Marrogar HC problems

[Tengenstein]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/j...ses&boss=36612

So last night we had a few attempts at marrowgar HC, and had a generally very poor raiding expierience, that left quite a few feeling rather frustrated. we had quite a few people ducking out becuase of lag. However, I really wan to know where we are going wrong with this fight, since it seems most people are staying well out the fires. leaving Bone storms and Impales as the main causes of deaths? is this a DPS issue, or a healing Issue?

I've n oticed our Locks (2x destro, 1xaff) seem are having trouble on spikes, almost everyone else in the raid has 10-24% fo their damage done on Bone spikes, but as a class they struggle to match even the lowest of the other raiders, what should they be doing to maximise their damage ob Bonespikes

I am aware of the tanking issues, the pally tank has latency issues meaing he can be slow out of the fires, and myself having <40ms latency has given rise to me eating a Bone slice solo as i move out the fire before the other tanks even see it.

What should I be focusing on improving?

[Juu]

Okay, I need a few clarifications: how many tanks and how many healers are you using?
Are your dps and heals (except hunters) stacking together? Are your hunters stacking?
On bone storms, I know that people should not be moving out of range of our healers. You should mostly be grouped in the center circle. We always had a problem with our hunters getting out of range.

Honest, I haven't done 25HC, just 10HC, but I've heard people talk about it. I'll try to offer basic help if I can, until others with more experience come along.

[Cassius]

I can understand the Aff lock having a lil trouble with the bonespikes, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem. Providing that the raid was stacked well, even the AoE dmg can break them down. Can't check the logs atm, but were the wipes to do with tank deaths? If not, then the latency isn't too much of a problem.

[Bowen]

Your dps need to step it up looking at that log, top ones barely pulling 7k at 30% and your tanks are mixed in with the dps. for the tank flame moving plan it out ie we start from far right and move 3 times to the left and then rinse repeat, everyone stacks behind marrow for bonespikes. if people run to opposite ends of the room in bonestorm phase and get spiked then replace them in the raid they are causing problems. use raid cooldowns in bonestorms, tanks use a cooldown when he comes out of bonestorm and get him into place ASAP.

[Quinafoi]

Bone Storm is typically the problem for most raids doing this encounter on heroic difficulty because most people never bothered to learn how Marrowgar determines the targeting of his abilities like the charge during Bone Storm.

First of all, targets hit by Bone Slice are set to lowest priority for being a target of Bone Spike. This means that the main tank and off tank will be the last two possible targets selected, everyone else would have to be dead, immune, or already spiked in order for the tanks to be chosen. This is important to understand, your tanks can't get spiked.

During Bone Storm, Marrowgar uses an N furthest target random selection, similar to many other mechanics in the zone like Blood Queen Lana'thel's Blood Bolt, Festergut's Vile Gas, and Deathbringer Saurfang's Blood Nova. Like these abilities, the charge during Bone Storm is a random selection of a subset of targets. Because of the amount of movement involved during this phase, the number of targets is actually very difficult to measure. On 10 man it is likely between 1 and 4 targets where he will charge randomly one of the N furthest targets (for example if N is 2, he will randomly choose to charge one of the two furthest targets). On 25 man N appears to be small as well likely between 2 and 5 based on observations.

Alright, you ready to learn how to make Bone Storm a lot easier to deal with?
1. Tanks can't be spiked (so DPS doesn't need to be by tanks to break them off spikes).
2. He perfers to charge targets that are furthest away from him.

Put 1 and 2 together, what do you get? If you spread out your tanks during Bone Storm so that they are further apart from each other than the raid, he will prefer to bounce back and forth between tanks. A tank with significantly higher effective health can easily survive the boss charging them because they can last longer without heals relative to the rest of the raid. Healers just need to make sure tanks aren't spread so far away that they are out of healing range. Keep misdirects and tricks of the trade on the main tank and so long as they are top in threat after the Bone Storm ends the boss will go back to them. Additionally if this is a problem you can have the tank that is further away when Bone Storm ends taunt the boss. Because the boss moves so slowly getting to the tank, the other tank has plenty of time to get into position for the Bone Slice. When it works perfectly, you generally get something like the first charge goes for a hunter cause they stand back further. After that the tanks had an opportunity to spread out a bit and the boss proceeds to bounce between the tanks. Naturally if he comes for the raid, you still have to move. However the key concept is... you have to move less often cause most of the time he is just bouncing between the tanks. This makes it considerably easier to DPS down the spikes.

[Tengenstein]

@Juu, 3 tanks(warr/pally/DK), 6 heals (1xpally. 1xdisc proest, 2xshammy, 2x druid) DPS are stacking in the red circle apart from hunters who are holding formation about 8 yards apart off to the side


@ Cassius, Wipes where generally not to tank death, usually we're last ones left standing

@Bowen, thank you, though the times we get the Him down to 30% i beleive th only DPS left alive where frantically trying to get what all the spikes down. should we be aoeing them down in the non-bonestorm bits? should we start running through fires on Bonestorm phases to get extra DPS on the spikes?

[Quinafoi]

Ok, here is what you do... you have your main tank tank him up next to the wall of ice. When Bone Storm starts, you have both of the two off tanks run off and stand between the two fires on the right and left of the doorway. This makes a very large triangle with your tanks. You have your raid grouped up in the middle of the circle. The first charge heads for the hunters generally standing back towards the door. After that it should bounce between the tanks for the most part. If the raid is in the middle of the triangle healers should have range on the three tanks. Once Bone Storm ends, the boss meanders back to the main tank and the off tanks get back on top of the main tank. Rinse and repeat.

[Quinafoi]

Starting Position
2.JPG

BOOOOOOONE STOOOOOOOOOOORM!
3.JPG

Tank Pin-Ball Machine
4.JPG


P.S. My MS Paint skills suck.

[Quinafoi]

Same methodolgy works for 10 man as well, since you know the two tanks can't be spiked you move them out of the raid as sort of grounding totems for the boss to charge during Bone Storm. Only difference is you only have two tanks and the raid may have to move once and a while, but the general idea is they should have to move less often.

Slight variation for 10 man... raid makes the third point of the triangle and if they get charged they have to move out of it.
5.JPG

[Juu]

@Quinafoi: You rock! We're so using this strat in normal and hard modes from now. Fantastic strategy.

Tengenstein, that really will help you I'm sure. Other than that, it's just making sure people are switching immediately to spikes, and that even during bonestorms they remain a priority. If you're all grouped up like that strat suggests, it will make it a lot easier.

[Tengenstein]

ah well havent tried the two fires by the door, always just split straight left and right, we'll try that next reset, Thanks Quinafoi.


and what should my locks being doing to spikes, to up their damage?

[Quinafoi]

On 25 man you may still probably split your DPS and healing left and right sides. The sides don't matter so much when people are clustered together in the circle, but if the boss happens to charge the raid instead of a tank, it's helpful if people know where to split apart. The goal however is that as movement decreases, both healing and DPS increases. You still have to dodge the fires of course, but if you have to dodge Bone Storm less often, that's less movement.

[Fledern]

If i'm reading the combatlog right, you're tanking him with 2 tanks. That's quite possible with the 30% and you both have the gear for it.

I dont know how you're handling bone storm but one trick we found to be really easy is to have everybody group up on the boss' ass and when bonestorm hits, the two tanks and one other plate wearer run to the right & left ramps and the third to the entrance gate. The rest of the raid stays where they are & continue dpsing & healing. What this does is Marrowgarr will spend MOST of his time during bonestorm pingponging between those 3 plate wearers while breaking out spiked people and maintaining dps on boss for the rest of the raid will be easier.

[Quinafoi]

That is actually not a very safe idea Feldern as only the tanks can't be chosen for Bone Spike. The third plate wearer would be a sitting duck if they get picked and charged. Instead, just get out a third tank for the encounter. Even though you can do it with less, use three. Because being hit by Bone Slice makes you a low priority target for Bone Spike, you can then guarentee that the three targets being spread out can't be spiked.

[Theotherone]

We use the same strategy as Quinafoi and call it tank pin ball too. With the 30% the hits on the tanks are pretty trivial. On the DK I save a cooldown and used Anti-Magic shell so I don't have to worry about the blue stuff on the floor.

[Quinafoi]

Bone Storm simply was one of those mechanics that was so insanely trivial in normal difficulty that most people simply never bothered figuring out how it actually worked. And when it came down to Heroic difficulty that is what ended up wiping everyone. I actually think it was very well designed by the encounter designers to do that, something you took for granted in normal you are forced to understand in heroic, or at least if you take the time to understand it the encounter becomes significantly easier. In this case even though heroic didn't really introduce anything new ability wise, it forces you to take a step back and have a new respect for the boss abilties.