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Thread: its the tanks fault

  1. #1
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    its the tanks fault

    was wondering if theres anything i can do to keep mobs on me. lately been going in pug dungeons and get alot of negative feedback and even some dropping ppl dropping out because the either die or we wipe. so heres the problem. most of the time they dont let me attack first or they grab other mobs at the same time. there are few that get away from me and attack other members of the group. i hit everything i have to get mob aggro but just doesnt seem good enough. is there anything i can do.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...marsh&cn=Grmps

  2. #2
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    Umm I am at school and can't pull up your armory so what class are you? (Make sure you are specific in your questions)
    Earthgoddess: 80 Resto Druid: Windrunner
    www.eggsncrits.guildlaunch.com

  3. #3
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    Protect the healer and let the idiot dps die - they pull it, they tank it.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Protect the healer and let the idiot dps die - they pull it, they tank it.
    ^ This... Can't say anything more then that. ^
    Møønbøøt - 80 Tauren Druid // Nøri - 80 Blood Elf Death-Knight // Realm - Talnivarr (EU)
    Faith is the first step, even if you can't see the whole staircase... ~ Annie

  5. #5
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    When dps make pulls, I sit down and watch. Sometimes they notice, sometimes not so much.

  6. #6
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    Your gemming and spec are bad. You are well over the defense minimum, so the + defense gems are useless for you, and 40 AP gems are bad. If you want to gem for threat, focus on expertise > hit > strength.

    As far as the spec goes, get the 15/3/53. Improved disarm, cruelty, focused rage are all unnecessary.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...12521030113321

    Your glyphs are fine for 5 mans.

  7. #7
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    Tank and healers set the pace. Unless they're willing to tank it, it's their own fault. Mark targets, tell them to wait a sec. If they don't, or go running off (I hate the healers that do this... go jogging off to pull the next pack - for whatever reason, healers seem to be the worst offenders, maybe because they're board) let 'em die.

    One thing that might help is charge, so you have a little time (hopefully) before they go hog wild. Remember vig. But if you have 25m geared players that know what they're doing, they choose if they pull off you or not.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Protect the healer and let the idiot dps die - they pull it, they tank it.
    /agree, First time a dps pulls something i give them a warning, the second time i watch them die. If the healer pulls he dies as well. but being a dk doing this is more survivable.
    US|Thrall|Horde Yea, I Love Plate
    Ike(Fury Warrior) Oit(Dk Tank) Oiz(Holy Pally)

  9. #9
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    k, thanks. i know my gems are off. have researched so many places that really push stam but was always taught to get exp hit and strength like you said.

  10. #10
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    i think the biggest problem that i have most is making skull and x and then grp pulling a different one off me thats not marked. seems like its always one person in the grp. just get tired of ppl dropping. but i guess if they cant hit the ones that are marked and i have a ton of aggro on and want to go renegade then ill just let them suffer the consequences. thanks all

  11. #11
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    my policy is the same as the ones above, if they pull it on purpose, i taunt it off and warn them. they pull it a 2nd time - that indicates they want to tank, so i let them and watch as healer either scrambles to save them or lets them die.
    i've had plenty of runs where i've just sat down with the healer watching the dps running around like headless chickens when they realize that theres no heals on them and no safety net for them...kinda fun to watch actually....

    if the healer does it....well, i'm a decently geared prot pally - i'll usually live

    other than that, if you have dps that massively outgear you, they might pull off you if they're not careful with their threat....that's their problem if they want to look at recount rather than omen

    that being said, i wouldnt blame everything on gear - you do have to do the research regarding your spec, rotations (if there's one and depending on the situation) as well as enchants/gems - that way you know that your doing your best to maintain the best tps you can do

  12. #12
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    I am also firmly in the you pull it you tank it camp .. I don't mind singles but when they pull mobs they generally hit only one and the others immediately zoom in on the healer and he dies which is what I object too.

    Ask them not to do it and should they persist stop tanking and ask them to kick you so you don't get the dungeon desserter debuff or even teleport out and wait for them to kick you. Remember you will insta queue again anyhow they can sit around and enjoy the wait for a new tank.

    You definitely need to fix up talents and remember challenging shout may save the day in the sort of situation you are describing but it does come on a 3min CD.

    This problem sort of goes away as your gear improves because you are usually ready to move onto next mob long before the dps has finished with them.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  13. #13
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    thanks again all for your help. thats why i keep looking to tankspot. you guys are great

  14. #14
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    its the tanks fault

    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Protect the healer and let the idiot dps die - they pull it, they tank it.
    I /agree, second this, third, fourth, fifth this even.


    Two instances, one a shammie healer who started pulling in H PoS because "he didn't want to be there all day". Not like we were going so slow. He was speed pulling. I said you pull it, you tank it. He made the remark "it wouldn't be the first time". We get to Ick and we wipe because moronboy himself didn't get out of poison nova. Promptly left group, I don't like to leave and make people suffer, normally, but I felt this needed to be done to put more egg on his face.

    2nd was just in HToc. This is a funny, boomkin pulls third group before I am ready. I pick up one and let the other two beat up on him/her for a bit, him/her got to about 40% health, then I went over and easily ripped both off of him/her.

    I'm liking this mantra more and more and these guys are going to get a stone cold awakening in cata heroics...and that's the bottom line..

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  15. #15
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    If H HoR is any type of preview, Cata is going to be sooooo miserable in the begining as everyone who learned the game on the "gather them up, AoE them down" paradigm will have to learn the art of cc; God, it's going to be a wipe fest.

  16. #16
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    it IS the tank's fault

    I have to say I totally disagree with all of these replies. As a caveat, you need 1-2 seconds to gather up mobs before aoe gets unleashed, but baring that, I don't agree with loose mobs being anyone elses' fault but the tanks'. First, we're talking about 5 man instances, why are we marking targets in the first place? The Wrath model for 5 mans is aoe, aoe, and more aoe. There are very few fights that require focused fire. Further, this is a GREAT time to practice your aoe threat. You mentioned you have 2 targets with high threat:

    "I guess if they cant hit the ones that are marked and i have a ton of aggro on and want to go renegade then ill just let them suffer the consequences."

    You don't need a "ton" of aggro on anything. You need enough aggro on lots of mobs, not a ton of aggro on 1 or 2. Focus on staying ahead of aggro on all mobs, not lapping the field on one while allowing 3 or 4 to run wild.

    Next, I have to say that I hate the "if dps pulls i sit down and watch...." or "I'll let them suffer the consequences" argument. All this does is punish your healer, not the dps. The healer will be able to keep the dps up, they just have to burn a bunch of mana to do it and no one learns a lesson except that they can get hit in the face and survive just fine.

    Finally, I want to stress one of my original points, and that is that 5 mans are a great place to practice building threat on multiple mobs. Especially when the dps outgears you. It is challenging. It makes it fun, and it makes you a better tank.

  17. #17
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    Lots of different replies but I'll weigh in with mine.

    Obviously, you shouldnt have to try to fix every crazy dps's screw up. However, most 5 mans can be categorized as this; Idle hands are the devil's workshop. Tell the healer that your gear is on the lower side but that is no reason to go slow. If you keep the pace up, you can stay "ahead" of the dps most of the time. Let the healer know you want to push pace a little bit. Dont be afraid to make mistakes. Sometimes, when you have a strong threat lead on something, check the healers mana bar. If its ok, let the dps finish off that add and go to the next pack. While they are killing the prev mob, youre building threat on a new one.

    I suspect that the reason the dps is chippy is because you are going slower. If you want practice tanking more slowly, I recommend running non heroics. First your gear will be superior there and your party mates will likely be below level 80. Once you are comfortable pushing pace, take on the easier heroics. If you find a strong healer, try to talk him (or her) into staying with you for some chain 5 mans.

    Most of these issues can be fulled back to expectations. If progression for you is a 5 man heroic but you are using the random que, that is a mistake. Most of the people there are farming and want a badge, some gold and to get the hell out of there. Its a pug. If its progression for you, it would be a mistake to pug it. Get yourself a team of people and go. The LFG is a great tool.... but its not designed to be a place where you actually go to get gear upgrades. And it never will be. The problem you have is expectations of the party.

    Pushing the pace will make a good portion of these issues go away. You can let people die if you want, but if I had to vote to keep a tank that is marking adds in a 5 man and has 20k health or the 7k dps ele shaman that keeps dying because he is impatient, Im likely staying with the Shaman. I think there is a place for people to learn to tank..... but I personally, dont want to be taking extra time to get someone caught up on tanking 5 mans. I suspect that most of the LFG is the same.
    Last edited by Unger; 09-23-2010 at 09:20 AM.
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crutchs View Post
    I have to say I totally disagree with all of these replies. As a caveat, you need 1-2 seconds to gather up mobs before aoe gets unleashed, but baring that, I don't agree with loose mobs being anyone elses' fault but the tanks'. First, we're talking about 5 man instances, why are we marking targets in the first place? The Wrath model for 5 mans is aoe, aoe, and more aoe. There are very few fights that require focused fire. Further, this is a GREAT time to practice your aoe threat. You mentioned you have 2 targets with high threat:

    "I guess if they cant hit the ones that are marked and i have a ton of aggro on and want to go renegade then ill just let them suffer the consequences."

    You don't need a "ton" of aggro on anything. You need enough aggro on lots of mobs, not a ton of aggro on 1 or 2. Focus on staying ahead of aggro on all mobs, not lapping the field on one while allowing 3 or 4 to run wild.

    Next, I have to say that I hate the "if dps pulls i sit down and watch...." or "I'll let them suffer the consequences" argument. All this does is punish your healer, not the dps. The healer will be able to keep the dps up, they just have to burn a bunch of mana to do it and no one learns a lesson except that they can get hit in the face and survive just fine.

    Finally, I want to stress one of my original points, and that is that 5 mans are a great place to practice building threat on multiple mobs. Especially when the dps outgears you. It is challenging. It makes it fun, and it makes you a better tank.

    1-2 seconds?

    thats 1.3 GCDs.

    so for a warrior that a TC and Cleave
    for a bear thats a swipe and a Maul(?)
    for a pally thats a Hammer
    fr a DK that one BB or HB or IT and maybe a rune strike.

    and even less if we say have to silence a caster or two to drag them into the pack.


    the "wrath model" is only that way becuase the majority rediculously out gear the instance, i remember back when wrath hit running HCs with the entire group in Blues with maybe a few crafted epics and an smattering of greens,when 22k was not a disrespectable amount of health for a tank, the model then was certainly not AoE like mad.

    now Geared tanks can pull half a dungeon Naked and survive, but the thing is that kinda depends on the tank being geared, and you kinda have to run HCs to get gear. its a bit of a harsh point of view to assume an appropiately geared tank should be treated exactly the same as one in 264/277s,. hell i wouldn't expect a healer in ilvl200s to keep me alive through LK, nor would i expect DPS to be able to beat the enrage on festergut 25HC if they where on 5 man HC gear. It just doesn't make sense to expect a tank in gear a few tiers below yours to hold aggro against you when you're going balls to the wall. sure it can be done, but that requires teamwork, and that requires DPS to work with the tank, and vice versa.

  19. #19
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    Okay, the next time I sit down to watch, don't change anything. Don't say anything. Don't correct anyone, and that way, we can repeat the mistake.

  20. #20
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    Yeah dont say anything, don't correct anyone, just fix their mistake by picking up all the crap they pulled and demonstrating why you are the man and they suck.

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