The Weekly Marmot -- Guild Restructuring in Cataclysm

[Lore]

[Pers3us]

Oooh what's this? Lore posting the weekly marmot today instead of Ciderhelm? UNHEARD OF! (for me anyway... as far as I've noticed. I may have a lazy eye so if I'm wrong and this happens a lot then I'm going to go ahead and blame it on that.)

So, where to begin in the response to this video this evening...

Great points brought up throughout the video. I very much am always looking forward to the beginnings of expansions. While you're doing your very first recruitment for raids, you actually have the chance to bring that new player in the spotlight while running heroic 5 mans, as their performance is more noticeable there. This is especially true when everyone is still actually gearing up in the heroic dungeons, and Cata will put some challenges in there for you. Always a great place to get an idea of how this person acts, performs, and to see if the person is just generally awesome. Being awesome is definitely what I love to bring to raids. I love being able to talk with people in vent during raids that can have a good time just as much as the next guy, and perform well while doing so.

On to the 10 man loot distribution! I agree with the video pretty much. The loot is much more lax and generally just easier to distribute. You'll basically have an idea of who gets what drop before it even drops since you generally have the same people in the group as you did last time, except maybe 1 or 2 people on those weird days.

My guild is a 25 man raiding guild, and we do 10 mans on off days whenever we feel the need to. The feel of 10 mans is just great. I get to be pretty crazy on vent with no consequences of talking over possibly 24 other people. After a little while, you basically get to know what certain people in your 10 man can catch without it being called out over vent, and what they struggle with. This creates points where everyone can just have a good time, and be serious for the parts that people struggle with. This isn't to say that I'm going to stop 25 man raiding. If we have 25 people, I'll still do the 25 man raid, as it's still nice to just have a bigger group of people to down stuff if you can, plus you can then split that apart and what not if you're short the next raid day.

By the way, if people reading this post haven't gotten this yet, I love to talk on vent... a ton. I'd rather not sit there for 4 hours and just be serious the entire time, because that's boring to me. It ruins the whole social experience, as I would rather be hanging out and telling stories about awesome events that happened in the day or week. I am more able to do this in 10 mans, because it's just a more relaxed environment in general. Talking and getting to know your raid is fun to me, and I don't think I'd be playing this game without that aspect.


So, Mr. Lore, are you going to allow me to help you sort through all of those PMs? I promise to not insult anyone in replies!

*cough*

Ok... I just won't insult donors...

I also know that this will never happen.


Great video as usual! Keep on keepin' on! Looking forward to the special for sure!

[Fetzie]

I agree with the "constant group > shifting group". I MT'd ulduar and ToC with this other tank, and I knew exactly what the other tank was doing, even if I did not have a direct line of sight to them. It made clearing an instance so much easier.

[Crowpala]

One thing that people need to think about going from a big 25 man raiding guild to a 10 man raiding guild with 10-14 members, is that there will be less people on all the time you can interact and have fun with on a daily basis then in a big guild. So people can get bored really fast in a small guild if they are used to a very social big raiding guild.

This happend to me now. I set up a 10 man raiding guild with some friends of mine in game who I have raided with in the past and I know very well. We all had been in other big 25 man hard core proessions raiding guilds, but wanted to have some fun in Cata with the new 10 man raiding changes coming.
Now, not all of the members could be online every day all the time since some had work and other stuff in real life, but we had found raid days that everybody could be online for.
The other days, the ones who had a lot of free time to play the game, was just hanging around in the guild with few other guild members online at the same time. They got bored really fast since the only times there where "a lot" of people on, was when we had our raid days.
So in the end, the guild fell apart and they moved to a big 25 man raiding guild.

So this is something that people need to take into account when they form a small 10 man guild with 10-14 people, things can get boring for those who have a tonn of time to play WoW.

For the loot question. Set it on master looter and have people roll for items for main spec first and the offspec if nobody need it for main spec. If the raid leaders take charge of the looting and have a desent idea of what kind of stats that the different classes and spec's need, and also "overrule" rolls from time to time cause the lock have better use for the hit rating cloth piece then the holy priest, things have a tendency to work out.
I wouldn't have used time on loot systems like dkp in a 10 man raiding guild, just set it on master looter and roll for it on main spec and the offspec.

Just my 2 cents about this weeks topics :-)

[clvsutil]

I would suggest you Crowpala to form more than one 10 man guild. I'm playing in a guild that has around 40/50 members and we have three 10man running ICC. So, during tuesdays and wednesdays, when groups A and B raid, we have around 16/25 people online. We do 25man on friday but is optional.

[Tuurd]

I for one am not a fan of blizzards continually shrinking raid sizes. Ive been playing since vanilla, and one of the things that kept me playing wow was 40 man raids. Yes, it was a pain to get a competent 40-man group, let alone a guild large enough to have 40 competent people in its ranks. Yes, it took forever to get from org to BRM or AQ or Naxx. Yes, coordination was a pain. But all of that is what made the game awesome, when it all came together successfully.

I view this as more of the same dumbing down of the game. Blizz has a mentality of 'lets make it hard, but at the same time easier for EVERYONE to get the same rewards.' I.E. the hardcore raiders will have no problems getting all of this end-game content down and scoring the loot, but at the same time we have to find a way to allow the casual scrub who plays 4 hours a week, to get the same gear too, without the 4 or 5 day a week raid schedule.

Im sure Ill still play through cata, at least until D3 comes out. Im not pleased with all of the EZmode that blizz has built into the game because it detracts from the efforts of people who really put the grind on, which back in vanilla was easy to see- who were the lazy scrubs and who REALLY worked their ass off to get [X] item. You couldnt get tier gear with freakin badges, you actually had to KILL THE BOSS.

True enough, if I ever decide to level my lowbies, its going to be substantially easier to get them up and geared... but why? I just cant wrap my brain around the idea of making everything easy for everyone to get the same gear. Where did the challenge go, where is the initiative to be the first? Or the proof that you / your guild are the best? Achievements? Don't cut it for me in that respect.

Ahh well. It is what it is.

[clvsutil]

More 2 cents about this topic, Lore mentioned about loot distribuiton focused on progression on the earliest episodies of Weekly Marmot. Give loot to people that needs loot to make them better, instead of rolling MS > OS. In 10man groups that are usually always the same it may work out very well.

[Spiritus]

Fact is, I can see 10mans becoming the standard "raid size" for next gen MMOs. Its easier for the developer to balance with [only] 10s and allows you to have more physical space to work with in an encounter environment. It is less of a headache to organize and provides a [generally] less stressful atmosphere. It also [generally] requires less upkeep from a GL perspective and can easily be formed from a group of friends.

Now, the argument on whether this is good or bad is very much up for debate, and generally revolves around how and when you began your MMO experiences.

[kymmico]

I.E. the hardcore raiders will have no problems getting all of this end-game content down and scoring the loot, but at the same time we have to find a way to allow the casual scrub who plays 4 hours a week, to get the same gear too, without the 4 or 5 day a week raid schedule.

Where did the challenge go, where is the initiative to be the first? Or the proof that you / your guild are the best? Achievements? Don't cut it for me in that respect.

First off, I take offense at the "scrub" comment - - some of us have to work, have school commitments (I'm talkin about college), and/or families that demand our attention too. Just because we don't have the hours in the day to meet those ~ life ~ demands AND raid every night of the week (or even 4-5 nights a week), doesn't mean that we are undeserving of being able to see the same content or get the same loot you so-called "hard-core" raiders do.

Secondly, I don't see what the big darned deal is about having to be "the first" or "the best." It's a GAME. However, I do understand that some people want to be able to do/say that. So my question to you is - why can't you say that are the best or the first anymore? They haven't cut "Realm First" achzments....there's STILL a top guild on any given server. So, I don't see how you think that there's no incentive...the whole "woot! I did it FIRST!" factor is still in the equation.

Essentially what I'm saying is it hasn't been "cut" for you - - you just decided it wasn't worth your time anymore.

[fengosa]

I for one am not a fan of blizzards continually shrinking raid sizes. Ive been playing since vanilla, and one of the things that kept me playing wow was 40 man raids. Yes, it was a pain to get a competent 40-man group, let alone a guild large enough to have 40 competent people in its ranks. Yes, it took forever to get from org to BRM or AQ or Naxx. Yes, coordination was a pain. But all of that is what made the game awesome, when it all came together successfully.

I view this as more of the same dumbing down of the game. Blizz has a mentality of 'lets make it hard, but at the same time easier for EVERYONE to get the same rewards.' I.E. the hardcore raiders will have no problems getting all of this end-game content down and scoring the loot, but at the same time we have to find a way to allow the casual scrub who plays 4 hours a week, to get the same gear too, without the 4 or 5 day a week raid schedule.

Im sure Ill still play through cata, at least until D3 comes out. Im not pleased with all of the EZmode that blizz has built into the game because it detracts from the efforts of people who really put the grind on, which back in vanilla was easy to see- who were the lazy scrubs and who REALLY worked their ass off to get [X] item. You couldnt get tier gear with freakin badges, you actually had to KILL THE BOSS.

True enough, if I ever decide to level my lowbies, its going to be substantially easier to get them up and geared... but why? I just cant wrap my brain around the idea of making everything easy for everyone to get the same gear. Where did the challenge go, where is the initiative to be the first? Or the proof that you / your guild are the best? Achievements? Don't cut it for me in that respect.

Ahh well. It is what it is.

The game design where grinding was essential to downing bosses is long gone. Sure casual 'scrubs' are able to see end game content playing 4-5 hours a week, but are they going to down H LK25 doing that? Are they going to get shadowmourne without grinding it out? Are they going to get heroic sanctified t10? Most likely no on all 3 accounts.

The reason why blizzard has made it easier to get gear is because the vast majority of their player base wants to have a life outside of wow while still have a rewarding game experience at the same time. Players who want a greater challenge can still do hard modes and get better gear. I think the thing you can't wrap your mind around is that blizz can't design the game solely for ppl who want realm first kills or who want to be the 'best' guild out there. It alienates far too many of their subscribers and doesn't cut it for players who are more concerned with having fun more than stroking their egos.

[feralminded]

First off, I take offense at the "scrub" comment - - some of us have to work, have school commitments (I'm talkin about college), and/or families that demand our attention too. Just because we don't have the hours in the day to meet those ~ life ~ demands AND raid every night of the week (or even 4-5 nights a week), doesn't mean that we are undeserving of being able to see the same content or get the same loot you so-called "hard-core" raiders do.

Secondly, I don't see what the big darned deal is about having to be "the first" or "the best." It's a GAME. However, I do understand that some people want to be able to do/say that. So my question to you is - why can't you say that are the best or the first anymore? They haven't cut "Realm First" achzments....there's STILL a top guild on any given server. So, I don't see how you think that there's no incentive...the whole "woot! I did it FIRST!" factor is still in the equation.

Essentially what I'm saying is it hasn't been "cut" for you - - you just decided it wasn't worth your time anymore.

While I concur with the general sentiment of your post and also grant you that the original post was laced with elitism, careful not to swing too far to the opposite with your direction. There's plenty of reasons why people want to "win" what you call "Just a game". Most games from the most friendly junior sport to the most competitive professional spot that I know of in fact have clearcut winners and losers. You cannot begrudge anyone their competitive desire to have and the participate in a clear pecking order. No one would watch or play sports if there were not winners and losers. In fact MMO's are somewhat unique in that outside of PvP the ONLY way to directly compete with others is through meters and/or realm rankings.

I understand everyone has a level of play they are comfortable with and just because you as a person who maybe plays 10-15 hours a week cannot compete directly with people who play 30-40 hours a week doesn't mean nobody should be encouraged to compete. Competition is a healthy and powerful means to produce better performance at all levels from the super casual to the super elite.

And yeah, I think there's still plenty out there for the competitive people and an argument can be made either way for them getting perhaps more or less distinction (right now all they really have that's visible to anyone are higher iLvl gear), but contentwise I think blizzard is doing a good job of providing for virtually all skill levels outside of perhaps the absolute most elite (people who down HLK a couple weeks after he becomes available). Compared to the volume of people playing HLK has been killed by only a tiny fraction. In fact Heroic Putricide and Sindragosa are also very rare accomplishments. Those are still things the elite can carry around and brag about should they so desire.

[clvsutil]

I for one am not a fan of blizzards continually shrinking raid sizes. Ive been playing since vanilla, and one of the things that kept me playing wow was 40 man raids. Yes, it was a pain to get a competent 40-man group, let alone a guild large enough to have 40 competent people in its ranks. Yes, it took forever to get from org to BRM or AQ or Naxx. Yes, coordination was a pain. But all of that is what made the game awesome, when it all came together successfully.

I view this as more of the same dumbing down of the game. Blizz has a mentality of 'lets make it hard, but at the same time easier for EVERYONE to get the same rewards.' I.E. the hardcore raiders will have no problems getting all of this end-game content down and scoring the loot, but at the same time we have to find a way to allow the casual scrub who plays 4 hours a week, to get the same gear too, without the 4 or 5 day a week raid schedule.

Im sure Ill still play through cata, at least until D3 comes out. Im not pleased with all of the EZmode that blizz has built into the game because it detracts from the efforts of people who really put the grind on, which back in vanilla was easy to see- who were the lazy scrubs and who REALLY worked their ass off to get [X] item. You couldnt get tier gear with freakin badges, you actually had to KILL THE BOSS.

True enough, if I ever decide to level my lowbies, its going to be substantially easier to get them up and geared... but why? I just cant wrap my brain around the idea of making everything easy for everyone to get the same gear. Where did the challenge go, where is the initiative to be the first? Or the proof that you / your guild are the best? Achievements? Don't cut it for me in that respect.

Ahh well. It is what it is.

Yes, we have lazy people there but why do you think everybody is lazy? I'm talking based on my personal experience here. I'm not a hardcore player, I dont raid 4/5 days a week but I am raiding. Of course I would like to raid more but its impossible because of work, family and study. What should I do? Ruin my life? Sincerely, it was an offense in my point of view. But I understand what you said. Trying to answer your questions: the difference between a casual (some lazy, others RL busy) player and a hardcore one is, for example, the undying/immortal title from Naxx, the red proto-drakes and champion title from Ulduar. About gear, the lower tier bought with frosts were made for people like me, able to do the dailies and raid once/twice a week. Do you know the upper tier bought using a trophy? They are for hardcore, not for me. Shadowmourne? I can pick up the quest dude but its too hard and consume time to complete all the chain. And it doesn't matter if everybody can raid, be the first one to kill a boss is not for everybody. I am in a guild now and we are finally working on LK. Normal mode, not heroic! Only now you may ask and I answer you "yes, only now" because older guild and his members weren't good enough to form raid groups, discuss fights, use ventrillo properly to kill a boss! As Lore said in one of the marmot videos "bad players are still bad players". Four pieces of a T10 gear with all it bonuses mean nothing when a player doesn't know a fight or put the wrong gems/enchants on it.

My other 2 cents,
See you in Dal

[DeathOrCake]

I was in a guild for the past 5 years, had seen 40 man runs and the cat-herding involved in AQ40, BWL and MC and the changes from 40 to 25 to 10. That guild, as far as I know is still in a semi-static progression. However, since reforming with a few expatriates, we ran our first 10 man ICC in past two weeks and are up to Blood Princes ( one-shotted him first go around reg mode). It is easier to have 10 really dedicated raiders than it is to herd 25 okay ones. Also, a lot of our membership are veteran players so guild achievements should rack up fairly quickly.
I'm looking forward to it.

[Bovinity]

Coming from older MMO's, it's cute to see people talk about how hardcore they are because they raided with 40 people in Vanilla.

40 was considered very small at the time WoW was released.

I.E. the hardcore raiders will have no problems getting all of this end-game content down and scoring the loot, but at the same time we have to find a way to allow the casual scrub who plays 4 hours a week, to get the same gear too, without the 4 or 5 day a week raid schedule.

Where did the challenge go, where is the initiative to be the first? Or the proof that you / your guild are the best? Achievements? Don't cut it for me in that respect.

People keep complaining about this all through Wrath, but at the same time there is a HUGE amount of gear elitism in guilds this expansion because the content is supposedly so hugely demanding. So which is it? Is everything "zomg faceroll casual easy" or is it "So hard you better have 6.5k GS"?

[feralminded]

I think the gear elitism came because there was a lack of content progression with which to differentiate guilds, and thanks to the easily obtained moderate epics. By early spring every guild had made decent progress into ICC and since then most have seen at least every fight except maybe LK (Sindy definitely still haunts plenty of casual guilds). Before the stagnation gear elitism was significantly less prevalent imho.

[sonatasun]

This is the first Marmot video I've watched. It left me feeling uneasy. The reason is the speaker emphasizes and repeats that you must be very careful about recruiting for your guild. The suppositional message I hear in this statment is that World of Warcraft is intended for a few good men. The rest need not apply.

The heart of this game is teamwork to overcome well designed challenges. I find Blizzard has designed this game rather well for a broad range of people to this end. I propose the better message to guild recruitors is to help your prospective guildmates find their best role within a team in the face of the challenge ahead. And to those looking to join a guild, we are the ones who need to be careful about the leaders we chose to follow.

[Nuttyprot]

On the topic of loot distribution. My 10 man guild currently uses the below system hope gives people ideas.

Due to us being a ten man guild we have no need for dkp or epgp, and use the below system.

GuildMaster/Officers/Advisors/Veterans and Raiders: Will roll main spec. Highest roll wins.

If none of the above wants the item the trialists/social member may roll main spec.

If no one wants the item for main spec. Then we start the process again but with off spec rolls.

If an item drops that everyone can use e.g mount then a raid roll is done (excluding trialists). If the raid roll lands on a trialist then raid roll is done again.

If a person wins an item THEY MUST PASS ON THE NEXT 2 BOSSES UNLESS NO ONE WANTS THE ITEM THAT DROPS ON THEM 2 BOSSES then they are free to roll.

A person is allowed a max of 2 items per a raid limit unless a person don't need an item then they are free to roll for it.

[Spiritus]

I find the easiest way to have an easy loot system is to have good recruiting. IMO, loot should be the last concern of a raider.

Teamwork first.
Personal Performance second.
Camaraderie third.
Some other stuff.
Then loot.

When loot ceases to be an issue, and people agree upon a simple system of "best upgrade" and are mature adults about it, the game becomes more fun.

Now, a more laid back guild may have camaraderie as number one on that list, which is well and good, but if loot is number two, you'll have problems. The truth is, the only way to get more and better loot is to work on the first three things I mentioned. Focusing on loot as a number one priority is like competing in the Olympics for the gold medal; you missed the point.

[Disclaimer: Not directed at anyone in this thread, just a general opinion.]

[Helbereth]

Sure, I miss 2 weeks of the Marmot and Lore actually answers my question.

Anyway.

The loot is almost a secondary concern when it comes to a 10-man. It can really be handled with a loot master and main spec/off-spec rolls if it's an established group. You only really need a system in place if you're recruiting and you want to prevent the win-loot-and-ditch tomfoolery that can happen.

As far as the 'elitism' about recruiting, I think in a 10-man raid it will be easier to take a new player and help them get better rather than have them get lost and end up leaving or being left out because of performance issues. Lore said, basically, that teaching a smaller number of people a fight is easier than teaching 12 or 15 (or 25). It's similar to having smaller class sizes in school - you end up getting more personal attention when you have questions, and there are fewer damning eyes on you when you ask a stupid one. Basically what I'm saying is that with a 10-man group it should be easier to teach someone the fights.

Also, here's a phonetic spelling (which I should have included in the PM, apparently).

Hell-beh-reth

[Selty]

This is the first Marmot video I've watched. It left me feeling uneasy. The reason is the speaker emphasizes and repeats that you must be very careful about recruiting for your guild. The suppositional message I hear in this statment is that World of Warcraft is intended for a few good men. The rest need not apply.

The heart of this game is teamwork to overcome well designed challenges. I find Blizzard has designed this game rather well for a broad range of people to this end. I propose the better message to guild recruitors is to help your prospective guildmates find their best role within a team in the face of the challenge ahead. And to those looking to join a guild, we are the ones who need to be careful about the leaders we chose to follow.

Actually I don't think that is true about what Lore meant. He is probably thinking it is implied that the guy want's a competitive group that wants to be ranked well on the server. Some people are good, some are okay, and some just suck. I think you are just being to sensitive.