Ret Pallies and Armor Pen and Deathbringer's Will

[Theotherone]

So first my son on his Blood Spec DPS DK lost http://www.wowhead.com/item=50362/deathbringers-will to a Ret Pally; then last week, on my hunter, in a 25 man PuG I lost it to a Ret Pally. Okay here's my question, since my Pally is Tank/Heal, why does a Ret Pally need Armor Pen? The Ret Pallies in my guild can't figure out why a Ret Pally needs Armor Pen over a DK or a Hunter, so perhaps someone here can give some insight.

[ClessThrall]

Armor penetration affects roughly 35% of a ret pally's overall outgoing damage (Auto attacks, CS, DS) so it's not entirely useless, it's just not an optimal stat to stack due to the workings of their holy damage sources with str/ap. The ret pallies that were rolling on DBW were out entirely for the proc (which tiny abom is better overall for ret), or were just greedy.

[Akeber]

RAWR puts DBW as a small upgrade (<50 dps) over DMC:G (+90 str verson), and less DPS than the War Token. For PVE raid DPS purposes, it is far better suited to other classes.

[Khilbron]

They wanted the proc, and lolgearscore. There is no justifiable reason for a ret pally to want dbw.

[sifuedition]

Let me start by saying I am in no way excusing a ret for rolling on it and had to argue with one to not roll in a guild cooperation run recently. Having said that, it could be a lack of trinket upgrades available for ret.

Mirror of truth/corin's cromium coaster
Mark of supremacy

If you weren't in a raiding guild during uld/toc that could do 25s, that's it unless you can afford Greatness and the iLvl 200 makes it harder to get into pugs because they don't inspect. Lots just can't afford Greatness anyways. Pyrite infuser drops frequently off of FL during the weekly but the hit is often wasted (as is the hit from mark of sup.) more than anything, I thinks it's a lack of practically available options unless this is an older toon or in a 25s guild willing to run older content. ArP is just so prevalent on gear now and so many other specs stack it, the stat is likely confusing as well. Heck, it's so prevalent that it is even on some of the ret BiS gear.

[Harmacy]

Let me start by saying I am in no way excusing a ret for rolling on it and had to argue with one to not roll in a guild cooperation run recently. Having said that, it could be a lack of trinket upgrades available for ret.

Mirror of truth/corin's cromium coaster
Mark of supremacy

If you weren't in a raiding guild during uld/toc that could do 25s, that's it unless you can afford Greatness and the iLvl 200 makes it harder to get into pugs because they don't inspect. Lots just can't afford Greatness anyways. Pyrite infuser drops frequently off of FL during the weekly but the hit is often wasted (as is the hit from mark of sup.) more than anything, I thinks it's a lack of practically available options unless this is an older toon or in a 25s guild willing to run older content. ArP is just so prevalent on gear now and so many other specs stack it, the stat is likely confusing as well. Heck, it's so prevalent that it is even on some of the ret BiS gear.

I agree. Plus, very few people are willing to grind emblems for Mirror of Truth anymore, and the other two easily available trinkets (Banner of Victory and Needle-Encrusted Scorpion) both have ArP. So it's entirely possible they were using DBW to replace another ArP trinket.

It's a PuG anyways - there's no guarantee that it will go to good use, wouldn't you feel dumb if you pass on it only to see a Mute Rogue/Enh Shammy roll and win?

So yeah, DBW for Ret is not very good but I wouldn't be so quick to condemn Rets who roll on it in a PuG.

[Akeber]

It's a PuG anyways - there's no guarantee that it will go to good use, wouldn't you feel dumb if you pass on it only to see a Mute Rogue/Enh Shammy roll and win?

So yeah, DBW for Ret is not very good but I wouldn't be so quick to condemn Rets who roll on it in a PuG.

I've never agreed with the "it's a pug so you have to put up with ppl who will roll on stuff that they don't need, or is just plain bad for their class". MLs should know better or listen to the raid when people roll on items that are "bad" for their class/spec.

3-4K gold (at most) for a DMC:G or the 60 frost emblems for the war token are hardly huge efforts for any lvl 80 player, especially since both are essentially "equal" (or better) than DBW for a ret (i don't know about Mut rogues or enh shammies). Both are easily grindable, no reliance on being "lucky".

The "zomg gearscore" pugs may look down on you for a 200 ilvl trinket, but any RL who knows the first thing about pallies will /facepalm at you for using DBW as ret. So, I guess you could say a 200 ilvl trinket would have the "bonus" effect of helping to keep a properly geared ret out of "bad" pugs.

[Scyla]

The trinket is much better for other classes but in a pug you can't expect that people know what is good or bad for them and I can understand why. A trinket that drops in ICC has do be better then an item that is available since the start of the expansion.

So yeah Rets should go for other trinkets (Tiny Abomination/War Totem/Whispering Fanged Skull) but the last time I attended a pug they were only able to kill the first 4 bosses so it might be possible that Putricide is out of reach for the most players and Saurfang isn't (as well as Deathwhisper heroic).

[Harmacy]

I've never agreed with the "it's a pug so you have to put up with ppl who will roll on stuff that they don't need, or is just plain bad for their class". MLs should know better or listen to the raid when people roll on items that are "bad" for their class/spec.

Unfortunately it's not that easy, sometimes stupid BS and rumors are "common knowledge" and so listening to the raid could be a very very bad plan.

I've been told, as a Paladin tank alt, that I should not be taking gear with expertise, and in fact had a good chunk of the raid getting angry with me while I /facepalmed and directed them to Maintankadin. (This was in ICC, long after expertise became a strong stat for us)

I've also been called "fail" on my Disc Priest for rolling on a spirit staff, because "Disc doesn't use Spirit".

So yeah, back on topic, the Ret Pallies were simultaneously within their rights to roll on DBW and fairly selfish to do so. I was just explaining that it could have been a decent-sized upgrade, not that it was a good decision to roll against people who would use it much much more effectively.

[sifuedition]

I've never agreed with the "it's a pug so you have to put up with ppl who will roll on stuff that they don't need, or is just plain bad for their class". MLs should know better or listen to the raid when people roll on items that are "bad" for their class/spec.

3-4K gold (at most) for a DMC:G or the 60 frost emblems for the war token are hardly huge efforts for any lvl 80 player, especially since both are essentially "equal" (or better) than DBW for a ret (i don't know about Mut rogues or enh shammies). Both are easily grindable, no reliance on being "lucky".

The "zomg gearscore" pugs may look down on you for a 200 ilvl trinket, but any RL who knows the first thing about pallies will /facepalm at you for using DBW as ret. So, I guess you could say a 200 ilvl trinket would have the "bonus" effect of helping to keep a properly geared ret out of "bad" pugs.

So, my realm, 4k is the bare min for DMC:G. I'm glad yours is better but doesn't make it any easier for me to get one. Regardless of yow many times I hear it, 4k gold is not and never has been trivial for me.

And now, out 4-4.5k gold, our hypothetical ret has one strong trinket. Mirror is adequate at best, IMO, when you compare it to the improvement many other specs get from their trinkets. Herkemal shows well (is ranked high) on rawr but, again, IMO, it isn't very strong for ret. The Ruby Sanctum trink shouldn't show so well for ret but it does. It seems that a lot of these trinkets show so well simply due to the weakness of pally trinkets in general.

[Guzug]

Honestly, it's a pug so the argument that "x is better for this class" is pointless. Where is the line drawn? Ret is 35%... Enh is 60%... dks are 80ish depending on spec... Warriors are 90+.... Where does the line get drawn and who draws it? is it stated before starting? Is there a similar rule in place for items with haste going to those classes who gain the most from it? The only place I've ever seen something like this applied is setting melée weapons for melée classes while ranged are given to hunters as priority. And that only works because it's simple and even then doesn't always work.

And id have to ask, what makes anyone feel another member of a pug is required to pass along a desired item to someone they havenever met befor and may well never meet again?

If it's a guild run, then it's a different ballgame. There are people you may hold allegiances to and it is in your continued best interest to see gear distributed appropriately.

[Rennadrel]

Any Retribution Paladin using Deathbringer's Will should be /gkicked and removed from raid. Sorry if it seems harsh but only a retard uses a trinket with Armor Penetration, the trinket is BIS for hunters, warriors, rogues and is a very highly rated trinket for blood death knight tanks. The only pieces of gear with Armor Pen on them that are BIS are Might of Blight (heroic) and the Coldwraith Links (either reg or heroic) and either Shadow's Edge or Shadowmourne which both have the stat on them, otherwise anyone using the badge plate gear is bad, that stuff is fine for Fury warriors but not for Ret pallies.

Retribution should be sticking to Tiny Abomination in A Jar and either heroic Death's Choice/Verdict, the War Token or heroic Whispering Fanged Skull for the second trinket. In terms of overall DPS output, I am pushing around 13k on button mash boss fights like Saurfang with Tiny Abom and the War Token as my trinkets, so long as you keep the stacks up on it the haste makes your CD's short and your swing speed crazy fast.

[sifuedition]

It's nice you have access to those trinkets, but you have completely ignored that we were also considering the availabilty. Again, I want to restate that I don't advocate a ret going for it. The OP asked "why" and I am trying to address the psychology of a bad decision.

Also, "highly rated for blood dk tanks"? Ummm, I hope you meant blood dk dps and in that case, it's not bad for unholy either depending on what they are replacing and their current gear.

[Rennadrel]

Getting 60 Frost badges for the War Token isn't hard and most pug 25 ICC raids can do Putricide now, he is pretty easy with the buff so long as people don't stand in slime and can DPS the slimes quick enough. Deathbringer's Will only has 1 proc effect that is useful for Retribution, otherwise it's junk.

And yes, I know Blood DK tanks who use the trinket for tanking since they use Armor Pen just like DPS does, though not as much of it.

Also the War Token I have found benefits the proc and fast stacking of Tiny Abomination in a Jar.

[Akeber]

......but you have completely ignored that we were also considering the availabilty.

Availability? There is no 264 ilvl caster DPS trinket in the first wing of icc 25, does that justify a mage/lock/spriest/boomkin/eleshammy to roll on Althor's Abacus (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50359) from gunship? DPS casters need SP, and it has that, but i don't think anyone would argue to give it to a dps over a healer. "availabiility" can be used to justify all kinds of bad gearing choices, it doesn't make them right.

Spending the time to make the 4K gold to buy a DMC:G is always better than hoping for a "lucky" drop/roll for an upgrade. Maybe it's just me, but I've always looked for the "grindable" (through badges/rep/gold) upgrades and worked towards them. Those are guaranteed upgrades, put in X amount of effort and you will get it. Especially when said grindable items are on par (even at 200 ilvl in the case of the DMC:G) or better. The war token is more dps than DBW for ret, hitting something every ten seconds to keep it stacked is not hard.

Then again, this is why don't run in pugs when I don't know the ML, or at least know that there are some loot rules in place to prevent people from getting loot that is bad for their class/spec. Too many people will roll on anything, whether or not it's good for them.

[sifuedition]

Muradin's spyglass drops from gunship.

[Akeber]

Muradin's spyglass drops from gunship.

The spyglass is from ten man, I was trying to talk stricktly about 25 man loot, but if you want to expand on that, WFS drops from LDW on ten man. Yet another reason a ret shouldn't be rolling on DBW.

[Goros]

Aren't heroic WFS and Heroic Abom BIS for ret?

[Akeber]

Aren't heroic WFS and Heroic Abom BIS for ret?

Correct.

[Vascor]

You see this all the time with PUGs, especially GDKP runs. People getting items that are not itemized for their particular class/spec. I almost think that people just do it in spite. A Ret Pally taking that over a Blood DK is laughable at best. That Ret Pally deserves to be smacked in my opinion.