Closed Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 42

Thread: Cataclysm DW Tanking

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,096
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    NO LULIA!

    You're doing it wrong! It is black and white, night and day, right and wrong! If you aren't doing it the best way, you're doing it the WRONG way! Get it right!
    Sorry

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    NO LULIA!

    You're doing it wrong! It is black and white, night and day, right and wrong! If you aren't doing it the best way, you're doing it the WRONG way! Get it right!
    I'm sorry I don't like to give people looking for help poor advice, push agendas that are flat wrong, and generally misunderstand how progression tanking works.
    I'll try harder next time.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,096
    Edgewalker, none of us are suggesting that. Neither Satorri nor I would recommend that someone DW Tank, but we're not going to tell them it's impossible. It is possible. Should it be done in a progression raiding environment? No. It'll cause too many issues, but the decision is up to the person and their raid team. We can inform them of why it would be a bad decision, but the decision is theirs. If someone chooses to DW Tank as blood, they probably won't be accepted in many places and will learn quickly why the decision is not a good one. If they just want to use DW Tanking in non-progression regular dungeon content, why should we stop them?

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    289
    My post aimed at edgewalker was purely to ask if he thought i suggested the idea of DW to be viable, while i said the exact opposite.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    Edgewalker, none of us are suggesting that. Neither Satorri nor I would recommend that someone DW Tank, but we're not going to tell them it's impossible. It is possible. Should it be done in a progression raiding environment? No. It'll cause too many issues, but the decision is up to the person and their raid team. We can inform them of why it would be a bad decision, but the decision is theirs. If someone chooses to DW Tank as blood, they probably won't be accepted in many places and will learn quickly why the decision is not a good one. If they just want to use DW Tanking in non-progression regular dungeon content, why should we stop them?
    Satorri was just suggesting (I'm assuming he also takes issue with some of my other opinions on his "advice" to players) that I see things in black and white, which is really not true. I see things as bad or good, and what the OP was asking (the original topic, this is a help site afterall) was whether or not DW would be viable because he dual wields on live. The short answer, and the answer he was really looking for, is no. The tank tree doesn't support it, it won't do enough threat, and it's overall a very very very poor decision.

    YES you CAN dual wield, but holy paladins can DPS, you can tank on a Shaman, and you can heal as retribution too. I really don't understand why anyone would waste time pushing on this topic.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    My post aimed at edgewalker was purely to ask if he thought i suggested the idea of DW to be viable, while i said the exact opposite.
    Oh no, it was a bad communication by me. I got what you said

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,096
    He asked if he could DW and Tank, not if he could DW and Tank in progression content. The lack of that nominator in "progression content" makes a world of a difference, and why we gave much "grayer" answers. If he's just doing normal dungeons and he's with overgeared groups, he'll probably be fine. If he wants to do progression content, then yes, it's not the suggested method.

    The answer Satorri gave was more thorough, but I don't think any reasonable person (aka someone who could be progression raiding) would take it to mean that they should go DW Tank as Blood in progression content.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,442
    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Satorri was just suggesting (I'm assuming he also takes issue with some of my other opinions on his "advice" to players) that I see things in black and white, which is really not true. I see things as bad or good, and what the OP was asking (the original topic, this is a help site afterall) was whether or not DW would be viable because he dual wields on live. The short answer, and the answer he was really looking for, is no. The tank tree doesn't support it, it won't do enough threat, and it's overall a very very very poor decision.

    YES you CAN dual wield, but holy paladins can DPS, you can tank on a Shaman, and you can heal as retribution too. I really don't understand why anyone would waste time pushing on this topic.
    The man does make points honestly.

    You don't go and suggest that you can do something when it really isn't optimal to do so. At this time, dual wielding at all in a DK scenario is not optimal and plain silly.

    As individuals discussing class mechanics, we must show that there are optimal ways of doing things, and other ways that are just downright silly to do so. Dual wielding at this time is not optimal at all, no matter how you slice it.

    There is a degree for acceptance, and there is a degree of tolerance that can be placed on individuals. But giving them hope that something would work when it obviously would not due to the fact of the severe downsides of doing so, is nothing short of irresponsible as representatives of a community leading information service.

    No matter what, the Blood tree has never been able to really give options to the Death Knight to dual wield efficiently. It just doesn't work, you can simply see it with the main attacks it uses. Suggesting that you can even remotely try tanking is like telling a new prot warrior who doesn't like shields and asks "Well I rather not wear a shield because it looks cooler to tank with just a sword like a fencer would do and simply dodge and avoid attacks" and someone comes up and says "Yeah sure, you can do that...just be prepared to lose a whopping alot of damage reduction and wanna do an upscale battle."

    95% of the community will be screaming foul at it. Same thing here and Edge is simply stating that.

    In a thread where someone is asking: Can i still dual wield? The correct answer for a site where Tankspot is known for tanking information would be "You can but it will be so detrimental to your group that you will cause more headache than anything. So my answer is I would not at all because it's not optimal."

    It's a question of how the sentence was phrased, that's all.

    Tankspot Moderator
    Twitter: Follow me on Twitter! @Krenian

    "Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24


  9. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,096
    That's pretty much how we phrased it Kren, our responses are right on the first page for everyone to see. Also, DW Frost DPS is perfectly fine and viable, so I'm not certain why you would state that Dual Wielding isn't optimal at all, unless you're simply generalizing to just tanks in the context of the post.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,442
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    That's pretty much how we phrased it Kren, our responses are right on the first page for everyone to see. Also, DW Frost DPS is perfectly fine and viable, so I'm not certain why you would state that Dual Wielding isn't optimal at all, unless you're simply generalizing to just tanks in the context of the post.
    The user spoke and asked if Dual Wield tanking was still viable and fine. It is not. From what I've read so far from the thread, the OP asked if the dual wielding business is still alive and well come 4.0.1 and it is not because it's no longer optimal and incredibly detrimental to your group.

    I was speaking out of the fact you guys are making a stand here on dual wielding when in fact there is no stand and that there's no platform for you guys to do so. The original poster's message was to ask if it was viable to dual wield tank. It isn't. Even cutting it in the fashion that the OP wasn't specific as to when you could tank with dual wielding is silly.

    Come on guys. This is the common sense I keep telling people are lacking. The guy pretty much summed it for us but now you're mincing words by saying if it's non progressive and they wanna do it, they can, but it isn't good. Just state the facts and that's all in my opinion. Giving the poor guy hope when there shouldn't be any, is just not the way things should go.

    Tankspot Moderator
    Twitter: Follow me on Twitter! @Krenian

    "Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24


  11. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,096
    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    The user spoke and asked if Dual Wield tanking was still viable and fine. It is not. From what I've read so far from the thread, the OP asked if the dual wielding business is still alive and well come 4.0.1 and it is not because it's no longer optimal and incredibly detrimental to your group.

    I was speaking out of the fact you guys are making a stand here on dual wielding when in fact there is no stand and that there's no platform for you guys to do so. The original poster's message was to ask if it was viable to dual wield tank. It isn't. Even cutting it in the fashion that the OP wasn't specific as to when you could tank with dual wielding is silly.

    Come on guys. This is the common sense I keep telling people are lacking. The guy pretty much summed it for us but now you're mincing words by saying if it's non progressive and they wanna do it, they can, but it isn't good. Just state the facts and that's all in my opinion. Giving the poor guy hope when there shouldn't be any, is just not the way things should go.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    As mentioned...

    You will technically be able to DW Tank, but, since you will have less threat, less health and less stats overall, there's absolutely no reason to do it. At least in 3.3 DWing was fairly comparable on most levels, now it will be too far behind. With no talents to support it, DW Tanking, like perm ToL form, is a thing of nostalgia.
    That was my first post in this thread, which says exactly what it needs to say, as you mentioned in your first post. It was perfectly fine and yet Edgewalker saw fit to pretend as if we were suggesting he could DW Tank.

    No one suggested that.

    We said it was possible, technically so, and if he wanted to to have fun with it, but to be warned that there were severe difficulties in doing so and as such it would not be suitable for progression content.

    We more or less agree with Edgewalker.

    And yet he saw fit to be "different" and make a post which acted as if we suggested it would be okay to DW Tank in progression content.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Re-read half the posts after yours. Also "progression" for the first few months of Cataclysm will be heroics which are quite hard in comparison to wrath heroics, and regular dungeons which are the same. "Outgearing" won't occur for, at minimum, 6-8 months.
    I'm not really sure where I had an issue with you Lulia? I am more annoyed by the attitude around here lately that suggesting people do things in way that is blatantly a poor decision is fine, that "optimizing" as a tank is half personal choice. A LOT of new tanks use this site and a LOT more will as Cataclysm launches, and language and terms are going to be misconstrued all over the place.

    Also I'm going to let this die, it seems petty, but being personally attacked for seeing a black and white issue as black and white is pretty ridiculous.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,096
    You were the one that personally attacked others for suggesting things properly, Edgewalker, because you didn't agree with specific semantics. That's the problem. There was no need to call others out for giving "poor" advice when it was the same advice worded differently. Had you simply posted your advice there wouldn't have been an issue, but you had to specifically respond to one word in my post that you disagreed with, when the general concept was in agreement: aka, DW Tanking is not going to be acceptable for progression tanking.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,029
    Is mage tanking viable?

  15. #35
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,442
    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Is mage tanking viable?
    Only when you're doing Gruul.

    Tankspot Moderator
    Twitter: Follow me on Twitter! @Krenian

    "Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24


  16. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,096
    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Is mage tanking viable?
    Never know, they might add a ranged tank fight in the xpac

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Is mage tanking viable?
    It will be an uphill battle, but go for it!

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    You were the one that personally attacked others for suggesting things properly, Edgewalker, because you didn't agree with specific semantics. That's the problem. There was no need to call others out for giving "poor" advice when it was the same advice worded differently. Had you simply posted your advice there wouldn't have been an issue, but you had to specifically respond to one word in my post that you disagreed with, when the general concept was in agreement: aka, DW Tanking is not going to be acceptable for progression tanking.
    I didn't respond to you that I am aware of?

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,096
    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    I didn't respond to you that I am aware of?
    This:

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    In Cat it won't be acceptable in any setting, threat isn't quite the faceroll it is now. It's still a faceroll, but just not to the extent...
    Which was in response to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia
    The majority of the survival loss that Acidbaron talks about, however, comes from using your talents to make the threat viable, since a 25-30% loss in threat simply won't be acceptable in most progression settings.
    Literally the word most is the only thing you disagreed with there. Or perhaps most progression.

    Also, regular dungeons, while not overgeared for it, is progression content. When I say you pretty much have to overgear it for it to work, I mean it. We're on the same page there. I still don't recommend DW Tanking, even then, we're on the same page there. But if someone wants to do it at that point, when they overgear the regular dungeons, then hey, have fun. They will probably be able to do it, even if it's sub-optimal.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    This:



    Which was in response to:



    Literally the word most is the only thing you disagreed with there. Or perhaps most progression.

    Also, regular dungeons, while not overgeared for it, is progression content. When I say you pretty much have to overgear it for it to work, I mean it. We're on the same page there. I still don't recommend DW Tanking, even then, we're on the same page there. But if someone wants to do it at that point, when they overgear the regular dungeons, then hey, have fun. They will probably be able to do it, even if it's sub-optimal.

    How is that a personal attack? I was merely stating that while a 30% loss doesn't seem bad in current terms (where tanks can do 20K+ threat without much sweat in ICC), in Cataclysm threat, at least right now, is quite a bit more difficult. Sorry if I offended with that comment, I didn't mean to.

Closed Thread

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts