Hard Core Raiding VS Casual

[kolben]

I'm happy with the "casual" label because I mean we don't spend more than 6 hours a week raiding, two 3 hour sessions.

I push the raid to beat clear times each week, I expect people to be ready to zone in and start pulling within 5 minutes of invites going out. They know to bring their buff food, flasks and be repaired. I give a 10 minute raid break mid-raid and other than that I expect to have zero downtime - which means we hand out assignments and talk strategy etc. while clearing trash. If anything we are always pushing to do more in less time, and we do push that hard.

Believe it or not, I don't run damage meters nor do I bother with logs and I've never looked at gearscore nor do I give a flying frak. I am looking for people doing what they were asked to do, not standing in the thing, using cooldowns/trinkets when i asked them to etc. I rarely ever have to say anything, and I do so privately in a tell if I do or in a general manner on vent if needed. I have been blessed with people who play well in this environment and frankly won't re-invite someone who needed too much attention unless they have mentor in the raid which has worked for some players.

That wall of text was simply to explain my definition of casual, i'm proud of it and we have fun which is the point.

[Goros]

We're a casual guild. We have a one-night a week for 4 hours "progression" ICC10 man that is 1 achieve away from Glory (the sindy 5 stacks achieve). We have 2 other 10 man ICC's that are 11/12 right now, and a 25 man at 10/12 which we started 3 weeks ago. We also have a late night 10 man that just started and a 10 man teaching & gearing raid for newbs. We also have a saturday 25 man to gear alts and we do drag in some pugs for it.

Sunday night we had 32 people on at 9 server.

All of our raids are one night per week, and we've done OK since we started ICC before LK was in the game but after Frost Wing was open, and didn't have a serious raid until a month + after that.

We use Suicide Kings for loot, and are pretty social, but adult only (18+). We're not going to be server first at anything, but we don't need to be...we were around before WoW opened it's doors and we'll be around after WoW2 comes along...I'm happy with our progression as long as we're in the top 10 for our faction..which we are, despite the late start.

You don't have to sacrifice RL for progression as long as you find a place that's organized enough to make it happen.

[Bladesong]

Near as I can tell, Casual and Hard Core are pejoratives when used to describe players, as almost every definition of either contains negative stereotypes. The words seem to be more relevant to guilds and the rules and expectations they may impose.

For example, I consider my old ten man guild to be casual. It was made up of people who were connected through friends IRL, loot was a straight up roll with no rules (some discussion occurred), some of the guys didn't care if they downed the last boss in an instance, raids were twice a week and if someone missed a raid (for any reason) it was no big deal. Some of the players in that group were exceptional - they knew their class inside and out and always performed above their gear level. My current 25 man guild seems more hardcore. We raid three nights a week with the intent to complete content and then get through as much heroic content as possible, people who miss raids lose their spots, people who seriously under perform lose their raid spots and we've used various loot systems to ensure that loot goes where it will do the most good. While we don't have any bad players, we do have a few who should be able to perform better with the gear they have and some who are give to lack of awareness.

The 10 man guild is currently 11/12 normal ICC and most of them are comfortable with that. The main thing they get from raids is hanging out with friends - any success in an instance is all frosting. The 25 man guild is 8/12 heroic ICC - we push for success first, but still value being online with friends. To me, that would be the essence of casual vs. hard core.

[Jammer Six]

Personally, I'd define hard-core guilds as:

1) Those who tend to have heavier raiding schedules (3-4+ days per week).

According to this definition, a PUG can be a hard core raid.

A hard core raiding guild without the guild!

The first "guild" ever to be completely drama-free!

[Errvalunia]

I think the main difference between a hard core *guild* vs a casual *guild* is thus:

-Hardcore raiders will (usually) devote much more TIME to raiding (banging their head on LK 4 nights a week if necessary)
-Casual guilds are much less likely to KICK players unless they are a severe problem.

In my guild, a casual GUILD, some players are more casual than others--but the guild would rarely bar someone from raids unless they are a serious, serious bad. In our guild we kind of know that the rogue sometimes stands in fire too much and one healer does better with simpler assignments. But we wouldn't kick them unless they really seriously sucked, which nobody in our raid does.

[Bashal]

According to this definition, a PUG can be a hard core raid.

A hard core raiding guild without the guild!

The first "guild" ever to be completely drama-free!

Well, sure... if that was the only point that I had put up.

[Quinafoi]

First and foremost, the type of "raider" you are has no relationship to the type of "player" you are. That is a steriotype. Contrary to popular belief, all hardcore raiders are not necessarily better players than casual raiders. Their raiding progression has no direct correlation to how strong they are as an individual. While the vast majority of bad players aren't hardcore raiders holds true simply because hardcore raids aren't going to carry people that underperform. This does not infer that all casual raiders are weaker players.

Because Joe Warrior's raid kills more bosses than John Warrior's raid does, doesn't mean that Joe is a better warrior than John. The comparison of two raids (teams) is different than the comparison of two players (individuals). Take professional sports for example. If a football team wins the Superbowl, does that mean that every player in every position on their team is the best in their position? No. The success of the team while based off the skills of each of the individuals, does not say that they are more successful as individuals.

[Fledern]

We consider ourselves a casual guild. And we have about equal numbers of the following classes of players:

Hardcore players: We have about 15 of these. They are really capable and would fit in quite nicely into a group going for realm firsts, etc. They have the skill, the patience and the time to devote to such endevours. They prefer not to jump ship to a real hardcore guild because they prefer a more friendly atmosphere and dont mind if they dont get those achievements in time. They are not enough to run a full 25man raid and too many for a full 10man hardcore raid.

Really good casual players: Really good players that need to experience something once or twice and will correct & adapt without being told. They know their classes, they know how to read the encounter & to adapt. however, their time commitment to the game is extremely casual, their raiding times very limited or completely haphazard. We like to have them when they're online but we never count on them being online (if they sign up, they'll come at least). These are the people we want to continue having in our guild and establish raiding schedules in ways that allow at least enough of them to complete to a 25man or 2x10man groups. These people tend to be those respected in the guild and usually the most fun people to hang out with.

Casual players: These players play the game adequately and are quite capable of killing any encounter on normal modes. They may or maynot devote a lot of time to the game but if you put them into a hardmode encounter, chances are it'll take them a loooooong time for them to get the hang of it and a lot of handholding while they do. These people are the "filler". They're mostly quite fun people and we like to have them in the guild despite their mediocre raiding skills. Once our more hardcore players are done with most content, we tend to team up with these people with alts of the hardcore people and take a longer route through the hardmode content. Sometimes we'll get to the end of it, sometimes we wont. We still enjoy the ride though.

Leechers: These are people who think the "casual" label allows them a free ride to raids. They expect to log in whenever they want and that there'll be a spot waiting for them. They dont care about how well they play, they expect to be carried. Problem is, with relaxed raiding commitment rules, sometimes we need them to fill up spots. Or they're friend/significant other/bestbuddy of somebody. These come & go though so we're not overly concerned with their pleasure of the guild.

When you have 100+ accounts in your guild and only one 25man raiding setup, this is the sort of setup you get. I know we could change our rules to "clean up" the groups but we really like the guild atmosphere that we have. And up till now, the most we've missed is 25man hardmode. Come cataclysm, that wont be a problem either.

Schedulewise, on our most "busy" times, we have a raid almost every day. With so many diverse people & groups, there's enough time & people to form multiple raids to please most people. however the ones we really care about usually take 2 days of 3 hours raiding, thus our actual casual status.

[Blacksen]

The difference between "casual" and "hardcore" is that hardcore players value performance absolute.

I don't think anyone can be labeled "completely casual" or "completely hardcore" - it's more of a spectrum. But the reality is that "casual" players don't try to maximize their character's potential - they don't care. They hit buttons, damage goes out. Hardcore players value performance to an absolute extent. It is their #1 goal in the game: to perform.

[Bovinity]

The difference between "casual" and "hardcore" is that hardcore players value performance absolute.

I don't think anyone can be labeled "completely casual" or "completely hardcore" - it's more of a spectrum. But the reality is that "casual" players don't try to maximize their character's potential - they don't care. They hit buttons, damage goes out. Hardcore players value performance to an absolute extent. It is their #1 goal in the game: to perform.

Sorry, but that's total BS and indicative of the "casual = bad" attitude that was already discussed.

[Blacksen]

Sorry, but that's total BS and indicative of the "casual = bad" attitude that was already discussed.

A "casual" player can care about performance too - that was my point. Nearly every WoW player must care about performance at some level. You need to be good enough to complete the dungeon or whatever it is you're doing.

But "hardcore" players value performance absolutely. They value it above friendships, above loyalty, above time required, above gold requirement, etc. Again, you're focusing on the word "performance" - everyone values performance. The key word in what I said was absolute. Hardcore players leave their guild when it stops progressing. They quit the game or reroll to a different class if theirs can't perform as well as they want. They value challenging playstyles rather than easy one (feral druids, for example). They feel like a failure if they didn't do as much DPS as they could do on boss X, even if the boss dies.

The most hardcore players flask for VoA. Casual players don't. From a raid leader standpoint, the hardcore player here is the "better" player - he/she is values his/her individual performance enough to use a flask.





Just so you know, there's a lot of science already out there on the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal_theory

Hardcore players have a "Mastery Orientation."
Casual players have a "Performance Orientation."

[Bovinity]

VoA? Heck, I'll flask, food, and nitpick my own performance in a 5-man heroic, but I'm not hardcore. =(

You're just painting with too broad a brush when you make sweeping comments like that. Even Joe Casual can take his performance very seriously. He might not be doing Lich King 25 Hard Mode for one reason or another. But what he does do, he takes seriously. He might be busting his butt to be the *absolute best* player he can, even though he'll never be recognized as such because he won't ever be "l33t geared".

Even when I was terribly busy with work and could only raid once a week, if that, I still spent time in Rawr and spreadsheets and trying to ensure that I was always pulling my weight when I did finally get to do something...even when it was only 4 bosses in Ulduar. But I'm still not a "hardcore" player. I just take what little I get to do seriously.

[Goros]

I'm in Bovinity's definition. But I have RL concerns that keep me from being able to raid the same lockout 3 nights a week. Salaried management, house, 2 trucks, dog, 3 cats, wife, 2.5 acre yard, barn, snowmobiles, networking events, charity events, family stuff...I'll stack myself up against any other arcane mage or dk tank as far as skill goes any day of the week...but life curbstomped me around the time I stopped playing Shadowbane and got out of college.

See, truly hardcore people (like myself) back then would make it their goal in life to destroy everything you have in game and force you off the server. Camping your city (your alts, your newbs, etc), letting you farm a couple million gold and killing you, then looting your corpse...WoW doesn't let you do that, but it's just as well because I'd probably be divorced and one of those 350 pound losers pissing in a mountain dew bottle instead of walking the 25 feet to the bathroom during trash pulls.

[Blacksen]

Okay, let me restart here. There's simply no definable term for either "casual" or "hardcore." Some people can see a "hardcore" player as someone who's killed heroic Lich King on a 2-night or 3-night schedule. Other's see a "hardcore" player as someone who raids 5 nights a week but is only 10/12 heroic.

Let's try defining them this way:

Qualities of a Hardcore Player
- Higher time commitment to the game
- Higher time commitment to the game outside of the game
- Values individual performance over things like game-money, friendships, loyalty
- Finds methods to improve while not playing
- General Mastery Orientation to the game
- Knows multiple classes
- Most in-game actions are done to further maximize their character

Qualities of a Casual Player
- Lower time commitment to the game
- Lower time commitment to the game outside of the game
- Values friendships, teamwork, and social aspects in the game.
- General Performance Orientation to the game.
- Knows their class pretty well, but not the advanced mechanics of other classes
- Most in-game actions are done to have fun with friends and be a part of a team




Again, no one player is "fully" in either category. It's a spectrum. I happily raided 3 hours this week. We went 12/12 heroic and heroic Halion in 3 hours, but still, just 3 hours. Our "full" schedule is 3 nights/wk. Are we "hardcore"? Depends how you define it. We got the #55 US heroic Lich King kill, but we never raided more than 10 hours in a given week.

Bovinity is a great example of blurring the lines. He spends very little time in game, but clearly he spends quite a bit of time on these forums :-P

[Bovinity]

Bovinity is a great example of blurring the lines. He spends very little time in game, but clearly he spends quite a bit of time on these forums :-P

It's true, I do!

[Goros]

I like this breakdown. Mostly I do fall in between the 2, here's a quick breakdown:

- Lower time commitment to the game
- Higher time commitment to the game outside of the game
- Values friendships, teamwork, and social aspects in the game. (The Guild I GM is based on this, and has been for 8+ years)
- Finds methods to improve while not playing
- General Mastery Orientation to the game
- Knows multiple classes
- Most in-game actions are done to further maximize their character

I raid 3-1/2 Hours in a 25 man and 4 hours in a 10 man, once a week. 11/12HM icc10, 1 achievement from Glory...but haven't messed with RS at all because ICC and the mount is the focus. The 25 man was really more for the benefit of the guild until recently, now we run 2...a casual and a progression and 2 weeks in we're 10/12, clearing all 10 with HM marrowgar and HM lootship both weeks.

I'm not exactly sure where I fall, because i spend TOO much time on forums and doing management stuff, and might be slightly undiagnosed OCD with the time I spend doing gear on Rawr and forum stuff, planning raid events and delegating to the officers & IC.

I think I have the guild up to 5 10 man raid groups and 2 25 man groups running each week...with no raids on monday or tuesday atm.

Yeah...I'm a shmuck.

[gd_void]

I think i've created a monster.

Quite a few good points here, I've spent the time since Tuesday(when i posted the thread) asking around US-Thrall. Running a few raids and what not the general answer i got was 'progression'

I think blacksen has nailed it on his last post in the differences.

I think the reason Hardcore people really get progression(and so much faster) is because when you put 25 people in a raid who want to be the best at X class, instead of 25 people who want to get X gear(or X boss). you'll get much further. on the same note however when ever you put 25 people in the same group that want to be the best in X class, epeen's tend to clash(out side of raids normaly).

but i would also like to add another criteria, I believe a Hardcore, or 'Good casual' to quote someone else, is able to take the information they are given and know what it means, for example, I'm a fury warrior, Do i yell at the better geared hunter then me for not matching my dps on Saurfang? the Abilty to look at meter and understand them is apparently an art in wow now. the ability to not look at meters is almost unheard of anymore

[lubz]

What is described so far in this thread is how the labels should be assigned. However, in reality the whole hardcore vs casual classification is raiding guilds becomes a fallacy in my opinion. Which label a guild picks comes down to two factors

1. Which group does the recruiting officer want to identify himself with?
Realize that most guilds will have one, or very few persons involved in the recruitment messages they send out. Which label is picked depends pretty much on the viewpoint of one of the officers. Would you trust a random guy in a pug saying that his guild is the best in world of warcraft? That guy could be writing the recruitment posts for all you know.

There are pros and cons with both groups. Being casual identifies the guild as one that doesn't shy away from just having a good time. Being hardcore carries a (often false) stigma that this guild is there to "get the job done", and not to socialize. On the opposite side of things, a casual guild also signals that progression comes in 2nd order (often making "serious" players shy away), while a hardcore guild should have it set as their first priority.

2. How well do the guild perform?
It's very unnatural for a guild who struggles 5 nights a week on LK normal 10 man to classify themselves as hardcore, even if their raids environment turns out to be just that. The only thing that separated those from the guilds that call themselves hardcore are skill. In fact, i was in a guild in TBC who raided 25 man four nights a week, and refused to call themselves a raiding guild! Since skill is probably best measured in progress, checking a guilds progress is a much better measurement of the hardcore-o-meter than trusting their own label.

One more thing worth keeping in mind is that hardcore vs casual is not either/or. You can see it as a line with utter awesomeness top10 guild on one end of the scale and your mother in law's friends who tried marrowgar once and gave up on the other end. All guilds rank somewhere in the middle, and from my (anecdotal) evidence, it seems which label they is more or less arbitrary

[Jammer Six]

The difference between a casual raider and a hardcore raider is what guild they get into.

No. There are hard core, first rate raiders who hate guilds, and are in "guilds" of two-- them and their wives. There are other front line, progression raiders, who are chewing on the Lich King as we speak, wearing 264 and 277 gear, who are in the same guild that they started in, and simply raid with other guilds. They get the invitations because the hard core progression guilds know who they are, know how good they are, and will hold a spot for them regardless of what guild they belong to.

To these Raiders, (note the capital) guilds are an irritant, and a framework of drama that they largely ignore.

Guilds have nothing to do with raiding unless a Raider wants it that way.

Wiping guilds will always be with us, they are out there right now, with regularly scheduled "rep runs" in ICC, because they can't even get Marrowgar down.

And there are First Rate Raiders lurking in them, because "Raiding" guilds have nothing to offer other than a different flavor of guild drama.

If a Kingslayer is willing to run with you, or with your guild run, and shows up wearing 277, you'll take him, and you won't care what guild he's from.

Raiding is about skill, cooperation and persistence, not guilds. A skilled Raider can go where he or she wants, with whoever he or she desires.

I agree that all guilds are spectrums, and all players are spectrums. Skill, commitment, time, availability. Skill is the only one I would capitalize.

Put two players together, in a guild (or not) and it all changes.

Personally, I've given up on guilds, largely because there are no guilds that I've seen, on any server, that deliver what they try to deliver.

So I stick to defining the type of raiding I do by single raids, on any given night.

Carry on.

[Tugavelho]

[Clip]

Qualities of a Hardcore Player
- Higher time commitment to the game
- Higher time commitment to the game outside of the game
- Values individual performance over things like game-money, friendships, loyalty
- Finds methods to improve while not playing
- General Mastery Orientation to the game
- Knows multiple classes
- Most in-game actions are done to further maximize their character

Qualities of a Casual Player
- Lower time commitment to the game
- Lower time commitment to the game outside of the game
- Values friendships, teamwork, and social aspects in the game.
- General Performance Orientation to the game.
- Knows their class pretty well, but not the advanced mechanics of other classes
- Most in-game actions are done to have fun with friends and be a part of a team




[Clip]

I'm curious, I see myself as a casual player because I don't raid more than 4 days every two weeks due to working in rotating shifts, but I fall in:

- Higher time commitment to the game (7 days a week, at least 3h a day)
- Higher time commitment to the game outside of the game (almost all my free time)
- Values friendships, teamwork, and social aspects in the game.
- Finds methods to improve while not playing
- General Mastery Orientation to the game (always try to surpass myself)
- Knows their class pretty well, but not the advanced mechanics of other classes
- Most in-game actions are done to further maximize their character

Which puts me on hardcore raider with 5/7 qualities.

In reality I'd raid 7/7 days a week if I could but due to my working schedule I'll never get to an hadcore guild so I'm ampered in my progress, in my guild we do raid 2 days a week ICC10 and 2 days a week ICC25, however, as a casual guild we almost always get new people to the raid and have to teach them and wait for them to get into the fight mechanics; So I'm stuck in Sindragosa nm altought I've downed Halion already.


Am I a casual or an hardcore player? Really don't know.