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Thread: The Anatomy of Raid Leading

  1. #1
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    The Anatomy of Raid Leading

    This thread will not “teach” you how to raid lead. I personally believe you can’t really be taught how to be a good leader and instead must learn how to do it yourself. This thread will help you with determining what goes in to successful raid leading, and the theories behind it, but it will not tell you what to do.
    There is no perfect way to raid lead that works in every single situation 100% of the time. Figure out what works best for you, and go from there. I also do not pretend to know everything there is to know about raid leading. I highly encourage other raid leaders to let me know if you thing I am missing a method for a given system, or an entire system.

    ideally this whole thread can become a wealth of ideas an concepts for upstart raid leaders to be thinking about when they are deciding how to go about their raid leading business.

    Keeping with the theme of anatomy, different aspects of raid leading are broken down in to systems. Each system is connected to the rest, and each is equally important.




    The systems of raid leading:

    • The Respect system
    • The Failure system
    • The Communication system



    The Respect System:

    As a raid leader you have authority. If your raiders do not respect your authority you are pretty much doomed to fail at some point in time. In the context of this guide, respect will be defined along the lines of “if I tell you to do something, you will do it whether you agree with it or not”
    Remember: your raiders do not have respect you as a person in order to respect your authority. There is a difference.

    Methods of achieving respect:



    Popularity

    If people like you they are more likely to respect you. If people respect you, they are more likely to respect your authority.


    Skill

    If people know you are skilled, they are more likely to respect your ability to accomplish tasks. If they respect your ability to accomplish tasks, they are more likely to respect your decisions (IE, your authority)


    Fear

    If people fear possible repercussions for failing to complete what you tell them to do, they are more are likely to do what you say. If they are more likely to do what you say, they are more likely to respect your authority. This method relies heavily on how you handle the failure system.

    Personal opinion:
    I believe that it is important to find a healthy balance between all three of the above methods of achieving respect. I personally tend to focus more on the skill and fear aspects of commanding respect, and let my popularity be controlled by how I use fear and respond to failures via my communication style (explained later).


    The Failure System:

    This system focuses on how you deal with failures of any sort, whether it is wipes, or simple mistakes.


    At the end of the day raid leading is about getting other people to work together to kill bosses, and you can’t kill bosses if you are constantly making big mistakes. Raid leaders are the ones trying to prevent mistakes from happening. There are multiple ways of doing this, and there are multiple different magnitudes for each method.


    Methods:


    Positive reinforcement

    Tell people when they are doing things correctly, encourage good behavior, etc. In general it is most common to give positive reinforcement publicly as opposed to privately, even if you are only encouraging a single person, though there is nothing wrong with privately giving individuals positive reinforcement. One issue that commonly is associated with this method when used exclusively is that they will either not know when they are making mistakes, or will assume they are not making them.


    Humiliation


    Tell people when they are doing something incorrectly, and do it in such a way that the one that made the mistake feels embarrassed for making said mistake. Both public and private humiliation are commonly used. Be aware that each individual person may respond differently to either private or public humiliation. One issue that is commonly associated with this method when used exclusively is that raiders may experience a pseudo ‘depression’ because they begin to think that because they are making mistakes that they are incapable of doing anything correctly.

    Magnitudes:


    Magnitudes are what determine what acts you will call out using the above methods.
    I will only be providing two polar examples of the magnitudes of the above methods, but in reality you need to determine for yourself what exactly it is that you want to be calling out.


    Legally Blind


    Only calls out mistakes and/or good actions of colossal proportions, such as the tank sitting down and getting 1 shot, or your fury warrior shield walling and tanking the boss for the last 10% after your tank sat down and got 1 shot.


    The Eye of Sauron



    They see everything, and let you know that they see everything. They call out every mistake and/or every good thing that happens
    Again, these are extreme examples, and it is important for each raid leader to determine what they want to be calling out.

    Personal opinion:
    Again I believe that it is important to find a balance between positive reinforcement and humiliation. I definitely lean heavily towards the public humiliation side of things.




    The Communication System:

    Communication is your way of delivering orders, and one way of dealing with failures. This is a system is all about what you say, and how you say it. It’s important that as a raid leader you understand the implications of what you say and how it will affect your raid.



    These implications are modified by how each individual perceives language, and how they process information.



    For example one person might essentially ‘seize up’ and stop functioning if you yell at them in a humiliating manner, where as another person might play better as a result of the yelling.



    I’m not even going to go really in depth with my examples because they are everywhere, and because if I were to try and accurately describe a good number of them this post would be longer than agg’s EHP thread, and I would prefer that didn’t happen.

    What I will however say is that the better you are at observing how people function, and how they react to varying amounts of stimulus will determine how well you are able to communicate with people.



    It’s all about mind games. Find peoples buttons, and push them in such a way that they do what you want them to do, which in this case is killing bosses.

    Personal Opinion:
    I lead with a fist made out of caustic sarcasm. I have partial photographic memory and as a result of that I make sure people do not forget about certain mistakes, and I will bring them up at different times just for the sake of bringing them up. I am pretty vulgar with my approach and I do not have a problem with yelling at people because I believe people do not like being yelled at so they will try and not make mistakes so they can prevent being yelled at. Whenever I call someone out for a mistake I attempt to make it both humiliating, and hilarious. If the target of my mockery doesn’t know whether they should be laughing or crying when I am done I feel I am doing a good job. I also do this because I find that it makes my other raiders pay attention to when I am calling out someone’s mistakes, and if they are listening to what mistake was just made, they will hopefully be less likely to repeat that mistake.





    Now with the “guide” out of the way, on to the discussion!




    The Discussion:


    Rules:
    1. Do not try and play your style of raid leading off as being better than other styles; it’s not.
    2. Be civil about it. Just because you do not like a certain style of raid leading doesn’t mean it’s dumb, or that it sucks.
    Formatting:

    1. Give your personal style of raid leading a catchy name and put it at the top
    2. Tell us what sort of content you lead (10man, 25 man, top50, casual, hardcore, etc)
    3. Discuss in detail what methods you use for each system of raid leading. Tell us what makes your style different from others, why it works for you, etc. Give us a feel for how you lead your raids.
    4. Discuss the pros and cons of your style of raid leading. (YES THERE ARE CONS TO YOUR STYLE, IF YOU DON’T PUT ANY I WILL HARASS YOU UNTIL YOU INCLUDE SOME)
    5. Tell us why you chose this style of raid leading.
    6. Give us any other information you feel is pertinent


    and... GO!
    Last edited by Thegreatme; 11-03-2010 at 07:58 AM.

    |TGM UI |Fury Warrior Guide | How To Use Landsoul's Spreadsheet| The Numbers Game |
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  2. #2
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    Nice post rly enjoyed reading it.Now on to topic!

    I am raid leading last 1,5 years.Started first at 10 man raids than to 25 ,and after that time I got to point to raid lead progression raids and all that come with that.How can I describe my self as raid leader with some name ,well let me think.Imo I am kind of soft raid leader that rarely yells but when I do that it means that it is rly serious.
    I never insulted player ,harassed him or w/e to get him humiliated.But I don't hesitate to point fail.Biggest mistake that player can do in raids that I am leading is to try to explain what I saw and find reason to made him like he did all good.Things like "it was not my shadow trap" is things that I rly don't buy.I always prepare ppl before some boss,must say that I rly try to dig out all I can find to make us prepared for raid.Imo that make us kill bosses that some other guilds have problems.I talk to players a lot on vent ,before ,after raid,during day.Simply any member can speak with me any time when I am online.I am more like friend to them than someone they should fear from.Is that good ?NO IT IS NOT !!!!!!That is my downside as raid leader,to much friendly.But that is personality problem.So tho you can choose ,be strict and represent nemesis that will lead guild to progress but ppl will fear you,or be friendly have fun part but prepare to have emo situations and live with it.
    In general raid leading is big stress.Amount of stress is connected to skill value of you guild,recruitment,goals about progression,communication with your GM.Yes sometime your GM and fellow officers are biggest enemy in your job as raid leader.If raid leader is not making raid setup but his fellow officers and GM do that (they will always respect rotation in their part of guild mele ,casters etc ),your raid can become a big big pain.That is hardest part of raid leading ,to make raid progressive with setup that you will never choose.So you need to be prepared to change tactic on fly by fast preview of classes you have in raid.
    So you have few ways how to do as raid leader.By me ways will be determined by your personality.What you want from game?Are you ready to get enemies in game?Are you ready to teach ppl or you want polished players that are top in their class?What guild are you in?
    Many things affect raid leader role,but on end we choose alone how we will react.Guild support need to exist and without that no way you can do your role.That is what I think about this,maybe I forgot some things but in general this is more less basics.
    Last edited by Peca; 10-06-2010 at 04:20 PM.

  3. #3
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    Ok.
    the main post here has some flaws in my opinion. NEVER HUMILIATE A RAID MEMBER. They will leave, they will lose all respect for you, and others will not want to raid with you leading. Punish in Private, Praise in Public. I will come back to this.

    Who am I and why am I talking about raid leading?
    I am a former Royal Naval Officer and so have revived extensive training and experience in Leadership and Management. I have Lead and/or Raid Lead wow guilds since Classic. I don't know everything, and everyone finds their own style of leadership. I would say the most important thing is being willing to learn. I am still learning and will be all my life.

    Respect.
    This is a tricky thing to manage. You need your members to respect you and your abilities. This is something you have to earn to start with in a new guild, and you can lose in seconds.

    Most importantly, Knowledge, know you abilities and you limitations. If you don't know something never be scared to ask, you will just look silly if you don't and it wipes you. If it's a new fight, explain that it is a learning experience for you all. All of the other parts below will add into this if done well.

    Do not mistake Respect with popularity, you can not be friends with all you guys. Respect is from you actions not your friends.

    Patience.
    People get things wrong. Don't shout, don't rip people to piece's, especially in the middle of a fight or raid. If someone has a problem, Take them to one side, explain what they are doing wrong and how they need to fix it. Mid fight, calmly but firmly give a fast instruction. Wipes happen. Keep reprimands private where possible, ofc inform your officers of them, but people will respect being told reprimanded in private, they will resent being told in in public.

    Delegation.
    You can't do everything, use your people to their abilities. Get your class leaders and veterans passing on there knowledge. Use your people to call out things you can see happening or make calls when you are involved with a diff part of the fight. This takes pressure of yourself so you can concentrate on the important stuff.

    Control.
    On a new, or hard fight, you and your officers need to control the raid. A few voices giving short, but accurate commands. Keep other chat to a minimum.

    Style.
    Find a style that fits you and stick with it. Everyone is different. Some people will be big loud and scary, some people will be quite with time for everyone. neither is wrong, neither is right, everyone has their own style, if you try and be someone you are not, you will fail.

    Disclaimer.
    The above is my opinion, you may agree or disagree, but please read it and don't have a go for the sake of it. If you cant understand a bit, I apologise, I am very dyslexic, I will try and fix any major errors if you PM them to me. The above is not the be all and end all of leadership, But a small bit on key points to help people.

    Finally, not all of you out there are raid leaders or guild leaders. if you want to, give it a try, find a raid leader you like and ask them to back you up as you settle in and get used to it.

    I hope this post helps, thank you for reading to the bottom.
    Last edited by Georonin; 11-09-2010 at 06:52 AM.

  4. #4
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    Find a style that fits you and stick with it
    This is the most important thing - and it has to work with your guild atmosphere.

    We do not use public humiliation - the reason is because we've seen it basically cause what you're trying to prevent as the raider gets so nervous he/she is going to screw up again.

    We do use mods like Phoenix Style - but it is broadcast into a separate channel that is optional for raiders to be in. They are all aware of it. Highlights of major fails are reiterated into officer chat. If something is an issue, we schedule a time after raid to discuss it. This can be tunnel vision, lack of listening, pulling aggro, breaking CC etc.

    I think expectations were left out. No matter what style, you need to set the expectation. Your raid should know what to expect- before they joined your raid.

    I agree that delegation is an important part -and knowing when to ask if you don't know something or if someone else is better at doing the job - if you fail to own up to your own lack of knowledge or mistakes, then you will lose the respect of your raiders - and you can't very well expect them to be forthcoming and outright if you aren't doing that as well. It goes back to expectations.

    Fair Play - the rules are the same for everyone. If you sitting player X for failing to dodge the goo or dying to a gas ooze for 10th time, you should sit player Y for the same issues, and it should not matter if player Y is your brother in law, an officer, etc.

    No matter what your raid lead style, one thing is keep in mind is that you would not be raiding without the cohesion of the other people in the group.

    As far as my own style, it's taken time. In vanilla wow, I was much like the O.P. Times have changed, and so have I. Today, when I have to raid lead, it's with a very calm voice. I take a few deep breaths when someone has done something incredible stupid, and explain mechanics or what needs to happen. In the same token, if it's a text book beautiful one shot, I'm the first one to congratulate the raid. I've dropped the obscenities for the most part, and I pop in a tension breaker here or there. There is a distinct difference in the raid depending on who is leading. You can see this- and if you haven't, find a backup raid leader - and ask that person to run a raid one night. Just sit back and watch. People respond silently. I do have a balance of all three on the afore stated respect system, but it is a different composition than my primary raid leaders.
    Breaking Out Fat Bright Crayons for the raid challenged since 2005!
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    Currently recruiting CORE RAIDERS & Casual members, apply here!

  5. #5
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    Leadership is the deliberate creation of the act and spirit of following. The act alone does not imply leadership.

    Leaders are not born, they are trained. Leadership is a skill, like plumbing.

    In WoW, all authority is created directly by the permission of the followers.

    Only a fool would believe that humiliation is leadership.

  6. #6
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    Onyxstar has some extremely good points, Fair play and expectations are something I missed and are important. However I would tailor actions taken for fuck ups after sitting them out (ofc set them out after a few fuck ups if its just them), but when taking them to one side trying to explain how ti fix it you can use various diff techniques depending on the person (ok have a default tell you know the person). I find Most people react best to coaching, having you explain what the are doing wrong and what they need to do. But one or 2 of my guild members (usually the more experienced I have to add) you tend to need a more firm approach with of, do this, not that ffs or your out. This is hard to get right, and unless you know what makes the people tick, stick with one approach.

    There is no Catchy Style leadership type. "A good leader uses all the tools in his arsenal to get the most out of his men" So read all of this, like the styles or not, there may be a time when you need to use it.
    Last edited by Georonin; 11-10-2010 at 05:31 AM.

  7. #7
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    The problem is that raiders don't fall into discrete categories. There are people who want to give 110%, all the time, and who will ruthlessly seek out and exploit any and every tiny little edge they can find, and there are people who would put the tank on /follow and go get a sandwich if they thought they could get away with it, and there are people at all points in-between. If you treat them all the same, you're just setting yourself up for failure.

    If I make a mistake, I know it, or at least I suspect it. I don't need the raid leader to tell me that I screwed up or remind me that I'm not supposed to stand in the fire or treat me like a child and call out every single taunt swap. I wouldn't tolerate my real-life boss humiliating me in public, so why would I put up with a relative stranger haranguing me over the Internet?

    If someone is clearly phoning it in, that's different, and that's where you should use your shape-up-or-ship-out speech. Maybe someone is just really bad and is physically or mentally incapable of playing at the appropriate level; tell them the problem, and remove them. No amount of screaming will get a Little League pitcher to throw a 95mph fastball, so there's no point in trying.

  8. #8
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    This is a great discussion. TGM I think the words you used to describe the different systems are a combination of leadership styles and qualities. A raid leader has to have certain qualities that will be the key to the raid/guild having success:

    Honesty-If the person in charge isn't straightforward and honest members will pick up on it and be turned off. Everyone wants to know that the person running the raid will tell them the truth, and will never lie to cover for someone. There should be zero backstabbing, no "fluffy" criticism, and no dishonesty from the voice you need to trust. An honest leader will admit when something did not work.

    Forward-Looking-The whole point of leadership is figuring out where to go from where you are now. If the raid leader won't push some progression and have a plan for it, many members will leave to find someone who is more forward-looking. A great raid leader has a plan and desires the end goals.

    Competent-Raiders really desire to follow someone who knows what they are doing. This doesn't mean that the raid leader has to know every trick about every fight, but they have to know what they are doing .

    Inspiring-People want to be inspired. A good raid leader can do this in many ways. Telling stories about personal experience, prior raiding or experiences outside of wow is a good way to do this. A good raid leader will have some charisma and will endear raiders to his/her cause.

    Intelligence-People can tell if their leader is intelligent by observing behavior and attitude. An intelligent leader will gently lead people toward an understanding, even though the raid leader already knows the right answer. The main concept here is that an intelligent raid leader focuses on helping others learn and doesn't demonstrate how smart they are in an arrogant way. The intelligent raid leader has humility.

  9. #9
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    The planning bit is good, Something we do which is very useful is after every raid we have a quick private debrief with my officers where they can put forward any problem areas they see arising, its a good system as you wont see everything and its a time to plan for the next raid.

  10. #10
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    I have been raid leading since just after Wrath came out. Not the best by any means but I deal mostly with 25 man content and run a top two or three guild on my server. I made this "Raid Leading 101" Blog on my website because I was getting asked by other guild/raid leaders how I go about business and the basics to making sure your raid is successful. By all means, this isn't an in depth look at the psychology of raid leading but, it will give novice/amateur raid leaders a very good idea of how to keep the raid under control and may even shed some light to more veteran leaders. Feel free to critique me. Part 1 and 2 are complete with the third part coming shortly. The blog should be fully visable to the public.Thanks a million! If anyone wants to subscribe to the forum without signing up for the site, just message me. No big deal at all.

    http://impact-guild.com/blogs/church.php

  11. #11
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    I was very surprised that you are even mentioning humiliation as a method. Who cares if it works or not. It's a fucking indecent/arrogant thing to do. How does anyone in your guild tolerate that? I do like playing at a high level in raids and downing bosses, but for god's sake, it's still a game.

    In my humble opinion, if the raid leader fails at making the raiding process fun for their members, then he/she is not good at it. It shouldn't be about the results, it should be about how you are achieving them.

    To be perfectly honest though, your post is well written and has some useful points in it.

  12. #12
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    Unfortunately - Humiliation is used as a teaching factor in several guilds. Think about mods such as Ensidia Fails/ PhoenixStyle - do you think most people set those mods up to spam in separate channels? It completely depends on the guilds. Fun doesn't always = progression- sometimes it derails it.

    I am not a believer in using humiliation as a tactic, but I do believe that those mods mentioned above allow for allot of useful knowledge that can be utilized to improve play style and tactics. It will tell you where your problem areas lie. I actually have phoenixstyle running- in a separate channel - specifically useful information goes into officer adhoc, and all information goes into the separate channel. All raiders know that channel name, and it's their option to join it or not. I'm not going to take away "enjoyment" of the game, but if I'm leading a raid, it's my responsibility to know what went wrong and how to correct it.

    It IS a game, but it is one I choose to succeed at- and be organized and informed about. Do I believe that because it is virtual it justifies treating people like crap? No, not at all.

  13. #13
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    Hi I am uhhdie, i think your review of raid leading isnt half bad, it covers most of what i have seen. I tend to use two styles all dependent on the type of guild/run i am leading
    A) Drill Sgt Method
    B) The guy who is high method

    I lead 10m/25m progression runs and occasionally pug runs. Mostly laid back but also a few hardcore.

    The drill sgt method is quiet simple, you do your job because i can and will replace you. This is the hardcore group type. It involved humiliation and if your team doesnt have major confidence in you or isnt like you, hardcore, or cant take critizism to get it right. You can fall flat on your face. However you get rid of the not serious people and the people who dont want to give it there all. If you get a group that fits this hardcore method you can shoot fast and far. Its doesnt involve any vulgar like most other methods like this one i have seen because i have found there are other ways to make people cry and do there job then saying stuff people may find offencive and making yourself look stupid. This methid centers around a quick exsplantion then a pull. During the fight everyone relys on there wits, reflexes, dbm, and pure skill. I explain as the fight is going on and as things apear and it also come with you haveing to also know how to play each and every class/spec even if you dont actually have one of that spec or class. It works well because it relys mostly on the raid leader to do things instead of each person pulling there own weight persay and it has less room for failure if you are moving your team around like chess peices. In 25m you require a few people to help aka its being a drill sgt of a platoon the uping it to a company and still being the only drill sgt. It doesnt work, therefore you need people who do things alot like you, simplar, or compliment you style very well even if its oposite.

    The person who is high method is the laid back method. You make sure everyone is happy and explain before hand what to do. This is alot like most of the WotLK stuff. Quick simple and idiot proof. You explain each roll, mdps, rdps, healer, and tank, in differnt sections while covering the fight. This is more of everyone has to do it right techique where there is no room for error. However that is the down fall, it is a laid back method that requires alot of hardcore self sufficent people. This also works well with simple methods that get rid of error/non tankspot methods. Tankspot methods work better with hardcore teams because they do it quick and efficent because they are coordinated and can take critizism and do what they are told. Where as in a non tankspot you can tell people like healers for magmaw to stand here... heal this person... when u hear STEAM run to other side which is here... and rdps.... stand here with healers.... kill boss....kill adds....kill boss.... kill adds....kill new boss.... back to adds. This method relys on a few people in the group to be able to carry more wieght then there own and others to pull there weight and leaves room for little less, such as a first time guild run in a new cata raid. The perfect example of the weight is BH. You have a group where the 6 dps are in order of dps. 16k, 15k, 13k, 11k, 8k, 7.5k.... as you know in most BH runs they want 10k+ however others make up for the lost.... its a laid back methid that involves..."hey try this" and/or "your doing good but try to watch this" and basically keeps vent quiet except for DBM messages from the raid leader.

    I chose these because they can be easily modified for each group you are leading. Some people dont like being critizied and just like to have fun, where as others like killing things what ever the cost. Every situation and almost every group of progression day is different in the people/personalitys or moods of the people that day.

    The only thing i can really tell just about every leader is, you out rank in position in a raid group if you are leading it, in my case i lead most run the guild leader was in who lead most runs before i came along. They basically cant say no if they respect you or like the way you lead or your authority. Therefore what you want almost always goes, but in some cases people like the gm want to throw in advice, use it once there way and then look at your way and if it was good, try to incorporate the good into it. The key to sucess is not in the skill as much as it is in the leader. Some leaders you will follow to the end of the earth where others you wouldnt follow them through a puddle of water. The more respect you have the better you can lead your team, the better they will listen, and the more you will acomplish. I am 14 and have held officer rank in most guilds who have made a rule later on of no one under age of 18 or 21 allowed, even while i was in the guild. I was called alittle childish sometimes but yet everyone in the run was double my age and asking me what to do.... leaders have to put effort into all they do... research each and every method strategy and work it like a puzzle to find the right one, then it is a chess game inside the instance.
    Not only does these post help with in game leading, i beleive most can be linked to Real Life leading in your occupation, work, school, or any situation you come across.... and also iniative is also key to a leader, if you sit around your spot can be taken fast by someone else and you get behind and the other who are following you are forced to be where you are because of your mistakes.

  14. #14
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    This is your style of the "drill sergeant" method. Everyone - and I believe that is indeed the purpose of this thread - has his or her one style and technique. Personally, we use a fairly laid back but hard core approach. There is no humilation or open criticism. People do get replaced if problems arise. It's all done extremely efficiently and adult like.

    Do we have fun? Sure, "BOOBIES OMG" but when stupid shit happens, all it takes is one reminder, why are we here, and what is the expectation.. and the raid falls in..

    We routinely cut raiders that aren't making the cut- these are people we have tried to work with, spent time and effort on, and eventually determined, are not up to the raid standard- so, I think in everything - it is all dependent on the expectation and tone you set for your guild and raid atmosphere.

    Just my opinion on it.

    Onyx
    Breaking Out Fat Bright Crayons for the raid challenged since 2005!
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  15. #15
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    Hi everyone, I'm Deathundone and I have been playing wow since the start of BC. I was not a big raider untill Wrath and near the end of wrath I started to lead raids occasionaly. Almost all of them were pug raids that I did on alts, but non the less I was raid leading. A little background on me. I'm a seargent in the US Army and have a lot of experience leading large groups of people to accomplish a task. Uhhdie is right on track with almost all the ways I run a raid. If I'm with a core group of friends that I am sure know all the fights. I take more of an iron fist drill seargent approach. It's quick explination, fast pulls, and little room for error. I rely on everyone knowing what needs to be done and not having to correct. When I do correct it's quick and sharp. This is not a good method for the situation I'm about to be in. I have been asked to be the GM/Raid leader for a new guild that we are starting up that is mostly soldiers. Granted this will make life easier for me because we all have plenty of experience with following orders without questions to get the job done. One thing you learn in the army is to do what you are told, and if you have a problem or question about it, bring it up after the task is accomplished to know why you did it. Not before the task because it could mean life or death in our line of work. For the situation that I'm headed into, where there are far more people in the raid that have not played a long time or do not have a lot of raid experience I'm going to have to balance between the drill seargent and the laid back. I will have to give more positive reinforcement and less snipping of peoples heads during encounters and pull them to the side after the fight to let them know what happened. Also, I will have to take my time to explain fights to each person so they will know what needs to be done.

    Honestly, my opinion of a good raid leader is know what you are talking about. You can't tell the healer he's doing something wrong if you have never healed before and so on with the other roles in the raid. Also you have to know the fights before you ever see them. Tankspot, wow-head, and youtube has so much information on boss encounters a raid leader should always know the fights to pass that knowledge onto the people in your raid. I have leveled every class and have raided higher end raid content on them all. And with this new guild, I'm deffinitely going to go pug out the raids so I can experience them for myself before I take my troops into battle.

    Our entire guild except one person is in afghanistan right now so we have not experienced cata raid content, but you better believe that I plan to catch us up with the rest of the world.

    Never ask your soldiers to do something you are not capable of doing yourself.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,389
    Humiliation and Fear are the complete opposite of what my approach to raid leading was. Leading based on these ideals leads to less respect and higher turnover. It creates tension and leads to guilds falling apart when progress slows or halts. Simply put, I don't think it's a good long term strategy at all.

    Humiliation in particular I see as a complete failure on the raid leaders part. It's the response that someone gives when they don't know how to actually teach their raid how to accomplish something. It represents a lack of creativity and total lack of respect for those you're leading. A horrible environment for a raid to be a part of and something I strongly disagree with recommending to anyone new to raid leading.
    Last edited by veneretio; 04-22-2011 at 05:47 PM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    Humiliation and Fear are the complete opposite of what my approach to raid leading was. Leading based on these ideals leads to less respect and higher turnover. It creates tension and leads to guilds falling apart when progress slows or halts. Simply put, I don't think it's a good long term strategy at all.

    Humiliation in particular I see as a complete failure on the raid leaders part. It's the response that someone gives when they don't know how to actually teach their raid how to accomplish something. It represents a lack of creativity and total lack of respect for those you're leading. A horrible environment for a raid to be a part of and something I strongly disagree with recommending to anyone new to raid leading.
    It's too personal for you.

    People respond to mistakes in one of two ways -- guilt or shame. People who respond to guilt will self-evaluate and fix themselves once they realize they've made a mistake. People who respond to shame do not self-evaluate, but will respond to outside pressure because they don't like how it makes them feel to be called out in front of their social group.

    As a raid leader, you can either make sure you have a guild full of people who respond to guilt and will personally respond to their mistakes -- which is wonderful -- or you can balance it and understand that some otherwise good players will only respond if they feel their social standing is at stake.

    I don't mean "guilt" and "shame" in very serious ways, and this isn't a moral issue. Those are just the best two words to describe the two very different camps of players you'll run into. People who self evaluate are infinitely better if they're equally good players, but there are very good guilds out there comprised of very good players, some of whom respond well to being publicly called out.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciderhelm View Post
    It's too personal for you.

    People respond to mistakes in one of two ways -- guilt or shame. People who respond to guilt will self-evaluate and fix themselves once they realize they've made a mistake. People who respond to shame do not self-evaluate, but will respond to outside pressure because they don't like how it makes them feel to be called out in front of their social group.

    As a raid leader, you can either make sure you have a guild full of people who respond to guilt and will personally respond to their mistakes -- which is wonderful -- or you can balance it and understand that some otherwise good players will only respond if they feel their social standing is at stake.

    I don't mean "guilt" and "shame" in very serious ways, and this isn't a moral issue. Those are just the best two words to describe the two very different camps of players you'll run into. People who self evaluate are infinitely better if they're equally good players, but there are very good guilds out there comprised of very good players, some of whom respond well to being publicly called out.
    In addition to this there are different levels as well as what is actual humiliation. In a casual guild being singled out with a simple why did you die, why are you getting back from this wipe so late, why did you take double the fireball damage as anyone else in the raid, can cause humiliation. However if things like that does cause actual humiliation in a hardcore raiding enviroment then it is an enviroment that you do not fit in. I recently had a player join my guild and we took them in despite being quite far ahead of them in progression due to the application and the logs. However after being in the guild two nights he stopped showing up and stopped raiding, and later cited these three questions as having humiliated him in front of his peers and that raiding with this guild was not worth that. Being that humiliation is a feeling, this is a person by person basis if killing bosses ahead of most of the other players is what makes this game fun for someone and the reason they play it the threshold will be much higher as you get further up that ladder.
    www.blessthemartyrguild.com

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Houston, TX USA
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    4,411
    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledknight View Post
    In addition to this there are different levels as well as what is actual humiliation. In a casual guild being singled out with a simple why did you die, why are you getting back from this wipe so late, why did you take double the fireball damage as anyone else in the raid, can cause humiliation. However if things like that does cause actual humiliation in a hardcore raiding enviroment then it is an enviroment that you do not fit in. I recently had a player join my guild and we took them in despite being quite far ahead of them in progression due to the application and the logs. However after being in the guild two nights he stopped showing up and stopped raiding, and later cited these three questions as having humiliated him in front of his peers and that raiding with this guild was not worth that. Being that humiliation is a feeling, this is a person by person basis if killing bosses ahead of most of the other players is what makes this game fun for someone and the reason they play it the threshold will be much higher as you get further up that ladder.
    Yeah, some will feel guilty, some will respond to shame, some will feel humiliated by even the mildest criticism, and some will deny they ever made a mistake at all. Some of those last even take it so far as to put the blame for mistakes on the other players, failing to recognize any of their own shortcomings.

    The trick is to know your raiders and how they respond to things and interact with them appropriately.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2
    I am the raid leader of a social guild that raids.

    I am my guilds main tank, and make a point of knowing all the classes and what they can do, i therefore have knowledge of what each one is capable of and can tailor my tactics for each boss depending on this.

    Due to the nature of my guild, my raid leading is laid back. I explain how we are going to proceed with each fight before it starts, and what everyones role is. During the fight, even when i am tanking, i call out main points during the fight.. i.e. getting adds down quicker, changes in phases, extra healing on xyz.

    With regards to other peoples opinions about what makes the best raid leader, i think it depends on the guild. If you goal is achieved, and everyone is happy, then any style is good.

    The main thing is that, even though you raid lead, you are still a character in wow, whether you are in a high end guild or social guild. You have been at the point of learning, and progressing your own character, and in my opinion, should make use of your experience to benefit others.

    That is what a leader is all about... tailoring your tactics to your group, "learning" and overcoming weaknesses in tactics or group and coaching of your raid members to achieve your success.

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