Great Guild but just a lot of problems, Any tips?

[Lepka]

Simply... the guild is somewhat stuck. As a guild we're working on getting the 60 80s we have geared to run ICC consistently and without a problem. While we have those, me included, who are geared and ready to down LK.

It feel that most of the guild is trying to catch up... and it just seems to drag down, those that are ready do actually progress past the PP and even Dreamwalker fights.

I guess my question and dilema is... how do you balance gearing some of the newer and less experienced 80s with ICC progression. We have several who are more than geared to do 25's and there are plenty of us that JUST need 25 man gear, and really 10's have nothing to offer.

A lot of times, for the sake of niceness, we're running our ICC 10's with 4.5k geared players, at times pulling 2.3k dps... Where we have other people in the raid doing 8k dps. And we're wiping on the fights because of it.

Do we just ask the lower geared players to pug ToC's and Ulduaar, and save up their frosts or what?

I'm sitting on a 5.8k GS.. and I have minimal ICC experience to show for it. Don't get me wrong I love the guild, helped build the guild... but Im getting burnt out on Saurfang and Dreamwalker wipes.

[Wilhem]

I took a 4.7K gearscore guildie with me this morning (feral druid who had never been in ICC before at all) and he pulled over 5K on every boss fight, over 7K on Deathwhisper when I had him just stay on the boss the whole time. If your guild members are pulling 2.3K DPS (with the 20% buff) then either they are not good at playing their class, really confused during the fight, or really improperly geared.

Also, with the 20% buff, you should be able to down 8/12 in ICC10 man as long as people are doing what they're supposed to (avoid flames, kill proper adds, avoid maleable goo, etc...) and have proper rotations/gearing even with lower gear. Maybe not Putricide, but you should at least be able to get Festergut, Rotface, Blood Princes and Dreamwalker; so 9/12.

Honestly, just from reading your post it seems to me like it's the players more than their lack of gear. Tell them all to read up on the fights, watch videos, but most importantly, learn the intricacies of their classes and tighten up their rotations. 2.3K DPS was Naxx DPS, without a buff, and those gearscores are somewhere around 3-3.5K, not 4.5K.

[Lepka]

Should we begin forming a group from those of us that are consistent and experienced raiders, to work more on progression, and maybe appoint someone else to manage a group that is focused on gearing, (in ToC if needed) even just rep farming, and have them build more on their raiding experience. Before they step up and take part in more of the progression aspect.

[Mr.Winkle]

Many larger guilds form a progression raid group and a casual raid group. If you can get a 25man progression group together then great, but even a 10man progression group would give your better raiders something to cut their teeth on.

[Lepka]

I had actually asked to start running a serious 25 man... but the Assistant Guild Master gave me a flat out no... saying we weren't ready. Which caused a bit of frustration due to the fact that the Assist and the GL haven't been on in about a month and a half due to RL issues, and I'm the only active officer at the time, and the decisions I'm asked to make are very limited due to there stipulations.

As it looks right now... we're going to begin forming a serious 10 man dedicated to progression.. the only problem I see now is breaking the news to the other guildies.

[Ylun]

How about making very clear requirements for how to enter this new progression group? Making it fairly transparent to the guild should be a good way to avoid unnecessary QQ. Then you can always refer the casuals to these requirements so that they know what to aim for. And if the group is full and you get more people ready, you could have a queue system for when a slot opens up.

[Lepka]

I'm considering keeping the Core Progression run relatively quiet... Which I'm somewhat skeptical about doing, since it may cause some animosity. And I would more than likely step down as the Raid Leader for the "experience" group, and begin leading the Progression group instead.

[Thorall]

If you got itch to down the LK that bad and you GL and assistant GL havent been on in a month, Get a GOOD group of 10 that are ready and get it done in the next two weeks. Getting a group of 10 to finish the king allows you access to h10 gear even if the group splits they all have access to using hero modes.

[Fledern]

I just took my 5K geared palatank along with a 4.4K geared DK tank to icc10. We got to putricide (and failed due to bad positioning rather than lack of gear/stuff). More than half the raid was 5K or less gearscore. With the 25% buff, getting stuff done in icc is just a matter of perception. If you believe you can do it, you can. Check the guild Undergeared for progress, they're doing icc in blues

[Fayre]

One way to avoid animosity is to put a set limit on what'll happen with this progression 10. e.g. I'm forming a set 10 to kill the LK, I think this will take us about 3 weeks, at which point the group will disband.

What you don't want to do is pinch all the great players for an extended period. You can always reform a similar-but-different progression 10 for a future (again limited) goal.

[Ylun]

My experience is that keeping these stuff quiet and secret is really hard. If you have QQ:ers and drama queens in your guild (and most guilds have, sadly), they will find out. (For example, in the guild interface it's really obvious if 10 people are in Icecrown Citadel at a time where nothing is scheduled. And from there it's a small step to check your statistics page on the armory, or your achievements.)

That's why I believe in being honest about your intents. You'll likely get tons of interested people wanting to join. And when they are rejected, the reactions will vary greatly depending on their personality but also how you explained the situation and the perceived fairness of your actions.

Also you need to figure out how to handle the backup players. Those that are invited once in a while, when someone did a no-show. But who has not a chance to join the regular group.

[Lepka]

I just took my 5K geared palatank along with a 4.4K geared DK tank to icc10. We got to putricide (and failed due to bad positioning rather than lack of gear/stuff). More than half the raid was 5K or less gearscore. With the 25% buff, getting stuff done in icc is just a matter of perception. If you believe you can do it, you can. Check the guild Undergeared for progress, they're doing icc in blues

The issue isn't so much gear, as it is inexperience. We've taken several people in that are anywhere from 3.8 to 6k GS, and we've done fine. But, as a decision by the GL and Assistant, we run NOTHING but ICC, and invites go out to every level 80 ranked Initiate and up. And out of all the 80s we have you can imagine that we get some people that just don't know how to raid... Even doing simple stuff like "LoS" or staying away from the front of Mobs or Bosses in case of a cleave. So we're bringing in people that have 0 raiding experience and a person like that can really hurt the group... 3-4 is even worse.

And it's not fair to those players in the guild that serious about raiding... hence the more strict Progression group that's being formed.

I also appreciate the tips on honesty, and we actually really didn't plan on keeping the group together after a LK kill.. We'd probably end up rotating a few people in, or going for Heroic modes...

[Loganisis]

I certainly understand the issue. My last guild was a 'take whoever is on' guild and it meant I have nightmares about Ignis. I enjoyed the people, but not the setup.

I don't want to come across as a trouble maker, but if your GL and AGL will not allow the creation of core teams or guild runs in lesser content to whip new raiders into shape, you have a fail guild, no matter how much you enjoy the people in it. From my experience, I wish I would have forced the issue and laid down how I felt. That I was tired of busting my butt learning fights, earning G to spend on gear/gems/enchants only to be held back by random invites who were too lazy to even farm the gold for cold weather flying, let alone do the work to have anything more than Naxx10 drop gear.

The frustration level was extremely high and I nearly quit WoW because of it (as it was, I was away for 6 weeks and didn't miss it at all, if I had found another hobby, I don't think I would have come back). But when I returned the group that would have been the 'core raider' group had split off for a new guild and I linked up and it was a blast. It was tough getting enough people on and recruiting, because we were only a 10-man to start with and fewer than that broke off, but the stress level was right out the window. I knew going into ToC10 and ICC10 that the guys and gals with me were intent on learning, progressing, and improving. It's been a growing pain process, trying to recruit (something none of us were particualrly good at) to get a core 10 man together, but we may just have a 25 run on the books every week before Cata drops and in the end it's been very much worth it, even if I did have to more or less see some friends fade away as some went seperate directions.

[Lepka]

For me that's the big holding factor for me. I was one of the guild founders, and I've been with them from the start, and since we're at over 200 members now, I've met and gotten to know a lot of the guildies. But the fact that I'm paying 15$ a month to SOMETIMES get as far as Saurfang is a big deterrent.

[Ubermicro13]

For me that's the big holding factor for me. I was one of the guild founders, and I've been with them from the start, and since we're at over 200 members now, I've met and gotten to know a lot of the guildies. But the fact that I'm paying 15$ a month to SOMETIMES get as far as Saurfang is a big deterrent.

If you are not happy with the way your money is being spent stop playing. Or you could join a guild that progresses at a rate which you like.

[Amandaterasu]

LOL, are you one of the officers in my guild? Oh, no, you said the GL and AGM haven't been on in about a month, and I'm on every day.

It's the players. Take it from me, and seeing the same bs in my raids every week. It's the players. I'm currently looking for a way to deal with the situation myself.

So good luck, brother-in-arms. /fistbump