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Thread: Priest Shield and Prot. Pallys?

  1. #1
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    Priest Shield and Prot. Pallys?

    Hello

    I was healing a dungeon the other day when the Pally Tank told me not to shield him, that my priest shield interfered w/ his mana regen thus causing him to have to stop to drink water/mana while tanking.

    I know in patch 3.2 they changed the way the priest shield effects rage but I am not 100% sure about pallys. Of all my healing (I have 2 priests and a druid) I have never been asked this by a pally. His reason was he regens mana by taking damage?

    He was quite obstinate about it and due to the heavy damage he was taking there was no way to keep him up w/o a shield.

    I am pretty sure he is just misinformed about his class but I would like to be sure. I am a holy priest, any information on this would be much appreciated.

    Thank you

  2. #2
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    he does get slightly less mana back, but it's not due to incoming damage, it's due to him getting mana from heals (bubbles don't count in the pally's case).

    however, if he was taking heavy damage, there should have been plenty of incoming healing on him. not to mention that pallys have other sources of mana as well. basically, he's kind of right, but probably not very good.

    sometimes i'll stop using my disc bubbles on a pally, but only if he's really geared and taking very little damage.

  3. #3
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    Technically he is correct. However, in five mans, most mana return for prot pallies comes from blessing of sanc, and divine plea. Very little mana actually comes from spiritual attunement, which is the talent that returns mana from effective healing taken. Prot pallies complaining about mana in five mans are usually letting DP fall off between trash packs. DP is on a 60 second CD, has a 15 second duration, and refreshes on melee attacks, if the pally is talented properly. A prot pally has to pull the next group and land an attack before 15 seconds elapses from the time that the last mob of the previous group dies. This can easily be accomplished in most dungeons, there are breaks here and there when you just can't get there in 15 seconds, but if you're usually pulling fast enough, the 60 cd will be up for those long runs between packs. The only exception to this is VH, the timing of spawns in there is just long enough that DP can and will fall off often.

  4. #4
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    Priest Shield and Prot. Pallys?

    I agree with the previous poster. That tank was a bad. Check the prot pally tree for spiritual attunement. That is one of three sources pallys use for mana return. However, in a proper spec, they only fill in one point rather than two. That should give you some perspective on it's relavence compared to the other two.

    The other two are divine plea and blessing of sanctuary.

    Divine plea should always be up, which is possible with a few exceptions, ie VH. This is the best source of mana and is likely where your tank was failing.

    Blessing of sanc gives mana on dodges which helps to have mana consistent even if you avoid damage.

    Having said all that, my pally is approaching 40k armor and gets relatively little heals in a heroic anyways. Priest bubbles can make that even worse and there are frequently no direct heals. So at high gear levels, it would be a relatively reasonable request, but he should be taking very few heals if he is at that point.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  5. #5
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    Found this for you on the forums - it is an excellent explanation:

    So, a paladin tank gets mana back from 3 primary sources:

    1) Divine Plea
    2) Blessing of Sanctuary
    3) Spiritual Attunement

    There are other sources such as judgment of wisdom and seal of wisdom as well. Tanking being what it is, means you probably are NOT going to be sealing wisdom. Judging wisdom is ok.

    Divine Plea is by far the biggest amount of mana return for a paladin. A prot specced paladin even has a talent that refreshes Plea on melee swing. Your shields have no bearing on this.

    Blessing of Sanctuary gives them mana back when they dodge, parry, block. Again, your shields have no bearing on this.

    The third is Spiritual attunement which gives them mana every time they are healed. This talent does not work with absorbs. At the same time, its not where a paladin gets the majority of their mana anyway.

    Now, there are two things contributing to what you are experiencing. It used to be that shields would stop warriors and druids from getting rage. This has been fixed a long time ago, but there are still hold outs that don't understand this.

    The second is that a paladin doesn't get their main mana management tool, Divine Plea, until level 71. The prot Paladin's tanking tools are super mana expensive as well. Consecrate is obscene. So it can be a touch difficult for a paladin to get used to shields. Its not undoable though. I mean, I did it.

    You need to make the call about how stiff backed you are going to be. Shield and weakened soul are a big part of your repertoire. You need to make the call about how much you want to deal with them being prima donnas or just bail on the group.

    Edit: Just to be clear, after level 71 a paladin should stop complaining about mana. Divine plea uptime is their primary source of mana. Prior to level 71, you might want to work with them a bit, but really they should just figure out how to use their other tools such as sealing and judging wisdom.
    You can also help the tank regen some mana by giving him a Renew or Flash Heal if you notice his mana bar getting low.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuffcooky View Post
    You can also help the tank regen some mana by giving him a Renew or Flash Heal if you notice his mana bar getting low.
    Only if he needed the heal in the first place. Spiritual Attunement doesn't grant mana from overheals.

  7. #7
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    Thank you everyone, the replies have been extremely helpful and I now understand pally mana regen and how I heal them.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SOZO View Post
    Thank you everyone, the replies have been extremely helpful and I now understand pally mana regen and how I heal them.
    For me as well. I was wondering about this.

    As for a pally that doesn't want the bubble, don't put it on him, let him see that he still isn't getting mana back. Let him know its a divine plea issue and not a bubble then.

  9. #9
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    Well I would say it depends:

    I just checked out a couple of Raid logs ( I know its a raid and the damage is not comparable) but still.

    In the log from last night I generated 560k mana from Spiritual attunement (only have 1 point in it) and only 200k from divine plea. I think its quite simple:
    If you are a "fresh" 80 tankadin, you will take "a lot " of damage ergo getting more mana from spiritual attunement then from divine plea, and that is where the bubble will be troublesome. You just simply need the damage to have enough mana.

    If you are well geared you also need the damage, because at least for me I do get sometimes into manaproblemes if I cant really cahin pull (fresh level 80 healer with some trigger happy dps)

  10. #10
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    We're talking about 5 mans, of course SA will account for more mana returned in a raid. If you're well geared, you won't be taking much damage at all in a five man so you'll barely need a healer anyway, especially with "trigger happy" dps everything should be dying before it does any damage to you. "Fresh 80" healer? Chain pull and keep an eye on his mana bar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryoku View Post
    If you are a "fresh" 80 tankadin, you will take "a lot " of damage ergo getting more mana from spiritual attunement then from divine plea, and that is where the bubble will be troublesome. You just simply need the damage to have enough mana.
    I see where you're going, but really you'll get enough mana from DP ,if you keep it up, and if you're pulling packs according to your gear level.

  11. #11
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    In the context of 5-mans I think we need to differentiate between small trash pulls, large trash pulls and bosses while also taking into consideration the tanks gearing level when determining what the best mana return system is and how it interacts with power word shield.

    Gearing impacts how much healing is received, the better geared the tank the less healing they will receive resulting in less mana returned from spiritual attunement. This loss is amplified if power word shield is used.

    Judgement of wisdom gives the tank a chance to gain 2% of their mana back on each attack at the cost of 5% of their mana every 9 seconds. However if the tank is judging light which does the same thing except returns 2% of their health then they are further reducing the healing they receive and the benefit from spiritual attunement.

    Blessing of sanctuary returns 2% of the displayed mana each time the tank blocks, parries or dodges this means that larger trash pulls will result in more mana being returned quicker than smaller trash pulls and boss pulls. This would not be affected by power word shield. Obviously the better geared the tank the larger the pulls will likely be and the quicker mana is returned.

    Divine plea returns 25% of the displayed mana over 15 seconds and can have an almost constant uptime if pulls are coordinated correctly. This also is not impacted by power word shield. Divine plea by itself will not restore enough mana by itself to maintain a 969 rotation. Consecrate alone drains 22% of the mana every nine seconds.

    So if you have an appropriately geared tank doing small pulls probably ok using power word shield because majority of their mana will be coming from divine plea and they are probably still being healed for a fair amount meaning spiritual attunement is kicking in.

    Overgeared tank with small pulls is probably going to have some trouble if you throw out power word shield because they aren't going to be healed enough to get any benefit from spiritual attunement and they don't have enough mobs on them to dodge, parry or block for blessing of santuary to kick in.

    Overgeared tank with large pulls probably ok to throw out power word shield because they are receiving enough damage to require minimal healing but more importantly they have enough mobs to dodge, parry or block for blessing of santuary to be significant.

    Appropriately geared tank against a boss is likely to require enough healing that power word shield won't significantly impact them however the mana return from blessing of sanctuary will be minimal since they are only fighting one mob.

    Overgeared tank against a boss may have some problems because they won't be receiving enough healing for spiritual attunement to be impactful and with only one mob won't be receiving a lot of benefit from blessing of sanctuary.

    As an overgeared (for 5-man's) pally tank if the healer feels they need to use power word shield to keep me up I will usually respond by making my trash pulls larger and dropping consecration out of my rotation on boss fights. Those two actions usually solve the mana problem for me.

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