death strike 2 times in a row
    We cannot be 100% because we can't see the numbers, but I think it is a safe assumption that it got the same treatment of every other shield: If the second Blood Shield is smaller than the existing one, it refreshes the duration but does not over-write the shield. If the second Shield is larger, it will over-write the existing bubble.

    Quote Originally Posted by thefiddle View Post
    c) Another related question would be the order in which physical damage is absorbed. For instance, if i have power ward shield, valanyr proc and blood shield up and i get hit for 20k, will the blood shield always get absorbed first?
    Results hazy, try again later.

    We have no current way to be sure which bubble gets eaten first, and no one has found a good way to structure an experiment to answer that conclusively.



    Quote Originally Posted by thefiddle View Post
    My goal is to compute the optimal death strike / heart strike ratio under a variety of situations. 5.3 heart strikes a min sounds reasonable but under various circumstances (casting, transitions and a lot of other things that just *come up* on progression), answering these questions would really help.
    I've re-crunched the numbers (appears in the replies, I guess not the original?). There is a semi-complex interaction between Avoidance and Mastery, but the short answer is that over the range of available avoidance at 80:
    1.) if you can do better than ~4.8 DS per minute, you can effect more overall damage reduction from Mastery than Avoidance
    2.) the DS requirement decreases as you increase Avoidance or Mastery rating (meaning the more ratings you get the less you need to use DS to benefit more from Mastery, overall)
    3.) the basis for this does gross statistical averages, if you use DS with poor timing you will get less value; if you time your DS well, you could get more value.


    Quote Originally Posted by thefiddle View Post
    I would like to note though that death strike is not modified by diseases and is far less threat than heart strike. It would not be surprising, if not expected, that the optimal way to maximize utility of the mastery would be to sac diseases and a lot of threat (though one may not actually do this).
    DS does *not* do much less or less threat at all if you have a high effective heal value. Remember, effective healing causes threat, and is modified by the threat multiplier from Blood Pres.

    Diseaseless tanking is a not unpopular thing right now for people who want to simplify what they're doing. The threat loss is small enough to not be a big issue overall and some find they can be more effective thanks to said simplification. Should you choose to do this, you need to remember to account for your tank debuffs from elsewhere (particularly the de-haste you lose with Frost Fever).


    And a blanket note:
    All of this becomes potentially out-dated next Tuesday. All of these numbers and assumptions will change with level 85 tank values, gear layout, gem and enchant choices, and the overall change in tank damage and healing conventions.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  6. #186
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    And, on that note, I will work to update numbers to their level 85 values as I can, but some of the updates may lag a bit during the onset of the new expansion.

    I'm happy to make sure the community has resources, but I've been quite short on time lately. =)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  7. #187
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    Satorri,

    What is your feeling on the EJ debate over using a Lichborne spec? Sounds pretty interesting once we reach 85 (maybe even good for solo leveling before that).

    Hoping you have more time soon. ;-)
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Leave shields to the sissy tanks who need something to hide behind. Death Knights take it full in the face!
    | Unforgiven | Blood DK tank: Urikslargda |

  8. #188
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    Thanks!

    Thanks for the reply sattori! I did not know that the mastery works even off overheal. Also, thanks a lot for clarifying that the shields dont stack but overwrite !

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urythmic View Post

    What is your feeling on the EJ debate over using a Lichborne spec?
    It all hinges on us having healing issues at 85.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urythmic View Post
    What is your feeling on the EJ debate over using a Lichborne spec? Sounds pretty interesting once we reach 85 (maybe even good for solo leveling before that).
    It is hard to say as I haven't really tested it myself to get a feeling for it.

    The idea has merit for adding another survival CD, but there are major issues with its use to get the most value. You need to be well-prepared which can impinge on the already longish CD of the ability. To get optimal use you need to let RP pile up (which will likely mean sacrificing moves to not using your RunEmp cycle), and it takes multiple CDs to make full use of the ability. It *is* improved if you run with other DKs, the more the better, but it still presents the issue of timing with them, again, to get the value when you need it.

    It *could* be a powerhouse move if executed as a team maneuver.

    There are just so many *ifs* for me. You also have to spend a lot to get it. The first 5 points in Frost are mediocre at best. RPM *at least* could actually get used for Lichborne combos, but Icy Reach and NoCS? Meh. Icy Reach even loses a lot of its value when you introduce Outbreak at 81 (30 yrd range, instant delivery of both diseases).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felycitas View Post
    It all hinges on us having healing issues at 85.
    This is a key point as well.

    From all appearances there could be good use for it *because* healing is less time intensive. Because you won't die on the next hit so often, it could be a valuable tool. At the same time, for that same reason, many people may end up favoring more threat oriented talenting, and not like spending the extra cost to buy into Lichborne.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  12. #192
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    Updated numbers and fixed a bunch of anachronisms.


    *All values represented will be for level 85*
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  13. #193
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    Please delete this post, made it by accident.
    Xarleen/Xarleene/Xarleena/Xeela - Aggramar EU.

  14. #194
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    After being a lurker for a long time I thought I owe you a big thank you Satorri for your excellent guide! I have been a dk tank since day 1 and have always found your guides helpful. And after recently returning to wow from a year out I found myself not having a clue about all the recent class changes and what they meant for me. You fixed that! Cheers

  15. #195
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    Xarleen, you can delete your own post in the full editor.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #196
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    I took a break from wow back in September to Coach Soccer, before leaving I was a blood tank and loved it!

    Anyways, I have been reading numerous DK tanking posts over the past few days and have yet to come up with a spec that feels good on paper. What are your thoughts on http://www.wowhead.com/talent#jcGrMsMruszZbhc:0Rsks00zM ?

    Regards,

    Vale

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valeroice View Post

    What are your thoughts on...
    While I don't have any actual evidence (because I never paid attention to it)...

    I strongly recommend dumping Unholy Command completely. It's not reliable, it should be fairly rare that the tank gets the killing blow (unless you're looking at PvP), and at least pre-Cataclysm there's never really been any situations I encountered that needed Death Grip to be active as much as possible. Putting those 2 points into Virulence would be much better IMO (as Dark Command uses spell hit).

    Also, be aware that in Cataclysm the emphasis is to NOT make it the AoE-fest that Wrath was so we're looking at more single/double target pulls. Death and Decay may not be used AS MUCH to warrant 3 talent points to make it do more damage.

  18. #198
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    Loving this thread and returning to it often. To update and comment on some of the questions here:

    1) There is now an addon available through Curse ("Bloodshield Tracker") that not only tracks your shield once it procs, but also attempts to forecast the strength of a shield you would get at any given moment based on the damage you have been taking. This addon makes the talent even more fun and satisfying. My best shields so far are from tanking Algalon (17k) and from tanking two enraged Shambling Horrors at once in LK fight (21k).

    2) The changes to Rune Strike are now in effect, and I love them! When in Blood Presence, you no longer need avoidance to proc Rune Strike. In fact, I now find that I can almost spam alternating Death Strikes and Rune Strikes. Threat concerns are a thing of the past. I have to be careful in two tank fights not to pull aggro when it's not my turn (is like using too many ITs in the old days before the patch). Let me get glyphed DRW up, fire off a couple of Rune Strikes, and I defy even the best dps to pull a boss away from me.

    3) The new Plague Strike/Blood Boil proc is a great tool for holding group threat. I still use Heart Strike a lot too; which route I go depends on how many mobs there are. For larger groups, I drop DnD, IT, PS, Pestilence, BB, then just alternate PS and BB...

    4) Lastly, for the tank complaining of dps pulling fringe mobs (the ones he is not directly striking) off him: The good dps have figured out that Blizz has deliberately taken us back to the days when tanks needed to BUILD threat. The bad dps are not worth protecting. Your taunts are there to protect healers, not fail dps. "You pull it, you tank it" is once again the order of the day. Most of us tanks have a dps spec or toon as well; do we not all know how to manage our threat? If we fail to manage our threat, do we complain? or do we apologize since we know whose fault it really was? It is the tank's job to lift the threat ceiling as high as possible, and the 4.0.3 mechanics make this a gradual process; it is dps's job to stay under the ceiling as it rises.

  19. #199
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    RE: Sindragosa slows: Hunters can buy you 4 seconds of normal speed by using "Master's Call"; the hunter on our team would save that for when I called for it (usually when I was racing to drop stacks, or racing back to grab Sindy).

  20. #200
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    RE: Bloodworms

    I gave up on bloodworms for two reasons:

    1) The total healing I was getting from them was extremely low (according to Recount and my combat log)

    2) What healing I got was poorly (randomly) timed. Unlike a Rune Tap I can use when I need it, bloodworms are as likely to burst when healers have just topped me off as they are to help when needed - more likely, actually, since healers have me covered more often than not.

    In the end I decided that a sure gain from Abomination's Might (2% str always, and an awesome +10% AP for the whole raid if not already being provided) was a better buy than a rarely-occurring over-heal from the worms. I would argue that the little-used glyph for Rune Tap is actually more useful than bloodworms; it may only be 5% party heals now (down from 10%), but we can still time that heal for when the party needs it (like LK's Infest).
    Last edited by DarklingThrush; 12-04-2010 at 10:16 PM.

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