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Thread: top tanks on server not gemming for straight stam?

  1. #1
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    top tanks on server not gemming for straight stam?

    first off my link:
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&n=Theuglieone

    So I've been bored lately and decided to check out what the top tanks on my server are doing as far as gearing, gemming and enchanting go and I am finding that they are gemming for what seems to be threat instead of stam/ EHP. Which got me to thinking, either I am the only one gearing properly or they are having some serious threat issues. I've seen a bear with some ArP gems, crit gems; and plate tanks with almost all hit/ stam and exp/ stam gems. This leads me to my biggest question, in icc25H do the dps just flat out put out that much threat and should i be keeping an eye on if i start getting threat issues? Currently I have not ran into threat issues other than my first IT missing and am currently seeing my TPS sitting anywhere from 10k -15k on omen.
    So what gives?

    Before any flames come my way, yes i still frost tank, its what i "grew up" on and still love.

  2. #2
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    Ask them WHY. If they can give an explanation which is plausible to you then so be it, but if they cannot, it should be up to you what is correct. After all, what makes me more right than you?

  3. #3
    that 30% buff is playing havock with every thing, thats the only reason i can come up with for thoes players gemming that way

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe1010011010 View Post
    that 30% buff is playing havock with every thing, thats the only reason i can come up with for thoes players gemming that way
    Pretty much this IMO, they could have wore wrathful pvp pieces to boost tank damage for all that matters.

  5. #5
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    The bear with arp gems might have had some DPS pieces on. Hit/Stam gems might be to ensure they're hit capped if they have to taunt on TLK 25, I can't really explain the expertise gems unless they're really low. I'd have to look at their links.

    How far progressed are these so called "best tanks"

    Edit: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...66019267&sid=1

    Only 2 guilds on your server have killed normal arthas 25, and the two guilds that have are no where close to H-TLK25, my guess is, those "best tanks" still aren't really that great, more like, "have ridiculous healers to carry them" Or are just REALLY good at cooldowns. With the 30% buff they're probably able to get away with gemming badly in the content they are doing.
    Last edited by Aggathon; 08-29-2010 at 11:13 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Hit for Pallies and Exp for warriors/DK's is a very viable way to marginally increase tps over EH, especially when the EH isn't need. Not to mention taunts run off spell hit; So many resists on Saurfang, I've chewn through 4 consecutive taunts in a row resisting pretty much lasted the whole rune of blood. If you're not worried about threat, then gem for EH and pure stam for heroic LK25. All there is to it.

  7. #7
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    This depends a ton on who you're raiding with.

    If your guild is still progressing through content, you still gear & gem for EH.
    If your guild has most heroics on farm, then it's a good bet that your dps is grumbling that you're not putting out enough threat. Then you start thinking about threat gemming & enchanting.

    Plus, i bet all those top tanks have alternative gear gemmed & enchanted for max EH in their bags which they put on when they face heroic LK

  8. #8
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    All I know is that at this point I can pull aggro off of my warrior and paladin MT's without issue unless they have a mountain of tricks and MD's to start with. The MT just glyphed vigilance (which he puts on me) to try and get just a little more oomph but I still ripped saurfang off of him like I had taunted him. It's frustrating because I'm not the top DPSer on saurfang (usually top halion and fester though), but I am always top threat. Our MT's are pretty damned good too but as a cat I am generating ~13-14k TPS on saurfang (and probably more like 16k-17k in the opening seconds when we BL and I berserk). The 30% buff is really evil for tanks. I know I've started gemming for threat in my bear gear because I cannot generate that kind of threat and have hit 90k HP. I think I'd rather have 80k HP and 10% more TPS.
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  9. #9
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    In my EH gear, I'm under hit cap (206 i think), under expertise soft cap (25), and outside the first 10-15 seconds I won't have problems staying ahead of dps. Now, in order to do this I do need to keep a perfect rotation, and this is where many tanks are having problems.

    Many think they are "doing it right" so they start gemming for threat when they have problems. I ran in a 25 man pug yesterday with a warrior that "had no problems holding on to threat", but never used heroic strike. When i mentioned adding heroic strike he said "no, shield slam, revenge, and devastate are the big threat moves, I don't have time to hit that", even though it's off the GCD and you can be swapping every melee swing for a heroic strike while still hitting all your other threat moves. The same applies to bears, many are using maul as if it's on the GCD. Some pallies don't really understand the 969 rotation, even though they think they do, I've read posts here where they claim to be doing it right, and after looking at a WoL report it showed they were in fact executing the rotation quite poorly.

    People are more apt to blame gearing/gemming/spec/whatever than their play style when looking for improvement (dps/healers are guilty of this too, it's not just a "tank thing"). Gemming hit/expertise really doesn't boost threat much, and has even less of an impact with a poor/improper rotation. If you're worried about taunts missing there are glyphs for every tank class that will give more than enough hit to make sure a taunt never misses, and glyphs are a hell of a lot cheaper than gems.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akeber View Post
    In my EH gear, I'm under hit cap (206 i think), under expertise soft cap (25), and outside the first 10-15 seconds I won't have problems staying ahead of dps. Now, in order to do this I do need to keep a perfect rotation, and this is where many tanks are having problems.

    Many think they are "doing it right" so they start gemming for threat when they have problems. I ran in a 25 man pug yesterday with a warrior that "had no problems holding on to threat", but never used heroic strike. When i mentioned adding heroic strike he said "no, shield slam, revenge, and devastate are the big threat moves, I don't have time to hit that", even though it's off the GCD and you can be swapping every melee swing for a heroic strike while still hitting all your other threat moves. The same applies to bears, many are using maul as if it's on the GCD. Some pallies don't really understand the 969 rotation, even though they think they do, I've read posts here where they claim to be doing it right, and after looking at a WoL report it showed they were in fact executing the rotation quite poorly.
    I think you are missing the point here, or rather hand waving around it. I clock in about 15.5-16k DPS on our saurfang encounters. I have a .8x threat modifier (12.4-12.8k TPS). Our MT (who is geared 100% for EH, not TPS) theoretical maximum TPS is only 11.1k in a perfect world with every buff and no lag. I'd be amazed if he can break 10.5k for the duration of the fight and 10k is probably a safer bet given lag and human imperfection (I know I don't hit 95% maximum DPS, I think my max is like 18k theoretical). There's a pretty massive gap there. Glyphed vigilance on me and enough front end threat helpers (tricks and MDs) to cover my berserk/blood lust opening *probably* keeps me from eating dirt assuming he nails a perfect rotation ... but if there were two of me in that fight only one of us could go all out because vigilance only covers one target.

    Now the irony is my alt warrior has a max theoretical TPS of almost 12k (800 higher than the MT here), in significantly worse gear than my guild's MT (I'm like a 5.8k GS, he's 6.3k) ... but I am almost hit and exp capped and gemmed slightly towards threat. I'm sure in his level of gear but with *some* attention paid towards TPS he'd be way beyond my lowly warrior and probably cover my kittie here pretty well. Its no secret DPS outscales TPS and that's really my only point here, don't just casually wave your arms and pretend threat is purely because the tank sucks. At the highest end there's not much a warrior at least can do to keep their TPS high enough to cover the DPS. Obviously saurfang is easy-sauce and hard fights like LK are NOT strict DPS races so it's ok ... but again don't misinform people.

    If you're worried about taunts missing there are glyphs for every tank class that will give more than enough hit to make sure a taunt never misses, and glyphs are a hell of a lot cheaper than gems.
    And here you are again with your misinformation. Taunt has a 17% miss rate. The glyph adds 8% or brings it down to 9%. Improved FF or shadowpriest can drop this to 6%. The rest is on the warrior. If you can 100% guarantee you have a boomkinn or shadowpriest in every raid 6% makes them not miss (most tanks have this), if not as is often the case in 10 mans, 9% is your goal (which most tanks do not have). Facts are key to stemming the flow of misinformation.
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  11. #11
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    Remember that the 30% buff increases tank damage by 30% too, and as such their threat. Gemming for threat for progression tanking suggests a lack of ability to play your toon, or that you consider yourself to vastly outgear the content you're doing.

  12. #12
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    top tanks on server not gemming for straight stam?

    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    I think you are missing the point here, or rather hand waving around it. I clock in about 15.5-16k DPS on our saurfang encounters. I have a .8x threat modifier (12.4-12.8k TPS). Our MT (who is geared 100% for EH, not TPS) theoretical maximum TPS is only 11.1k in a perfect world with every buff and no lag. I'd be amazed if he can break 10.5k for the duration of the fight and 10k is probably a safer bet given lag and human imperfection (I know I don't hit 95% maximum DPS, I think my max is like 18k theoretical). There's a pretty massive gap there. Glyphed vigilance on me and enough front end threat helpers (tricks and MDs) to cover my berserk/blood lust opening *probably* keeps me from eating dirt assuming he nails a perfect rotation ... but if there were two of me in that fight only one of us could go all out because vigilance only covers one target.

    Now the irony is my alt warrior has a max theoretical TPS of almost 12k (800 higher than the MT here), in significantly worse gear than my guild's MT (I'm like a 5.8k GS, he's 6.3k) ... but I am almost hit and exp capped and gemmed slightly towards threat. I'm sure in his level of gear but with *some* attention paid towards TPS he'd be way beyond my lowly warrior and probably cover my kittie here pretty well. Its no secret DPS outscales TPS and that's really my only point here, don't just casually wave your arms and pretend threat is purely because the tank sucks. At the highest end there's not much a warrior at least can do to keep their TPS high enough to cover the DPS. Obviously saurfang is easy-sauce and hard fights like LK are NOT strict DPS races so it's ok ... but again don't misinform people.

    And here you are again with your misinformation. Taunt has a 17% miss rate. The glyph adds 8% or brings it down to 9%. Improved FF or shadowpriest can drop this to 6%. The rest is on the warrior. If you can 100% guarantee you have a boomkinn or shadowpriest in every raid 6% makes them not miss (most tanks have this), if not as is often the case in 10 mans, 9% is your goal (which most tanks do not have). Facts are key to stemming the flow of misinformation.
    Again, this is a little misleading. 9% SPELL hit which scales higher meaning you need less melée hit (haven't done the math but something like 6% before buffs). Also, if you are missing 1 or 2 percent, that's statistically 1 or 2 out of 100 taunts. Since you have a backup, every class does, this isn't very critical.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  13. #13
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    feralminded hit it right on the head.


    "Remember that the 30% buff increases tank damage by 30% too, and as such their threat"

    this is not a true statment.


    Its been clearly stated that the 30% buff has caused a clusterf^ck in respected static multipliers that effect threat.


    perfect rotation also assumes the tank never has to move and can focus 100% on his rotation alone.an example for one class: If your a warrior tank, threat is very bursty.. likewise, if you have to adjust positioning, and miss a step in ur rotation because of it, the dps have a good chance to push past ur threat threshold. even thuogh we understand that ehp is king, we have an additional 30% ehp as it stands. Im 8/12 25h icc. I never worrie about dieing with maybe an exception of surfang 25 h during frenzy. However, threat is always a concern. The more threat you can generate, the more dps can focus on large numbers without having to watch the meter. for this reason, I and several other tanks i know with similar progression, have made modifications to the standard rule of thumb.

    This is NOT recomended by me or anyone else i can think of on this site. such modifications should only be considered based on ur raid makeup. I am infact less geared then many of the dps in my raid. so such changes my be bennifical but NOT required to hold aggro on the 6500 gs fury warrior, hunters, and locks.

    The sum of all this is as follows... you ahve to be ready to adjust to each fight as needed based on ur raid group.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by blbbax View Post
    Remember that the 30% buff increases tank damage by 30% too, and as such their threat. Gemming for threat for progression tanking suggests a lack of ability to play your toon, or that you consider yourself to vastly outgear the content you're doing.
    I added the 30% into my TPS calculations. Again I think the issue is now more of semantics. There's effectively no possible way for a warrior tank with max EH to hold down threat off of me without serious shenanigans. That's just really the effect of the 30% buff, at 0% buffs I am close to the line but not over it.
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  15. #15
    With the 30% buff they're probably able to get away with gemming badly in the content they are doing.
    That's most likely what it comes down to. Once content becomes trivalized, people can get away with almost anything. The mistake is when they confuse, "This is so easy I can get away with ArP gems!" with "I'm doing great, ArP gems must be optimal!"

  16. #16
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    Looking at someone armory is pretty subjective. You really have no idea why they are wearing what they are at that moment. I wear several pieces of dps gear for trash to boost threat and just because I can. As mentioned above, if you really want to know, ask them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    That's most likely what it comes down to. Once content becomes trivalized, people can get away with almost anything. The mistake is when they confuse, "This is so easy I can get away with ArP gems!" with "I'm doing great, ArP gems must be optimal!"

    jemming badly is stacking stright stam if your having threat issues knowing full well the current environment warrents threat support. Id venture to say that if your not having any threat issues at this point, it would make a lot more sence to say the dps are bad. if you look at the work of many posters here, you will see in black and white that there is no reason why some dps classes wouldnt pass a tank in threat withoug the tank recieving significent raid support

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    jemming badly is stacking stright stam if your having threat issues knowing full well the current environment warrents threat support. Id venture to say that if your not having any threat issues at this point, it would make a lot more sence to say the dps are bad. if you look at the work of many posters here, you will see in black and white that there is no reason why some dps classes wouldnt pass a tank in threat withoug the tank recieving significent raid support
    I'd say if you are having threat issues at this point, it makes a lot more sense to say you need to look at your rotation. Tanks don't need 'significant' support from the raid. Tricks/MD's off the pull is usually all it takes. There is about 2 fights in ICC that allow the DPS to stand still, and only 1 in hard mode. So threat is not an issue if you are using your abilities properly.

    if you look at the work of many posters here, you will see in black and white that there is no reason why some dps classes wouldnt pass a tank in threat
    I have yet to see this piece of work. Care to link it?
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    I'd say if you are having threat issues at this point, it makes a lot more sense to say you need to look at your rotation. Tanks don't need 'significant' support from the raid. Tricks/MD's off the pull is usually all it takes. There is about 2 fights in ICC that allow the DPS to stand still, and only 1 in hard mode. So threat is not an issue if you are using your abilities properly.



    I have yet to see this piece of work. Care to link it?

    sure anything for you MELL!!


    "Threat IS a problem as of now and it's been foretold right here in this forum that it would happen. When tanks were way ahead in threat and blizzard was nerfing the dps portion of tank threat, it was predicted that when the 30% icc buff hit the compounding effects would start overwhelming the static threat modifiers of tanking abilities. We've come to that point."

    Agg's Prot War Tanking Guide

    I know full well you have spent a lot more time on aggs then me.. I was just highlighting that the replies have gotten interesting over the last month or so.

    Im sorry, but I do not over gear the content im running. MY gs is a little over 6k. the dps i run with range from 6100-6500. and we are 8/12 25 h.. I really cant see how advicating for ehp over threat gen in the current environment is sencable.


    true, I was out of context saying "jemming" is the prefered method at the moment. spicificly, glyphing, and raid support are most often suggested, but more importantly "I'd say if you are having threat issues at this point, it makes a lot more sense to say you need to look at your rotation" Just isnt ture.

    "As for the OPs personal experience with threat, i've been in similar situations. My own guild has stopped raiding 25man content and people broke off for SC2 or just quit till Cataclysm. So instead, i'm regularly running 25HC with the alt raid of our server's #1 guild. Worst dps clocks in at 10K, average being around 13K dps (i'm talking saurfanglike encounters here), going up as high as 15-16K dps. The switch from a casual environment to suddenly where everybody was challenging my threat has been.....both a pleasure and a rude awakening."

    its pretty common today to hear good tanks discussing other means of threat gen outside of rotation. Feralminded hit it right on the head earlier. You can certianly argue im a loonytoon if i change my gems, but thats just one method. I like to try the unconventional for fun. you cant agrue with certinty that threat issues= bad rotation or threat gemming = bad jemming. these are just more obscure attempts to confront the problem.

    BAck to my orrigional point. if yout NOT having a threat problem at this point in progression, the dps are probily bad. and someone who changes out a small amount of ehp for threat when theres a 30% buff is not gemming bad. I salute them for making the attempt. we have yet to have an actual threat guide posted as of the 30% buff. I wouldnt mind seeing one

  20. #20
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    Its not that their DPS is bad, it's just that it largely depends on what kind of DPS they have. For instance Kitties and warriors are probably the worst in terms of threat because we are capable if ridiculous DPS/TPS, are in melee, and have no wipe just a flat 80%. Any guild without a high end kitty or warrior will probably only notice hunters who are very awesome vigilance targets, are ranged, and can wipe threat so really are a non-issue. I am not surprised high end tanks don't notice this but to deny it as an issue and instead counter with "lrn2play newb" is ludicrous.

    I also know for a fact my druid in tanking gear can out-TPS my warrior by a fairly large amount so perhaps it's just a warrior tank issue ... I am not sure of how much TPS a paladin or DK is theoretically capable of but I do know, even with the 30% buff, warriors in EH gear cap out in the low 11k range on perfect connections with perfect rotations ... and that's just flat out not enough to keep up with a 15k+ DPS fury or kitty. The math just doesn't support it.
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