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Thread: 4.0.1 Protection Warrior Builds.

  1. #81
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    BnT is a great AoE tanking build, especially tanks that are still doing heroics will love it.
    Field Dressing: 6% extra healing for ALL your healers with just 2 talent points? Yes please!
    Blood Craze: Granted, not spectacular in a 25man, but in heroics and 10mans I see it heal for quite a bit compared to the amount of healing you receive. Remember it procs when you take damage, so it's a filler for when e.g. Sindy when your healers have the casting debuff and/or tombs.

    On the other hand:
    Cruelty only buffs Shield Slam. Sure, it's our biggest move, but it's not our only one.
    War Academy: If you're taking it for HS, Incite gives more overall damage than WA (if you read one of my older posts: I made an error, Incite is better!)
    If you take it for Cleave, I would actually debate that BnT is equal to it, especially on larger packs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
    Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides

  2. #82
    Join Date
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    The threat per second generated by rend is almost non existant. It does pitiful damage and does not do bonus threat. If you are glyphed for cleave and thunderclap you have 3 abilities that can hit practically the entire pack. I would be willing to bet that weaving in rend with blood and thunder actually loses you threat compared to just tab targeting with cleave, TC, and shockwave.

    Cruelty increases critical by 10% on our largest single target threat ability. Regardless of heroic or raid when you start grouping with fury warriors pulling 20k dps you need all the single target threat you can.

    War academy I am taking for HS which has great synergy with incite which I am also taking for HS, 15% dmg bonus + more crit + vengeance = huge hit that does alot of threat.

    Field dressing = 6% of your total healing. If you think about this from a math view point it still is pretty shitty. Imagine you are a tank with 60k health and a healer out there is casting a big enough heal to tick your entire life bar, this talent would give them a HUGE 3600 more health per cast. Now not many healers cast 60k heals at a time so for the sake of argument I went over to world of logs to check one of the top healers for icc 25 normal. Some holy priest from europe. His average Renew ticks for about 1800, which with this fantastically awesoem talent would increase a HUGE 102.48 health per tick. That seems super awesome and makes me want to spec back into it instead of the enormous threat gain I could get from other talents.

    Just for the pleasantness I was getting from looking at how great field dressing must obviously be, I checked and if the main tank for marrowgar on this particular 25 man normal ICC run had been using it, he would have gained 19,000 additional heals for the entire boss fight. That's like, almost 1/3 of my entire health bar, obviously a huge huge help and necessary.

  3. #83
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    BnT on 3+ mobs works, it's 1 GCD for an entire pull (because you're using TC anyway). Don't believe me? do the math yourself and you'll see! Besides, not like it will slow down your TC, SW or Cleaves.

    I don't see how WA is great because of Vengeance? Vengeance does not scale differently because you have WA. Furthermore, as I said before, 3/3 Incite + 2/3 War Academy is more damage & threat than 2/3 Incite + 3/3 War Academy.

    6% from a math point of view is a LOT in this game. 3% damage reduction on Vigilance is worth removing. 1% extra DPS is worth a respec for most progress guilds, requiring 6% less healing cast on you, which is basicly the same as taking 6% less damage, for the lowely cost of 2 talent points is about the best tanking talent you can get (It even beats Toughness on a per-point base)
    Do you know how much spell power that Priest needs to get that 102 extra healing on his Renew ticks?
    Do you know how much 19k 'free' healing is?
    Do you know that decent tanks take Blood Draining serious, even though it only heals for a fraction of Field Dressing?
    If that tank would have dropped below 15k HP past 25% on Marrowgar, this talent essentially saved his life. And this is even on normal, on Heroic, this talent could definately save your life if a heealer gets spiked during Bonestorm and 1-2 are out of range to heal you.

    As a tank, I'll take any talent that reduces my need to be healed, because on a single target boss where healing actually matters, I'll have Vengeance stacked so high threat talents don't mean shit anyway.
    As a healer, I can guarantee you that 6% extra tank healing is NOT 'pretty shitty'. In fact, it's what can be the difference between wiping because my heal didn't crit enough or getting a realm first.
    As a former raid leader and officer, I think any tank who takes <5% threat over 6% healing taken needs to get his/her priorities straight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
    Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides

  4. #84
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    Have to agree with Wartotem here.... 6% healing is a good amount. The analogy of a healer dropping one heal on you for 60k isnt really a good representation of the ability. Imagine a fight like Festergut where you have constant heals from several healers over the course of 2-3 minutes. I pulled a fight out of WoL that one shot Heroic Festergut. 3:13 was the total length of the fight and they had a warrior off tanking. The total damage he took was about 700k.

    Assuming he was specced into field dressing, would have been "healed more" by around 45k, over 193 seconds, or 233 heals per second. For two talent points, that sounds like a lot.

    This also doesnt consider the occasional time when a tank drops low and that 6% got him back to a level that kept him alive. Tough to calculate the math on that but its a real benefit.
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daderic View Post
    Field dressing = 6% of your total healing. If you think about this from a math view point it still is pretty shitty. Imagine you are a tank with 60k health and a healer out there is casting a big enough heal to tick your entire life bar, this talent would give them a HUGE 3600 more health per cast. Now not many healers cast 60k heals at a time so for the sake of argument I went over to world of logs to check one of the top healers for icc 25 normal. Some holy priest from europe. His average Renew ticks for about 1800, which with this fantastically awesoem talent would increase a HUGE 102.48 health per tick. That seems super awesome and makes me want to spec back into it instead of the enormous threat gain I could get from other talents.

    Just for the pleasantness I was getting from looking at how great field dressing must obviously be, I checked and if the main tank for marrowgar on this particular 25 man normal ICC run had been using it, he would have gained 19,000 additional heals for the entire boss fight. That's like, almost 1/3 of my entire health bar, obviously a huge huge help and necessary.
    Using current content to display how good or bad things are when its made for future content is not very convincing.

    Look the simple fact is this, in Cata healer mana will actually matter. As a tank your job is to survive first and foremost. You can't survive with a healer who has no mana. + Healing talents are worth their weight in gold in these conditions, regardless of how small they may seem on paper.

    Threat is a secondary concern and it comes from using your abilities properly more than anything else. We are moving back to the old days where DPS will actually have to wait a couple seconds before they unload. If some DPS pulls off of you (and you were using your abilities properly) its not because you didn't take Incite or War Academy, its because they are still stuck in Wrath while the rest of us are in Cata.
    Last edited by Bodasafa; 11-02-2010 at 03:40 PM.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa View Post
    Look the simple fact is this, in Cata healer mana will actually matter. As a tank your job is to survive first and foremost. You can't survive with a healer who has no mana. + Healing talents are worth their weight in gold in these conditions, regardless of how small they may seem on paper.
    I am very familiar with the limited mana model. Back when I was raiding in Everquest, I did it as a Druid. Healing was done to Cleric Baselines, and Druids (due to their slightly higher offensive nature) could only heal for 80% of the amount at 75% of the efficiency as the equivalent Cleric spell. The longest encounter I've done in WoW, is still less then 15 minutes. I did several raids in EQ which the end boss encounter ran a minimum of an hour.

    This taught me several things I expect to be helpful in Cata..
    • Assuming you can meet or beat the enrage timer, DPS is not your primary concern, having mana for the entire encounter duration +- 15 seconds is the primary concern. If you run out of mana 25% before the boss dies, you will never beat the encounter unless you drastically increase your Raid's DPS
    • It's easier to heal smarter, then it is to increase your Raid's DPS by a large margin.
    • Because the length (and thus chances) of your attempt depend on how long you can sustain healing, anything to boost or negate the requirement of healing is of exceptional value.
    • In WoW, this will translate to requiring greater situational awareness as well as increased focus on self survivability.
    • Because of this, talents such as Field Dressing, Blood Craze or Talents which reduce damage taken such as a Shaman's Ancestral Resolve are more likely to be taken since they directly increase fight duration by allowing healers to sustain healing for longer periods of time.
    • Further, for classes that can, this may result in their breaking the optimal DPS rotation to mix in things like Drain Life, Death Strike, or the like for the same exact reason.
    • Additionally, I predict this will place increased focus on items such as Lightwells, Health Stones and Health Potions.
    Which should have the following impact to guilds:
    • Healers will not be able to 'mask' bad play through healing.
    • Players whom take drastically more damage then they should will be left to die, and / or replaced.
    • Guilds that 'brute forced' their way through content because their healers were masking mistakes will suddenly find it much more difficult to progress unless they adapt.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    150
    Ok sure, but this isn't a Cataclysm spec thread, it's a 4.0.1 spec thread. Healer mana doesn't matter right now, and most people are running content under their gear level. In the current scenario, 6% healing isn't all that important. That said, neither is threat. Vengeance stacking is absurd in current content and should put you well on top of the threat stack (assuming DPS allows you a moment to establish some baseline threat and get Vengeance pumping).

    I think a fair argument can be made for either talent choice. Personally, I have a spec for raid tanking with maximum survivabilty (Blood Craze + Field Dressing) and a farm spec for fun and max damage/threat (War Academy + Cruelty).

    Come Cataclysm, the story will change because no one will overgear content anymore, and survivability will become the primary concern of tanks again. That's not the situation we're in right now, though.

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