Hard Core Raiding VS Casual

[gd_void]

I'm Rather Curious as to what People Thoughts are on the Differences anymore are between these two types of players.

In my personal Experience Hard Core players we're Knowledgeable about their class, Spent a Fair amount of time raiding, and We're progressed. a Casual player while Capable about being knowledgeable about their class Just doesn't Devote the time and there for loses the progression. But Perhaps my Perception is blurred but it appears to me that the lines arn't drawn So crisply anymore, is it because of the easy of the game? Lack of overall player Skill/knowledge?

I mean it's completely feasible to get Well geared, On thrall anything over 6K gs is 'well geared'. and spend maybe 5-6 hours a week raiding.

Has the Difference Dissolved down to those willing to spend 3-5 hours a day Grinding on an encounter and those who quit after a few wipes? I still remember my Casual Vanilla guild, Week after week banging on heads on rag, And Giving raz a total of two tries in Four months.

[Bashal]

Ask three different people what the difference is and you'll get three different answers.

Personally, I'd define hard-core guilds as:

1) Those who tend to have heavier raiding schedules (3-4+ days per week).
2) Raids are always scheduled events (with penalties for missing a raid or arriving late/unprepared)
3) Groups are built with a mind to optimizing raid composition.
4) Are very specific about performance, attendance requirements, attitude and preparedness
5) Tend to make use of the more complex loot distribution methods
6) Are more concerned about their rate of progression and standing on the servers

A more casual guild will possibly still embrace one or more of the above, but not all of them. A very casual guild will not embrace any of the above.

[Bashal]

Sorry for the double-post:

Hard core players are willing to go along with guilds that have hard-core rules, either because they agree with those standards, or are willing to put up with it for other reasons (i.e. as a means to an end).

[gd_void]

Ask three different people what the difference is and you'll get three different answers.

I Agree with that 100% but that's why i made the thread, I'm interested in knowing how peoples views have changed over time, seeing as how the Difficulty curve has become more like a stroll up a slight incline

[Bashal]

seeing as how the Difficulty curve has become more like a stroll up a slight incline

I hear that, too: that raiding is way too easy now and so on. It may be for the top guilds, with a few exceptions. But from running with more mediocre or casual guilds, as well as pugs, either the skill of the average player dropped sharply or there's still plenty of folks out there that have trouble with the difficulty of raids.

If you are in an organized guild that has some sensible rules about gearing and performance (even if not quite up to hard-core standards), you'll at least see a LK10 kill; if not, you probably won't get that far.

[gd_void]

Yea, I pug quite a bit on all three of my toons, I haven't found a guild that real fits me on thrall just yet. But I suppose that would also be the Difference between HC/Casual. Back in Uld I was willing to put up with a guild that I didn't really care for, in the sake of progression but now it's come down to i would rather have fun then worry about getting that hm-lk kill(or normal Lk kill sadly enough)

[Bashal]

Back in Uld I was willing to put up with a guild that I didn't really care for, in the sake of progression but now it's come down to i would rather have fun then worry about getting that hm-lk kill(or normal Lk kill sadly enough)

I've often wondered how many people in the more successful guilds are "just along for the ride". I don't mean they are looking to be carried, but they want that full-clear, are capable, and are willing to "put up with" a system or method that maybe isn't so enjoyable for them. Or at least begins to wear on them a bit.

People in that category have a bit of a dilemma, really: they want progression, but don't like the way that seems to need to be done. They can go more casual but then have to accept less progression (or slower progression, at least), or they can stick with the better progression but be unhappy about the environment.

It's kind of lose/lose, for them.

[gd_void]

It is, the guild i was talking about used a 'loot council' which ment 'If i dont want it you can have it'

[Bovinity]

In my personal Experience Hard Core players we're Knowledgeable about their class, Spent a Fair amount of time raiding, and We're progressed. a Casual player while Capable about being knowledgeable about their class Just doesn't Devote the time and there for loses the progression. But Perhaps my Perception is blurred but it appears to me that the lines arn't drawn So crisply anymore, is it because of the easy of the game? Lack of overall player Skill/knowledge?

Casual raiders know their class and devote time and effort as well.

The difference between a casual raider and a hardcore raider is what guild they get into.

[Bashal]

Casual raiders know their class and devote time and effort as well.

The difference between a casual raider and a hardcore raider is what guild they get into.

I fully agree, but I'd also tack on "and why they are in a certain kind of guild."

I think a good player can work his or her way into a more progression-oriented guild eventually if that's what they are really after. But sometimes they'd rather not; their reasons are many, varied, and often valid.

[gd_void]

Casual raiders know their class and devote time and effort as well.

The difference between a casual raider and a hardcore raider is what guild they get into.

I would disagree honestly i find that most Players today do not know the in's and out's of their class and are unwilling to spend the time to learn them. As stated i pug all the time and there are quite a few people out there who are absolutly clueless about their class. The two classes i run into most often with this problem are Fury warriors and Warlocks. I'm not expert on warlocks but I know something is up when a 5800gs warlock cant break 5K dps, on any fight, with a 30% buff.

[kolben]

I don't think of "hardcore" as having ridiculous rules, although some probably do. I think of it as what a raid group is willing to do whatever it takes to be at the top which doesn't necessarily mean being a bunch of hot head ass hats - but it does mean sacrificing everything to chase the top spot. The game doesn't require you to be a genius spreadsheet nerd - it only requires you to play your character thoughtfully at a high level of cooperation with other players and gtfo the fire.

I think of casual as everyone else who isn't spending all day and night worrying about their server ranking and hand wringing over who will get so-and-so raid boss first. Unfortunately casual carries connotations of "bad" in the wow gaming culture, which is dumb. I can live with getting 50% of what a hardcore guild does in 6 hours a week.

[Bovinity]

I would disagree honestly i find that most Players today do not know the in's and out's of their class and are unwilling to spend the time to learn them. As stated i pug all the time and there are quite a few people out there who are absolutly clueless about their class. The two classes i run into most often with this problem are Fury warriors and Warlocks. I'm not expert on warlocks but I know something is up when a 5800gs warlock cant break 5K dps, on any fight, with a 30% buff.

Then you're not talking about "casual raiders" you're just talking about idiots. Just being a "casual raider" doesn't mean you're terrible at the game and too dumb to not stand in fire, it generally means that you simply haven't had the RL time/schedule or in-game connections to get into a "hardcore raider" situation.

[Loganisis]

As a casual player, serious raider, I find that as I become more experienced with end-game raiding, I wish there was a choice in between the hardcore guild where the interaction is often competative even in casual chat and casual guilds that don't focus when raiding and are happy with 10/12.

I spend a lot of time screwing off, just exploring world, working on old achieves, avoiding PvP, things like that. But when I walk into that instance it's all about min/maxing output. I want the fun atmosphere of a casual guild and the raiding atmosphere where 'okay' is considered failure of a hardcore raiding guild. I like being pushed in raids, that does satisfy my competative nature, but I the preening and constant competativeness of most of the serious raiding guilds I know off is not something I want.

Does this make any sense?

[gd_void]

@ Bovinity what would you define this third group as then? If they aren't hard core and aren't casual, then what would they be, I believe this third group of people is going to be much larger then you think they may be.

[Kazeyonoma]

I think there's a distinction here that needs to be drawn.

new players, bad players, good players, veterans, has NOTHING to do with casual vs hard core. You can have newer players who are hard core, because they do their work, learn their class, and apply to a hard core guild.

the only unbiased difference between hardcore and casual, is how much time they spend raiding progression bosses.

[Bowen]

I see two splits, people skilled and get stuff done efficiently with their time and the other half are people who raid the same amount of time if not more than the first half and get fuuuuuk all done.

It boils inside when people and friends in game say yes but I haven't done LK normal because I'm not hardcore like you or don't have the time, what time ! it takes like 3hrs to clear 11/12 even less on normal modes and then you do LK, but then I find out these people raid 3/4 times a week and are at 10/12 normal.

[Bovinity]

new players, bad players, good players, veterans, has NOTHING to do with casual vs hard core. You can have newer players who are hard core, because they do their work, learn their class, and apply to a hard core guild.

the only unbiased difference between hardcore and casual, is how much time they spend raiding progression bosses.

I guess that's what I was trying to say before.

Too many people look down on the "casual" label because they somehow think it means you're bad. Being someone who's been forced into that "casual" group nowadays, I take exception to it. =D

[Bashal]

I don't think of "hardcore" as having ridiculous rules, although some probably do.

It really all depends on your own goals, personality, etc., as to what you see as reasonable or not. I would hope that most people in top-end guilds are there because it all seems reasonable to them, or at least doesn't disturb them overmuch.

I think of casual as everyone else who isn't spending all day and night worrying about their server ranking and hand wringing over who will get so-and-so raid boss first.

That encompasses a very large group of people, though. Some of those folks are terrible, ignorant, horrible players. Some of them are really good, good enough to be in a top raiding guild. Most are somewhere in-between.

The real problem with the various types of people is when they don't "stick to their own", or perhaps better put, they don't "live and let live". For example:

* The horrible player that feels self-entitled, that demands that others carry him, that refuses to try and play more on the level of the people he's surrounded himself with, causes a problem.
* The leet player that nerd rages at everyone who is not up to his standards (when he has willingly surrounded himself with such), causes a problem.

And so on.

[gd_void]

Maybe casual does have a stigma attached to it. I'm Casual and i think it's a good thing I end up getting more overall enjoyment out of the game Instead of just the enjoyment of progression, but that's probably another thread entirely 'Still didn't down boss, i'm logging off for awhile'

I would honestly agree with bowen on his point

But i think another distinction would be Preparation Reading the boss fights before the raid, Bringing your own Consumables, Being repaired, And being out side the raid ready to go at Invite time instead of Waiting in dal for an invite then asking for a summon(grrr). all that eats up time and there for limits progression(due to time being able to spend on bosses).