RP managments and Rune Black outs

[Tengenstein]

My main is a warrior tank. My newest alt is a DK tank

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...yst&cn=Tengulf
isn't she cute?

Until recently she was mainly a frost farming alt for the main, but him and the other pally tank alt are now at the point that they no longer need their frosts for upgrades so i've stated putting some effort into the girl, I've read and reread Satorri's guide to try and overcome the gear Defecit with actually knowing what to do and for the most part she's not too bad.

However I do find myself with no buttons to press quite often; The runes are on CD and I don't have enough Runic power to Deathcoil without dropping below the threshold to keep Runestrike queued and HoW is on CD. Particularily on DnD pulls as I generate 65 RP from the DnD>IT>PS>Pest>How opener. With one runestrike pretty much guaranteed during opening rune set i'm left with the choice of burning it with a DC and waiting the second or so for the runes to be back, or i do nothing and hope runestrikes will proc

Is this normal? should there be portions of the time where i have no buttons to press?

Now this could be just the warrior habit that if Iwas Heroic Striking my self Dry of rage with the warrior I'd be an idiot, however the DK is not a warrior, and Heroic Strike is the poorest Threat per rage ability in the warrior's toolbox, while Runestrike is the best Threat per RP in the DK's toolbox. So I should be managing RP to keep RS queued even if it means skipping a GCD not Death coiling, right?

Next question, should I be weaving the dumps into the rotation? I recall a post somewhere by Satorri discusing the Glyph of Froststrike and how it allowed you to Froststrike sooner. This kinda implied you'd use FS as soon as you got 52 RP rather than dumping at the end of a rotation. However a blue post about the changes to the Rune system in cata indicated that any time a rune was not on CD it was essentially a waste (and thus why they're making the changes in cata). I've kinda conviced myself that the only real time I should Dump RP with DC outside of a rune blackout is if I have above 90 RP, since the next ability is going generate RP past the cap and thus waste it. So weaving in dumps yes/no?

[PatrikL]

Yes rune blackouts are normal but they usually dont last very long. Havent tanked as frost in a while now but as blood they do happen. I try to always have enough RP for a RS, well I try to always have a bit more than that since AMS is good for many situations and it also requires RP. Although I havent tried it in a while I think its still true that missing out on RSs due to too little RP will be an overall threat loss compared to using it for DC or FS. It does take some getting used to, just standing still doing nothing when you have RP to use but it is a good idea in the end.

Not sure about weaving in dumps or not, I usually have two blackouts during my rotation so I've never felt capping has been a problem.

[coe]

Is this normal? should there be portions of the time where i have no buttons to press?

Yes, it is normal. You have posted rotation for trash mobs, so I assume you're talking about tanking 5 mans mostly. DnD costs a lot and that's main reason of your blackout after initial rotation. Later on there shouldn't be as much blackouts as at the beginning, cause you won't use DnD anymore.

When you have blackout you still have plenty things you can do. You could for example use Horn for extra RP, pop some trinket CD just to ease your incoming damage, use Blood Tap to generate one Death Rune for extra Blood Boil, Empower Rune Weapon to refresh new runes, or just spawn ghoul and sacrifice it for big heal.

Next question, should I be weaving the dumps into the rotation? (...) So weaving in dumps yes/no?

I tend to dump whenever I'm between 60 and 100RP to simply not waste it and to not waste Rune Strike. Sometimes it may screw some things with runes if you care about perfect rotation. But you shouldn't, cause you're not dps. You will miss, get parried, so perfect rotation doesn't exist for you. On magic bosses (or those with interrupts) I often don't use DC at all to always have RP for mind freeze and AMS. But I'm blood spec and DC gives crap threat anyway. If you take glyph of FS, you just can dump sooner and more often, cause FS costs less RP.

[gd_void]

Personaly every Rune black out i hit DC ONCE, yea i cap RP all the time but i have RS Macro'd to my every ability (even DC). This Gives me Enough Room to pop my RP Powered CD's when i need them, and still Get a Tiny tiny bit of extra agro from DC, However if your worried about being out of RP you may want to switch your points in Sudden Doom to Scent of blood, Main reason behind this is, Are you really Using Hs that much at all? I find i rarely use it Unless I'm attempting to out damage the DPS there are generaly better options to use that blood/death rune for (IT BB Pest Etc)

[Tengenstein]

I've always liked scent of Blood, but after reading Satorri's Guid i kinda feel as if it's a crutch for mt RP problems, and i should be able to overcome them through learning to play better not talenting for it. My threat is not really an Issune at the moment after the initial disease application, due to the funky TOC/ICC gear my expertise is rocking up at stupid levels meaning i quite easily pull a suatained 12k TPS once i'm ramped up.

Should I be spamming IT when i get Death runes? I generally tend to DS alot (I glyph it so tend to think, I've glyphed it, bloody use it!), but I am tending the HS with my Blood runes, unless they're are more than two targets in which case I BB. Same for Death runes, except I favour DS for single targets.

[gd_void]

I <3 Sent of Blood, if it's a Crutch hurray I've used it since Uld launched so I'm not even sure what it's like to play with out it anymore.

My Personal Rotation is as follows:

Group of mobs - DnD -> It -> Ps -> Pest -> BB -> DS -> DS -> BB -> BB

Single - It ->PS ->Pest ->Hs ->DS ->DS ->IT ->IT ->IT ->IT

Now i use another Crutch in the Glyph of Disease, I cannot think of a Single reason not to use it Not only are you able to get Maximum Duration on all your Diseases For Groups but Also it gives you a free Global to do what ever you want with, Pop Cool downs, Taunt or DG a mob back to you, Run away screaming, Etc.

With that rotation You do DS a lot so the Extra Damage is just more threat, Personally I glyph DnD DS and Disease
My Armory if you want a Comparison: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...=Thrall&cn=Oit

[Tengenstein]

That single taret rotation doesn't work; the last 6 runes requires 4 death runes and an FU pair.


why would you pestilence on a single target?

[TheYanger]

I've always liked scent of Blood, but after reading Satorri's Guid i kinda feel as if it's a crutch for mt RP problems, and i should be able to overcome them through learning to play better not talenting for it. My threat is not really an Issune at the moment after the initial disease application, due to the funky TOC/ICC gear my expertise is rocking up at stupid levels meaning i quite easily pull a suatained 12k TPS once i'm ramped up.

Should I be spamming IT when i get Death runes? I generally tend to DS alot (I glyph it so tend to think, I've glyphed it, bloody use it!), but I am tending the HS with my Blood runes, unless they're are more than two targets in which case I BB. Same for Death runes, except I favour DS for single targets.

Using a talent is a crutch? Scent of Blood gives you extra rp, it's the only way to really generate more as blood, one point is astoundingly useful, more are less useful due to how it works. You can't 'play better' and generate more RP, the only way to generate more is to spec SoB.

[coe]

Personaly every Rune black out i hit DC ONCE, yea i cap RP all the time but i have RS Macro'd to my every ability (even DC). This Gives me Enough Room to pop my RP Powered CD's when i need them, and still Get a Tiny tiny bit of extra agro from DC, However if your worried about being out of RP you may want to switch your points in Sudden Doom to Scent of blood, Main reason behind this is, Are you really Using Hs that much at all? I find i rarely use it Unless I'm attempting to out damage the DPS there are generaly better options to use that blood/death rune for (IT BB Pest Etc)

There are more than one possible gameplay while tanking in Blood, because they buffed IT threat. But HS is intended as main ability in Blood tree (why you even talent for it if you just spam IT?). I'm using HS all the time, I use BB only on packs with 4 and more mobs. On 3 mobs packs I change targets and spam HS. I don't spec for Sudden Doom nor for Scent in my raiding spec, cause I tend to have plenty of RP and threat from DC is minor (I have 0 points in Morbidity).

[gd_void]

That single taret rotation doesn't work; the last 6 runes requires 4 death runes and an FU pair.


why would you pestilence on a single target?

Glyph of Disease.

[Tengenstein]

Using a talent is a crutch? Scent of Blood gives you extra rp, it's the only way to really generate more as blood, one point is astoundingly useful, more are less useful due to how it works. You can't 'play better' and generate more RP, the only way to generate more is to spec SoB.

yeah its the Warrior tank mentality coming through, if run out of rage its becuase spammed heroic strike when i shouldn't have, can't get my head out of my main. I'll try dropping the the points in Sudden doom and morbidity, hated the DnD mechanic anyway, and pick up Imp rune tap and forsce myself into using it, and then 2 points in SoB.

something like this?
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#j0ErqI...sxhxZ0g:GidmM0

I take it that the SoB 1 point is becuase we generall get enough dodges bwtween swing that we con't really consume the effect as fast as we proc it? but as i can't see a better place to shove the other point... any ideas?

Glyph of Disease.

yes but why would yo refresh both you diseases as soon as you put them up?

[coe]

something like this?
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#j0ErqI...sxhxZ0g:GidmM0

Good direction if you want to maximize survivability in raids. I would only put 2 points from SoB to Hysteria and Dancing Rune Weapon. Hysteria for more raid utility, DRW for threat boost. DRW is also nice when you have to put some threat on mob that is in range, cause it has 30 yd range.

Yeah, I'm not a big fun of SoB Never needed that extra RP.

edit: I just noticed that you took Spell Deflection. It works only on direct spells, so I would take Subversion instead, because it will boost threat from your heart strikes.

[Tengenstein]

Threats not too much of a problem, least with the old build, i just don't like having nothing to do at ccertain points, and I do want maximise survivabilty rather than threat; I'll see how 1 point in SoB and 1 in Subversion works, but I do like Spell Deflection, its one of those flavour talents I like the taste of.

[Ralekk]

Now i use another Crutch in the Glyph of Disease, I cannot think of a Single reason not to use it Not only are you able to get Maximum Duration on all your Diseases For Groups but Also it gives you a free Global to do what ever you want with, Pop Cool downs, Taunt or DG a mob back to you, Run away screaming, Etc.

With that rotation You do DS a lot so the Extra Damage is just more threat, Personally I glyph DnD DS and Disease
My Armory if you want a Comparison: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...=Thrall&cn=Oit

I personally think that glyph of diesease and glyph of DnD are wasted glyphs unless the only thing you're planning to tank are 5 mans.If you're looking to raid then glyph of runestrike and glyph of vamp blood along with the death strike one are the way to go.If you can't handle aoe without the other glyphs then you don't know your class well enough,simple as.

To the Op,I reccomend using glyph of frost strike,glyph of obliterate and glyph of rune strike,that's what I use.also I agree with,tengenstein about putting 1 point in scent of blood.It's been proven that it's worth putting a point or 2 in scent of blood.you'l see a considerable amount more RP and that means more rune strikes which in turn means more threat.

[Theotherone]

I tank Frost on my DK and blackouts happens, just a fact of DK tanking, it's not really anything to concerned over; as someone said, dropping DnD is what causes it at the start of the pull. I start every pully with DnD, it's just a habit from when DK's were preceived to have aggro issues at the start of the expansion, and just waitout the blackout. Once you get the rotation going after the pull, you'll find it's not an issue.

I'd suggest switching out your Glyph of Frost Strike (it's not really useful for tanking) and pick up Glyph of Unbreakable Armor - 30% armor increase on a one minute cool down is never a bad thing.

[coe]

Threats not too much of a problem, least with the old build, i just don't like having nothing to do at ccertain points, and I do want maximise survivabilty rather than threat; I'll see how 1 point in SoB and 1 in Subversion works, but I do like Spell Deflection, its one of those flavour talents I like the taste of.

Keep Speel Deflection then, but I strongly suggest to fill Subversion Blood DK relies on crit chance to generate threat. Check out other abilities we have: Dark Conviction (+5% crit on everything), Imp Death Strike (+6% crit on DS), Might of Mograine (+45% to crit dmg) and finally Bloody Vengeance (+3% dmg at 3 stacks after crit). I think it's important talent. Far more important than SoB.

[TheYanger]

Subversion isn't really all that important. I recommend getting it because it's better than some of the other available choices, but it's not going to make or break anything. Generally the talents you see people kind of sway either way between are sudden doom, subversion, morbidity, which are all very minor. Morbidity doesn't generate enough threat, it's mostly quality of life, sudden doom is purely threat, but it's still barely any, subversion is barely any threat but at least you get the blood presence reduction and yeah, the crit helps keep bloody vengeance stacked, though that's not a huge concern anyway.

[gd_void]

yes but why would yo refresh both you diseases as soon as you put them up?

Basically because i feel the Only way to Properly Maintain the Duration of the Diseases w/ the glyph is to get them on the same cool down.
That is a Personal Dot management tool for me, as i said glyph of Disease is a Crutch but I've gotten so used to it it's hard to live with out.

Good direction if you want to maximize survivability in raids. I would only put 2 points from SoB to Hysteria and Dancing Rune Weapon. Hysteria for more raid utility, DRW for threat boost. DRW is also nice when you have to put some threat on mob that is in range, cause it has 30 yd range.

Unless I'm Horribly Mistaken and they Patched it in DRW doesn't generate threat for the DK, It's more of a pet.

-

I can see the Argument against Glyph of DnD Switching it for Glyph of Rune strike may be the Wiser Choice in terms of Single target threat vs AoE threat

However Perhaps because i have Crutched on it for too long and cant think of a reason not to have it Look at it this way, Glyph of Disease Effectually leads to An Extra IT every other rotation Even on single replacing what would be a PS for an IT.

I'm Curious however as to why Everyone suggest Rune tap+ Imp Rune tap, Perhaps I've been playing for too long with Good healers but it seems like an Absolute waste of Four talent points, When ever i Pop VB It appears at least that i am automatically back up to Full hp. Wouldn't those points be better spent in Spell Deflection and SoB? Spell Deflection is only Single target but there is still a fair amount of that in the game still and that's a considerable Reduction in damage

[TheYanger]

Horribly mistaken. It generates threat, it doesn't get your frost presence modifier though. So in terms of TPS it's not hugely better than anything else for 1 point, but it generates a lot more dps relative to that.
Rune tap is because although it's not AMAZING, it is defiinitely useful at times. Doesn't matter how good your healers are there are times you can save yourself with it, its cost in talent points is too high, but DKs are fine for threat so it's not a hard choice to get more utility instead of 3% more threat. Spell deflection is just not useful. Its chance to proc is very low already, then it only works on certain attacks, which you're likely using cooldowns on anyway. For instance it works on Sindragosa's breath, but you've got what, 20% parry? you'll likely deflect 1 breath over the entire fight. On the other hand you could've just had rune tap and either you're low with a breath coming and you heal, or you use it like a death strike and heal up after it hits.

[coe]

I like Rune Tap a lot. After some patch for those 4 talent points you have 20% heal on 30sec CD. Including ICC buff and VB, this heal might be 20k or so and it's off GCD. On bosses like Sind or Halion I tend to rotate AMS with Rune Tap to ease incoming damage. Using Rune Tap just after breath can save you from melee attack when your healers have to move for example and can't spam you with heals. It needs some practice, but I'm not going out without it

In comparison Spell Deflection is random and you don't have control over it. That is true waste of 3 points for me.

About those glyphs, I don't really understand why you need Glyph of Diseases, but I think that others already explained why it is a waste (DnD one as well).