Cataclysm DW Tanking

[Necroshen]

This is probably a question that has already been answered but I didn't see anything prior to posting this thread. I was wondering if anyone knows if DW tanking will still be a viable scenario when the new talents come into play?

At the moment I am a DW Tank but from what I have read so far there may not be much need for DW anymore. Does anyone have an guidence on this subject? Will DW be a purley cosmetic thing when all is said and done?

I ask because, like before, there would be an opportunity to take Nevers of Cold Steel when I consider my build.

Many thanks in advance.

[Selene]

DW tanking is pretty much dead with the changes. It is now just a gimmick, since the talent that really gives DW its "punch" is almost at the end of the Frost Talent Tree.

[Airowird]

Unfortunately, DW is now pushed to a niche in Frost only.
If you want to tank, you'll have to go (2H) Blood.
DPS options are Unholy with a 2H or Frost (either, which imho should've been DW favored, but meh)

[Chamenas]

As mentioned...

You will technically be able to DW Tank, but, since you will have less threat, less health and less stats overall, there's absolutely no reason to do it. At least in 3.3 DWing was fairly comparable on most levels, now it will be too far behind. With no talents to support it, DW Tanking, like perm ToL form, is a thing of nostalgia.

[Murderdoll]

Viable yes, Optimal no.

However I do predict we will be seeing many Blood Tanks running around with dual Rimefang's just to give everyone a headache.

[Chamenas]

Viable assumes you can do progression content as DW, and I highly doubt you'll be able to without making your healers and DPS suffer.

[Acidbaron]

DW is not viable form of tanking, either you go deep frost and do not have the survivability or either you go deep blood and then your threat won't be even close to viable.

[Chamenas]

Possible or "Technically possible" is the semantics I would prefer to term it, with emphasis on the fact that it really isn't going to be doable if you want to raid progression stuff.

[Acidbaron]

People that say it's viable are basing it currently of mechanics and abilities in wotlk where you could use dw blood tanks for even lk heroic on 25.
What means they are measuring with two different set of weights, resulting into incorrect assumptions.

First off let us agree that for a tank to be viable means they have to be able to keep mobs on them, higher threat then dps and has to be able to take damage, higher survivability then your dps classes/specs. These two criteria have to be fullfilled.

Now by those criteria we can already root out deep frost builds in terms of survivability as they are unable to get improved blood presence the mandatory 'crit immunity' talent. What probably already even means normal dungeons won't be tanked by dps dk's just swapping to the tank (blood) pressence.

So for DW to be viable in terms of survivability it has to be blood specced.

What brings us to following criteria of threat, the strength of the frost tank builds came when threat of thassarian was added, allowing rune strikes to also hit from your offhand in addition to your main hand, that's gone.

Now in addition tests have already show that in high-end gear (wotlk) that dw blood is 30% behind 2handers, that's a lot.

Now add in to the equation, that blizzard has stated that maintaining threat will be much more of a tank task and something they have to do during the entire fight and tanks may never get into a position they have a significant threat lead that they don't have to do anything, that confort zone was to be removed.

To follow up on that, tricks of the trade and misdirection threat is only a temporary boost as it fades after 30 seconds, so it will no longer help to build the tank total threat as it does now and added onto that, all passive threat reduction talents from dps classes are gone.

Making the sum of all those changes make me pull the conclusion dual wield tanking won't excist for perhaps the exception of gimmick fights.


Feel free to correct me on any point i made, if you see any errors.

[Chamenas]

Oh, I agree. I hope you didn't feel I disagreed at any point. I'm certain Murderdoll mostly agrees as well and we're probably dithering into a different understanding of the word "viable", but you and I have the same definition of viable, a definition which has sort of become standard in the WoW community, so viable isn't a good word to use. I prefer "technically possible" as mentioned earlier, "technically possible" essentially means you CAN do it but you SHOULDN'T. Yes. You can wield two one-handed weapons and tank, but it would be equivalent to a Warrior or Paladin tanking without a Shield. You could possibly do it on content that you vastly outgear, but on any serious progression you're hamstringing yourself and your raid unnecessarily.

[Acidbaron]

I'm not, I just wanted to add a clear cut clarification why it isn't a real option in detail, so that people wouldn't read my earlier comment as an "cause i said so" arguement.

[Satorri]

You will not suffer any survival loss from Dual Wielding, you can just expect about a ~25-30% rough ballpark loss in threat output.

If you want to do it, have a ball, just so long as you get into it realizing you are working up hill. =)

[Edgewalker]

I'm not, I just wanted to add a clear cut clarification why it isn't a real option in detail, so that people wouldn't read my earlier comment as an "cause i said so" arguement.

Blood talents are built around using a 2 handed weapon. They will also likely remove the 1 handed tanking weapon enchants, which again will be another disadvantage.
Frost tanking, the dual wield tree, will be the equivalent of tanking as a ret paladin, or a fury warrior - possible, but a detriment to yourself, to the group, and generally a waste of everyones time.

[Chamenas]

You will not suffer any survival loss from Dual Wielding, you can just expect about a ~25-30% rough ballpark loss in threat output.

If you want to do it, have a ball, just so long as you get into it realizing you are working up hill. =)

Usually the combination of stamina from 2 1-handed weapons is less than 1 2-handed weapon, perhaps my experience is off, but if we use:
Bloodvenom Blade as an example we get 138 stamina.

Bryntroll is 161 stamina.

Heck, even an iLvl 251 axe:
Ramaladni's Blade of Culling has 164 stamina, which is more than the combined 1-handers. There's a definite, albeit minor survival loss.

The majority of the survival loss that Acidbaron talks about, however, comes from using your talents to make the threat viable, since a 25-30% loss in threat simply won't be acceptable in progression settings.

[Edgewalker]

The majority of the survival loss that Acidbaron talks about, however, comes from using your talents to make the threat viable, since a 25-30% loss in threat simply won't be acceptable in most progression settings.

In Cat it won't be acceptable in any setting, threat isn't quite the faceroll it is now. It's still a faceroll, but just not to the extent...

[Chamenas]

In Cat it won't be acceptable in any setting, threat isn't quite the faceroll it is now. It's still a faceroll, but just not to the extent...

It might be doable when you're talking post-progression. I should have clarified: it won't be acceptable in progression settings, but may be possible elsewhere though still not recommended and likely a good way to get kicked out of pugs and/or have your healers and dps generally dislike you.

[Reev]

In Cat it won't be acceptable in any setting, threat isn't quite the faceroll it is now. It's still a faceroll, but just not to the extent...

QFT. Tanking in the beta is a lot more interesting than it is on live, currently. That may be because I'm tanking a level 84 instance at level 82 in greens, but still, it kept me occupied in a way that no Wrath heroic ever did, even when they were fresh and new.

[Acidbaron]

Yes, as lulia said pretty much the idea of survivability loss would come for going for a deep frost threat build, what i also pointed out to not really be an option.

Also edgewalker that's basically what i said, i'm not saying it's viable i'm actually making the case that it isn't, could be that i misunderstood what you wrote however.

[Chamenas]

Edgewalker is just a pretty heavy progression raider himself and doesn't like language which suggests that something might be doable when it isn't practical in a progression setting. Satorri and myself prefer to be a bit more lenient in our language, suggesting that something might not be a good idea, but not saying not to do it outright. Just a difference in styles of helping, in the end, all of us are likely going to spec Blood and wear a 2-handed weapon to tank.

[Satorri]

NO LULIA!

You're doing it wrong! It is black and white, night and day, right and wrong! If you aren't doing it the best way, you're doing it the WRONG way! Get it right!