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Thread: warrior threat continued

  1. #1
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    warrior threat continued

    Hey guys,


    I just anted to touch on somthing that often comes up in the forums i read. I always hear that warriors are saposed to pass other classes in a tps race over time. Ive seen ppl respond to such topics in way such as this " my warrior has a 5800 gs below hit and expertise cap, and still dose 11.5k tps."

    now im a little over 6k gs. i am hit caped and almost expertise caped.so granted i should be generating a lt more then that. However last night, i paid aspecial attention to omen. the Dk Tanks in my group (this was a 25 man mostly hard mode fights and full clear) were pulling 16-17k tps at times. So when we have this discussion about threat, rotation, jemming for threat, glyphing for it and so on, I need someone to clear up what exactly you are comparing warriors to in terms of threat generation. Perhaps IM just really under geared for my content, and my tanking counterparts are really over geared. Im hoping its just a miscommunication. But there is no spreadsheet that i am aware of which tells me i can pull 17-18k tps with a 6k gs and under hit and expertise cap. not unless i add significent strength to my gear in one way or another.

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    TPS discussions are rarely filled with accurate breakdowns or reasonable comparisons, they're points where people caught a glimpse of their Omen average, potentially unaware of things that inspired the value, and said, "I did X tps" which may or may not have been inflated by ego.


    What was the point of this thread?
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    TPS discussions are rarely filled with accurate breakdowns or reasonable comparisons, they're points where people caught a glimpse of their Omen average, potentially unaware of things that inspired the value, and said, "I did X tps" which may or may not have been inflated by ego.


    What was the point of this thread?
    someone was asking why tanks are starting to practive unconventional methods of generating threat. I personally have seen everything from gemming str to using dps trinkets. essentially, the argument on one side was "everyone has their way and given the content many ways appear practical" the other side was " there is no threat gen problem, its all rotation, yours is bad. the idea is borderline delusional", and everything between those two sides seemed to have been mentioned in one thread or another. Ive been paying close attention to threat latly, more then i normally would. I understand there is a general baseline theory that many follow in respects to threat gen and how each tanking class measures out in the race, and i understand there was quite a bit of math to support the theory pre 30% buff. However, in icc today, with a 30% buff, I see much evidence that contradicts the aforementioned. Im 12/12 25 icc and 9/12 25h icc. ive yet to see anyone match or beat a dks threat gen. tank dps or otherwise. In an effort to match the threat generated ive been activly researching the topic. ive managed to up my threat gen by a lot, but nothing close to that of other classes.

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    Where were people asking this? Maybe that would be the more appropriate place to answer?
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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    there are many threads on this forum circling around the same topic. often, the threads tend to go off topic, thats when i leave and make a new in an attempt to focus on one spicific topic

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    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&cn=Miahalenge Is this you?

    If so the TPS issue is pretty simple. http://www.wowhead.com/item=51010

    Heroic versions of Bonebreaker or Facelifter 10m, LK 10 man tank wep (N or H) would all improve your threat.

    Or, something that would really help, http://www.wowhead.com/item=50654 off you're next H Lootship that it drops. Yes, it's not a tanking wep per say, but it is a EH upgrade, you don't need the Defense, and it's a 25% wep damage increase.


    You've mentioned the DK that is way above you in threat, does he happen to be using Shadow's Edge, Bryntroll's, or even Shadowmourne (because you haven't linked)?

    My guess is there's a very big difference in the output of your weapon and that's where the threat difference is coming from.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&cn=Miahalenge Is this you?

    If so the TPS issue is pretty simple. http://www.wowhead.com/item=51010

    Heroic versions of Bonebreaker or Facelifter 10m, LK 10 man tank wep (N or H) would all improve your threat.

    Or, something that would really help, http://www.wowhead.com/item=50654 off you're next H Lootship that it drops. Yes, it's not a tanking wep per say, but it is a EH upgrade, you don't need the Defense, and it's a 25% wep damage increase.


    You've mentioned the DK that is way above you in threat, does he happen to be using Shadow's Edge, Bryntroll's, or even Shadowmourne (because you haven't linked)?

    My guess is there's a very big difference in the output of your weapon and that's where the threat difference is coming from.
    this is interesting information

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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    this is interesting information
    I'd be like comparing DPS output between running with Dual N Blades of Culling and Shadow's Edge + H Blade of Culling. The ceiling, even for a perfect rotation, is different, everything else being equal.

    HS and Devastate (plus any white attacks that aren't HS) will all benefit from the threat. The'll be a small AP loss (84*1.1 = 92 AP) since it's Agility instead of strength.

    Obviously the H LK 10 and 25 weps are clearly better, but if threat is an issue, the base damage increase of a more damaging weapon's effect on HS and Devastate will help a great deal.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    I use the DBM raidleader module,its very good for monitoring when things like Tricks and MDs are popped, sure it doesn't tell you who they're on but if tank A is suddenly spiking to 22ktps and tricks has just begun cooling down you can fairly safely assume whats going on. Are you're co-tanks getting dps to help them with threat? I know that none of my guilds tanking team can fight against our hunters/rogues. if they want us to tank something they can force all kinds of tank swapping shennaniggans.

    course if you Glance at omen just after a taunt swap the likewise one tanks TPS is gonna be insane

    War totem's spreadsheet is a pretty good indicatior of your TPS potential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    War totem's spreadsheet is a pretty good indicatior of your TPS potential.
    It's spelled WarTotem!! /slap

    But yeah, the spreadsheet is pretty on top on TPS as long as you can grab a parse from a fight and see what abilities you use. Only thing I don't include is Vigilance, which you should be using on your highest overall threat DPS (usually a Fury Warrior with decent weapons or very decent Hunters). But if you add 10% to the numbers shown there (see sig) then 13k without MD/Tricks is possible in a static fight.

    As said above, you will want to get a good weapon for threat, preferably fast (1.5-1.6) for HS spam. The stats on it are inferior to its DPS though, so the DPS axe is good. Make sure you keep your priorities straight, SS > Rev > Dev with Shockwave on the 3rd GCD when you can. For pure threat, feel free to macro Shield Block to Shield Slam as well. Only when you're comfortable with those rotations/priorities and you have a decent up-to-level weapon should you be worrying about hit/expertise gearing.
    You should also never believe any TPS statement from another tank stating their TPS, because it's mostly read from meters, which are momentary measures. Either tell them to link a spreadsheet or do the DPS test: "I can keep aggro from an 11k DPS Fury Warrior with no tricks" means far more than "I was tanking Festergut and spiking 16k TPS"
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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    Rotation is the primary determinant of good threat generation.

    After that, i've found that your mainhand weapon and your shield up to a point where it starts experiencing heavy blockvalue diminishing returns does more for threat than hit/exp. I ended up switching to Mithrios normal from heroic Facelifter, simply because it generates better threat.

    As for DK tanks, Icy Touch was given a ridiculously high static threat component. If the dk tank was practicing the normal blood DK rotation, then his burst threat would be a little higher but his overall generation would be near enough to not notice anything abnormal. However, a DK fighting for threat could realign his abilities and chain spam a retarded number of icy touchs back to back leading to extreme threat levels. However his dps will drop considerably. There's even a hybrid spec that focuses on getting out maximum number of icy touchs in a short time. Threat levels really go through the roof but the dps suffers considerably. (Weapons dps also means a lot for DKs, even more so than warriors)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fledern View Post
    Rotation is the primary determinant of good threat generation.

    After that, i've found that your mainhand weapon and your shield up to a point where it starts experiencing heavy blockvalue diminishing returns does more for threat than hit/exp. I ended up switching to Mithrios normal from heroic Facelifter, simply because it generates better threat.

    As for DK tanks, Icy Touch was given a ridiculously high static threat component. If the dk tank was practicing the normal blood DK rotation, then his burst threat would be a little higher but his overall generation would be near enough to not notice anything abnormal. However, a DK fighting for threat could realign his abilities and chain spam a retarded number of icy touchs back to back leading to extreme threat levels. However his dps will drop considerably. There's even a hybrid spec that focuses on getting out maximum number of icy touchs in a short time. Threat levels really go through the roof but the dps suffers considerably. (Weapons dps also means a lot for DKs, even more so than warriors)

    I can talk to the dk about rotation and all, but all the fancy talk aside, every fight, she is standing at 15-17k tps consistently. and thts nt me just glancing at omen here and there. Thats watching the fight in the omen window.


    fyi to the question a few posts above: she is using heroic cryptmaker

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    This seems like more of a HALP thread then anything else. Basically I would try to get this moved to the HALP section and suggest including:
    • Armory Link (allow thorough gear, spec, glyph review)
    • Parse of some fights that are a good representation of your raid DPS and both your tanking and the DK tanking in a raid setting
    Based on that info we could provide gear suggestions and more importantly look at the parse to review ability usage and outside threat assistance (tricks, md, etc). A lot of times DPS get used to sending tricks/md to a certain tank and if you happen to be that tank you look like you do crazy threat... but if you aren't that tank it looks like you can't hold anything.

    I am highly entertained by this thread because we have the exact opposite in my guild (my DK replacement doing garbage threat and claiming it is completely due to his class restrictions and that DKs simply can't compare to Warrior threat and nothing can be done about it).

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    World of Logs stuff here: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8...?s=4156&e=4465

    Is this a representative parse? I'll leave the detailed picking apart to the warrior guys, but what immediately leaps out at me is that Heroic Strike uptime is quite low (116 total HS, 56 total melee), and 31 Shield Slams in a 5 minute fight (albeit one with air phases) seems low to me, not least because you had 16 Sword and Board procs. That said, filtering by Sword and Board procs and Shield Slam casts doesn't seem so bad, although there are some oddities:

    [19:04:34.623] Miahalenge gains Sword and Board from Miahalenge
    [19:04:39.717] Miahalenge's Sword and Board fades

    Missed proc there, although I don't know if there was an air phase starting then or whatever.

    [19:05:27.497] Miahalenge gains Sword and Board from Miahalenge
    [19:05:30.993] Miahalenge casts Shield Slam on Blood-Queen Lana'thel

    Slow to react to the proc.

    [19:05:35.265] Miahalenge gains Sword and Board from Miahalenge
    [19:05:40.197] Miahalenge casts Shield Slam on Blood-Queen Lana'thel

    Slower to react to the proc.

    etc.

    I'm by no means an expert at picking apart prot warrior parses, though, so I'll gladly defer to someone who knows warriors better than me.

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    I can't really read the parses, but by comparing when those SnB procs are gained via the buffs cast section of his Wol you can see he let one slide for a long time after the second air phase

    His lack of HS is gonna be a threat loss, on a fight like BQL where as a tank you are taking fast damage, you should be able to maintain 9:1 HS:Melee ratio. Looking at my most recent log I was 33:1


    However, this is a huge tps loss; you are not using shield block offensively. Looking across all your boss encounters that log you used 4 times.....

    Shield Block is a massive TPS gain, when its popped our shield slams get huge, i think 60% increase in its damage is a good estimate, in addition becasue we've pushed hits off the table we're massively increasing the chance we proc enrage form Imp, def stance so another 10% increased damage to everything.Oof course as the off tank on BQL you aren't being hit so its kinda meh, but on the other hand, shield block becomes a pure offensive CD so you can pretty much pop it on CD for more beefy shield slams. Shield block is a very powerful CD, but only used cleverly, its only really effective defensively if you're about to die from lots of fast hits (read soul reaper buffed LK typ attacks) and even then its a minimal damage reduction (maybe 3.5K less damge per hit). On most fights you are not going to die to something you can block anyway so you can feel fairly safe using it as an offensive CD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelnut View Post
    This seems like more of a HALP thread then anything else. Basically I would try to get this moved to the HALP section and suggest including:
    • Armory Link (allow thorough gear, spec, glyph review)
    • Parse of some fights that are a good representation of your raid DPS and both your tanking and the DK tanking in a raid setting
    Based on that info we could provide gear suggestions and more importantly look at the parse to review ability usage and outside threat assistance (tricks, md, etc). A lot of times DPS get used to sending tricks/md to a certain tank and if you happen to be that tank you look like you do crazy threat... but if you aren't that tank it looks like you can't hold anything.

    I am highly entertained by this thread because we have the exact opposite in my guild (my DK replacement doing garbage threat and claiming it is completely due to his class restrictions and that DKs simply can't compare to Warrior threat and nothing can be done about it).
    well please understand, im not saying what can and cant be done, im asking. Ive just walked into a situation where everyone out gears me by a decent amount. as specially the tanks. naturally, they are going to generate more threat then me. But I want to close the gap while i wait for a new mh wepon.
    Last edited by praetoria; 09-03-2010 at 04:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumines View Post
    World of Logs stuff here: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8...?s=4156&e=4465

    Is this a representative parse? I'll leave the detailed picking apart to the warrior guys, but what immediately leaps out at me is that Heroic Strike uptime is quite low (116 total HS, 56 total melee), and 31 Shield Slams in a 5 minute fight (albeit one with air phases) seems low to me, not least because you had 16 Sword and Board procs. That said, filtering by Sword and Board procs and Shield Slam casts doesn't seem so bad, although there are some oddities:

    [19:04:34.623] Miahalenge gains Sword and Board from Miahalenge
    [19:04:39.717] Miahalenge's Sword and Board fades

    Missed proc there, although I don't know if there was an air phase starting then or whatever.

    [19:05:27.497] Miahalenge gains Sword and Board from Miahalenge
    [19:05:30.993] Miahalenge casts Shield Slam on Blood-Queen Lana'thel

    Slow to react to the proc.

    [19:05:35.265] Miahalenge gains Sword and Board from Miahalenge
    [19:05:40.197] Miahalenge casts Shield Slam on Blood-Queen Lana'thel

    Slower to react to the proc.

    etc.

    I'm by no means an expert at picking apart prot warrior parses, though, so I'll gladly defer to someone who knows warriors better than me.
    its hard to compare my logs, because im off tanking most of the fights. We would ahve to have someone look at 2-2.5 minute clips of the fight in order to really pin my rotation flaws.. for example, on bq.... i was ot.. i wasnt focused on threat at all.. i was focused on position. we also ahd someone doing the shadowmourne quest that fight. so the log isnt a clear picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I can't really read the parses, but by comparing when those SnB procs are gained via the buffs cast section of his Wol you can see he let one slide for a long time after the second air phase

    His lack of HS is gonna be a threat loss, on a fight like BQL where as a tank you are taking fast damage, you should be able to maintain 9:1 HS:Melee ratio. Looking at my most recent log I was 33:1


    However, this is a huge tps loss; you are not using shield block offensively. Looking across all your boss encounters that log you used 4 times.....

    Shield Block is a massive TPS gain, when its popped our shield slams get huge, i think 60% increase in its damage is a good estimate, in addition becasue we've pushed hits off the table we're massively increasing the chance we proc enrage form Imp, def stance so another 10% increased damage to everything.Oof course as the off tank on BQL you aren't being hit so its kinda meh, but on the other hand, shield block becomes a pure offensive CD so you can pretty much pop it on CD for more beefy shield slams. Shield block is a very powerful CD, but only used cleverly, its only really effective defensively if you're about to die from lots of fast hits (read soul reaper buffed LK typ attacks) and even then its a minimal damage reduction (maybe 3.5K less damge per hit). On most fights you are not going to die to something you can block anyway so you can feel fairly safe using it as an offensive CD

    I know about use of sb.. but i was unaware of the 9:1 raito.. so thats what i should be aiming for?

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    No, you should aiming to have as close to 1:0 as possible while maintaing enough rage to continue your rotation.

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    As a warrior a few tips I'll share.

    For single target threat I always start with a shield slam and then spam my macro till shield slam is off cool down or sword and board procs to make it available.

    Whats the macro?

    /cast devastate
    /cast heroic strike

    I keep a regular devastate on my bars if I run into low rage situations, which is almost never on heroic bosses in ICC.

    Also key bind Vigilance and Intervene. When someone is riding my ass on threat I hover over their raid frame and hit the bind. Changing Vig during a fight to higher threat targets and intervening them when applicable is a huge help.

    Ive posted this before and had many respected community members agree with me here: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...s+to+all+tanks

    The facts about Expertise and Hit in the current game.

    Look its not that Expertise and Hit do not increase your threat, they do. However they do so on a much smaller scale than people realize.

    How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):
    1) Using your abilities properly. This is paramount, nothing increase your threat more than this.
    2) Spec and Glyphs.
    3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD.
    4) 26 Expertise Skill.
    5) Hit rating.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

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