DPS is either getting worse or I'm getting old and cranky

[swollenpickles]

My main is a hunter I levelled him to 80 and geared him up at the time before looking into alts. I used to read forum threads here and elsewhere with tanks whining about running dungeons and doing more dps/damage than the dps in the groups and thinking people where either (a) exaggerating or (b) making it all up. Now I've never described myself as a great player - I'd say semi-competent - but lately I've been playing my Pally tank more and more (grinding emblems for heirlooms etc) and I've been a little shocked at the state of some of the dps out there.

I'm not complaining about the freshly dinged 80's cause I can understand why they'd be lagging behind in terms of DPS, and everyone has to start somewhere. I'm talking about the guys/girls in relatively decent gear that just come across as clueless. The other day I queued for my daily random zone in and start things up, get to the first boss and a 4.2k gs rogue has done 600 dps, 4k gs mage 900. All the while I've been doing 2.9k dps and the healer, who was as frustrated as me, was over the 1k mark. Clear the first boss and I've dont 70% of the damage for the run. The healer got fed up and left, I sat there for a second and considered staying (I rarely drop groups), then thought screw it, if they can't be stuffed trying why should I bother dragging them behind me.

Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky but lately for every good dps I've found there have been 9 disasters. Hunters gemming strength, spirit and defense, rogues dual wielding tank weapons, people going afk for the majority of the run (and unable to boot them). I honestly don't know how its possible to do less than 1k dps at 80 no matter how bad your gear is.

TLR either dps are getting dumber or there has been an influx of people buying toons off ebay.

[Bowen]

It's terrible when it happens because until the 15mins ? passes you have two choices, Carry them or leave yourself and get a queuing debuff. My gripe is no one is forced to learn anymore, the random queue rewards people who can't be arsed to take pride in gemming, enchanting or even learning to get beyond the basic 2k dps we managed perfectly fine on release week.

I have been working on my paladin healer in heroics, havent played it since tbc raiding days and decided to level it up. Pretty decent performance on him despite my gear at the time, I had two dps pulling 400dps, a tank in acceptable gear, the other dpser pulling about 2.5k. I had to beg the tank not to pull two - four mob packs at a time because the combat would feking drag on for ages causing me to just burn mana.

[Stoutale]

I will admit, I suck as a DPS offspec (fury warrior). That is why I never complain about DPS in my random dungeon runs. I was barely pulling under 3K in the last dungeon run I was in, and I was the highest DPS. I know WHY I'm not pulling DPS, but since I do the offspec DPS so rarely, I forget about various things, or I don't proct slam as it hits, or don't hit Execute fast enough...

[Quinafoi]

There are actually two ends of the spectrum as well. I've also seen tanks artificially up their damage numbers by consistent chain pulling in a group with multiple AoE classes where as soon as the DPS would start to AoE the tank would proceed to take the trash out of the AoE. Bad tanking can also result in low DPS because it isn't only the job of the tank to hold aggro and take the punches, but it is also their job to position the mobs appropriately so the DPS can do theirs. If the tank doesn't let the DPS kill the mobs, then it is the tanks fault. I've actually had random heroics where the group proceeded slower because the tank was moving too fast. Someone doing 3k DPS just chain pulling isn't going to kill things as fast as someone doing 10k DPS and pulling slower.

Players in general are getting worse because they don't require the same level of skill to attain the same level of gear. Their gear is artificially inflated by the devaluing of it overtime, however that doesn't mean they have the skills to actually play at that level when that gear was the high end gear. This applies to all roles. The newer generation of tanks, healers, and DPS are in general less skilled than their predecessors, despite having similar gear.

It isn't an issue with just DPS, however DPS is one of the worst overall. DPS is artificially inflated by the ICC buff. Someone that claims to be 6k DPS neglects to mention the fact that is with a 30% damage buff on AoE trash joins your group and only does 3k when it really counts.

[Jossis]

When Cata comes out .. it will be a big wake up call with most 5man dungeons having more skill on CC ablities and not on spam aoe from what I've seen and heard ..

[Bowen]

The cata 5mans won't remain the difficulty they are current compared to on release, it goes against how they want to attract to a wider player base, quicker runs and will be a nightmare with randoms. I guess we can hope though.

[Grannos]

Well, I can tell you for sure that you not getting old and cranky. Over the last few months, I have seen the very same thing. I have a good example of this. I decided to get back to playing my ret pally. I have not messed with him at all for over 6 months. His gear is crap. I did however spend some gold on a few items from the AH. Even went as far as to spend the gold on epic gems to put into blue gear. I did all this so I could at least do the best DPS possible.

My first instance was heroic UK. I was thinking sweet, an easy one to get back into the game with. I averaged 2.5K. Not the best, but its the best I can do with my gear. i spent over an hour on the target dummies working my rotation, ok, not rotation i guess since I am ret, but getting my priorites worked out.

There was an enhancement shaman in our group who was doing just over 1K. He was not geared to the max, but his lowest item was 219. It was like he was on follow and would just hit attack and walk away. Totems did not drop even one time, and for most of the instance, he did not even have windfury and flame tongue on his weps.

Long story short, I feel your pain. I went out of my way to spend hard earned gold, and time at the target dummies, to make sure that I could perform the very best that I could, yet we carry people like that shaman. I just don't understand it.

[Loganisis]

I use randoms as a chance to practice my Fury rotation and I've been in runs where all 5 of use are averaging iLVL 251+ gear or near there and at first, everyone goes hog wild, we have 3 DPS pulling 5K+ and then its like other DPS realizes other people are throwing out DPS and they just stop. Their 5k drops to 2.5k and stays there the rest of the run.

Tanks do tend to be higher on the DPS charts becasue they typically have a 1 or 2 GCDs of 'extra' damage and this is amplified by pally tanks - so part of the DPS discrepency is the fact you're a pally ;-)

But in general, I think there are a lot of players with little to no clue about how run dungeons, even as the huntard famously said right before he wiped a run by killing the healer and another DPS by gleefully popping his CDs and going all out in a mirrored soul in FoS "I've run this like 40 times".

[Balthazaar]

A lot of interesting stories here. I see, hear and feel your pain ... however I am probably one of those peeps you guys are complaining about ... and to be truthful it really sucks because I want to play my character my way and not be another copy of other toons of my class that are out there all reading the same things and gemming and investing Talent points in all the same things as others are and using identical cycles. Yeah I want to be different and play my way, not to spite anyone else but because it is fun.

I have many toons, just to take two DPS only classes I'll talk about my Rogue and Hunter.

My Hunter (not at 80 yet) almost always tops the DPS (at least 80% of the time) - and I'm not even trying with her - Most of the time I have my original, and only pet, Bear, set on Defensive, while I just stand back Mark the enemy healer and Volley !!! - How much fun is that - well not very for me, but it works! and ppl think I'm actually doing something LOL !

My Rogue, ... I love my Rogue - I have lots of fun stuff I do with my Rogue including...
- Interrupts (no DPS credit for that!!),
- Tricks of the Trade (redirect's aggro to Tank),
- stealthing in to Sap (does anyone even bother with that anymore these days, or even wait/allow a Rogue to do that!) it is so much fun to do and exciting because I never know if I'm going to be detected or not (yes, there is a chance of being detected)
- trying to stay behind a target that typically either moves around a lot or the Tank can't control properly (not blaming tanks it just happens that they turn around sometimes and when I hit 'Backstab" it doesn't work coz they've just turned around to face me) or the tank has dragged them just out of reach)
- timing CD's and hoping your not going to be feared or have mirrored soul cast on you or have one of those annoying dramatic breaks when the Boss does some action that stops all players in their tracks while he goes and picks up something new, etc
- popping Evasion or making sure you've got a healing potion, Felstone left because melee combat classes really shouldn't be fighting in Leather, knowing when to run away from melee because you're apponent is spinning and that WILL KILL YOU!
- trying to guess what is going to happen because my Ping rate (600-900ms) is more critical in melee than it is at ranged combat, because being able to do something with a 5-10 yard margin of error range is harder to judge than at a greater 40yard range margin of error
... and that's just the start of it!
Yep, I have a lot of fun with my Rogue and I work really hard through any and all fights with my Rogue ... but the thing is a lot of the things I have fun doing don't give me any DPS credit - but they do help the group a a whole (at least I believe so) ... so his DPS sucks. Averaging from 1.5k-2.5k!!

All the above things take about 1 sec on average to resolve, before I can pop another ability, so I'm constantly watching the fight and my bars (so that I can press another number when I see the bright glow on the quick action bar that indicates that a particular action is ready to use again), and in that 1 sec a lot can happen in melee to take you out of combat which wouldn't normally take me out of combat nor affect what I'm doing or want to do with my ranged Hunter, losing me more valuable DPS as I manouvre back behind a target.

Part of my problem is that I'm a purest also, I don't use addons - I challenge all players to try this - disable your addons and see how well you do! I guarantee it will be an experience. At first not knowing your DPS and not knowing how your DPS compares with everyone else will challenge you mentally - but then you'll soon see the game isn't about knowing who is at the Top of the DPS list - it's about the thrill of being part of a team that coordinates everything, and having faith in everyoine else - just seeing their blades flashing, lightning being projected from their hands and chasing down errant mobs that are careering into more mobs or trying to take down your healer, who you'll try and protect at any cost, because that's what a team player does to get the party through alive without worrying about being top of the DPS-o-meter.

The other part of my problem is that I'm really only a part time player and at the top end things cost (gems , enchants, etc) and I don't have the time to get farm the gold to get the better gear and I'm rarely on for more than an hour so don't get the chance to do 10-man's which take 1/2 an hour to get started! so I rarely have the opportunity to get better gear to help my DPS. ... and if you're not a regular player committed to Raids then getting guild help for the hour you are actually on is next to impossible!! So I'm really stuck in a rut at the moment, with little chance of getting my DPS better as far as my Rogue is concerned - and I see the same thing happening with my Hunter when she reaches 80

So for the next month I challenge you to disable Recount and GearScore and those addons that tell you stuff in bright colours and maybe even loud voices, experience the game as maybe others do (I'm not even sure WoW would run on my Laptop with half a dozen addons running at the samw time) and maybe in it's most pure form, congratulate everyone for surviving a tricky fight rather than surviving a basic fight and then complaining that someone has low DPS. Just try it, and good luck to all.

[swollenpickles]

Tanks do tend to be higher on the DPS charts becasue they typically have a 1 or 2 GCDs of 'extra' damage and this is amplified by pally tanks - so part of the DPS discrepency is the fact you're a pally ;-)

Yeah I understand that when tanking, particularly trash, measuring my dps isn't a great thing to do, but it's about the only point of comparison I can make. When I first hit 80 and didn't have enough tank gear to hit the defense cap I ran randoms for a while as 'ret' in a mix of blue dps gear and whatever purple tank gear I had. Initially I felt a little bad because (a) I really hadn't made an effort to gear DPS and (b) I didn't think my DPS would be the same as a 'real'/dedicated dps. Even then though I was pulling 2K+ for the run, including bosses, which is why I get frustrated when I see a rogue or hunter in relatively decent gear (avg ilvl219 for example) pulling sub-1k for the whole run. If I can pull 2k dps in crappy, non-itemised gear by mashing my face on the keyboard, imho someone in decent gear should be able to do 2k minimum. How can a 4.2k gear score rogue pull 600 dps? In my mind you really need to put a lot of effort in to do that little? Even just running auto attacks it should be higher than that surely?

[Petninja]

Yeah I understand that when tanking, particularly trash, measuring my dps isn't a great thing to do, but it's about the only point of comparison I can make. When I first hit 80 and didn't have enough tank gear to hit the defense cap I ran randoms for a while as 'ret' in a mix of blue dps gear and whatever purple tank gear I had. Initially I felt a little bad because (a) I really hadn't made an effort to gear DPS and (b) I didn't think my DPS would be the same as a 'real'/dedicated dps. Even then though I was pulling 2K+ for the run, including bosses, which is why I get frustrated when I see a rogue or hunter in relatively decent gear (avg ilvl219 for example) pulling sub-1k for the whole run. If I can pull 2k dps in crappy, non-itemised gear by mashing my face on the keyboard, imho someone in decent gear should be able to do 2k minimum. How can a 4.2k gear score rogue pull 600 dps? In my mind you really need to put a lot of effort in to do that little? Even just running auto attacks it should be higher than that surely?

Baddies will be baddies? Maybe he just doesn't care. He's probably sick of heroics so he's playing Halo or something and just moving around with you guys hoping you don't notice how bad he doing.

[swollenpickles]

Part of my problem is that I'm a purest also, I don't use addons - I challenge all players to try this - disable your addons and see how well you do! I guarantee it will be an experience. At first not knowing your DPS and not knowing how your DPS compares with everyone else will challenge you mentally - but then you'll soon see the game isn't about knowing who is at the Top of the DPS list - it's about the thrill of being part of a team that coordinates everything, and having faith in everyoine else - just seeing their blades flashing, lightning being projected from their hands and chasing down errant mobs that are careering into more mobs or trying to take down your healer, who you'll try and protect at any cost, because that's what a team player does to get the party through alive without worrying about being top of the DPS-o-meter.

So for the next month I challenge you to disable Recount and GearScore and those addons that tell you stuff in bright colours and maybe even loud voices, experience the game as maybe others do (I'm not even sure WoW would run on my Laptop with half a dozen addons running at the samw time) and maybe in it's most pure form, congratulate everyone for surviving a tricky fight rather than surviving a basic fight and then complaining that someone has low DPS. Just try it, and good luck to all.

No offense, but on the runs I'm talking about I didn't need recount or gearscore (I actually dislike how people use GS for the record) to tell that these guys were performing way below where they should have - it was blatantly obvious in how long it was taking the mobs to die. The players I'm whinging about (yes - I realise I'm whinging ) are the ones that put out very sub-par dps while contributing nothing at all to the group. If a rogue is pulling 2k dps but throwing in stuns and interrupts that'd be fine, but pulling sub 1k dps without throwing in stuns or interrupts is just terrible.

It's good that you mentioned stuns/interrupts because I had another run in ToC. The first three bosses included the shaman that heals. I mark the targets, shaman with the skull. We charge in, I'm tanking away, notice that I'm the only one targeting the skull. DPS are target a combo of the two others. Heals is telling dps to get on the skull. They don't. This goes on for a while. The shaman throws up heals, it's dragging on. Heals is yelling at the rogue to kick the shaman, but apparently he's too busy throwing out his 800dps to add a kick in every no and then. Bosses eventually die, no thanks to dps, and I'm wondering what the record is for longest battle. The Argent Confessor Paletress, DPS blaze away (that's sarcasm) until she calls up the nightmare. Guess who the dps target once the nightmare is up? That's right, they continue to focus on Paletress. By this point heals is sounding a little aggravated (probably due to having to heal up the three tards because they are taking back some of the damage they are doing due to Paletress's shield. All up, this was probably the most bizarre/surreal dungeon run I've had. How these people had leveled to 80 and picked up respectable gear is beyond me.

My laptop is not high end or anything either so I'm not unfamiliar with dodgy fps or latency. And while they can contribute to poor performance, my good will in that area only extends so far.

[Astameth]

I for my part am playing a Protwarrior. As I join rnd-HCs ( I rarely do these days because I do need neither heirloom nor any kind of emblems ) I see low-DPS players either. Thus I wear my tank-1h, shield and my tanktrinkets. Besides those 4 items I wear my fury-eq.
Surely - I can be critted. I do have 34k instead of 50k hitpoints. But while tanking mobgroups my DPS raises up to 10k ( I keep protspecc, Thunderclap + Shockwave + Cleaving, as I put a second Thunderclap a group usually is dead ).
I know of many casters whom just can't get their DPS on trash since they are dead far too fast ( Arcane Mages for example ).
Though if I see some that do less than 2k ( or 3-4k in the newer HCs ) I just PM them with a few hints. Well - I guess thats a bonus for me, since I know many(/most) people do not know how to play every class. I'm an allrounder.
But back to my point: As you are a good tank and as you got a good healer, just switch some of your Tank-items to DD-items.
(Left aside that I do not get any rage in HCs while I am wearing my tankgear....)

[Waal]

@Balthazaar: It's a valid point to consider new people and default UI. But I first broke 2k dps as a Survival hunter when I reached level 73. And I wasn't trying very hard. And it didn't include my pet's damage. The point is, an 80 who isn't doing 2k on an average (non-gimmick, didn't get slept for half the fight, etc.) boss means they probably aren't even trying. That's the part that is unacceptable, not the raw number.

[Petninja]

Part of my problem is that I'm a purest also, I don't use addons - I challenge all players to try this - disable your addons and see how well you do! I guarantee it will be an experience. At first not knowing your DPS and not knowing how your DPS compares with everyone else will challenge you mentally - but then you'll soon see the game isn't about knowing who is at the Top of the DPS list - it's about the thrill of being part of a team that coordinates everything, and having faith in everyoine else - just seeing their blades flashing, lightning being projected from their hands and chasing down errant mobs that are careering into more mobs or trying to take down your healer, who you'll try and protect at any cost, because that's what a team player does to get the party through alive without worrying about being top of the DPS-o-meter.

I'm not sure why you'd want to do that, honestly. The game was designed with modding in mind, so really all you're doing is ignoring a key part of the interface. It'd be kind of like refusing to adjust the seat in your car because you want to drive it the way it arrived at the dealership... like it's meant to be.

[Astameth]

I personally do use few addons - and I do not have any problems as I disable them I learned tanking in good old times. Back, when there weren't even bossmods. I remember sitting in front of my screen (I was MT/Raidleader/Co-Raidleader) with a stopwatch on my table. I was stance-dancing to prevent getting feared (and hell yes, I was one of the few whom mastered the stancedance, believe it or not ). Today, whether I am tanking or DPS-ing as fury, I could disable my addons any time. Left aside, that Blizzard kinda included bossmods in WoW themselves ( e.q.: Twilight Cutter ).
Skada <--- Well, one has to know :P Though I am usually looking at the healers and received damage.

Power Auras (only used for slam), bossmods (mentioned before), Xloot (Nothing to say about this one), Atlasloot (less surfing while raiding), SCT (For the looks), XPerl (For the looks)
These addons are only to allow me to be more braindead while tanking and/or give me different looks in WoW (: Everything that these addons provide me ( except the looks ) are easily to accomplish without using them.

While playing with those, I do not use any macros though. I do not put my Heroic Strike with other attacks into a macro.

Due to knowledge with my class I do have my DPS and am a good tank

[swollenpickles]

But back to my point: As you are a good tank and as you got a good healer, just switch some of your Tank-items to DD-items.
(Left aside that I do not get any rage in HCs while I am wearing my tankgear....)

I've thought about that, but my off spec is Holy so I don't really have any DPS tuned gear anymore. I am thinking of dropping holy for a while though so maybe I'll try picking up some dps stuff again. On the one hand I think upping my personal dps might be ok, but on the other hand I feel like I'd only be compensating for someone elses 'badness'. I kind of feel like I'm doing my job, I'm holding aggro, nothing is mashing the healer, I'm not going afk for extended periods without saying anything.

I don't mind helping freshly dinged newbies through a dungeon, I'll do that with no reservation. I'd much rather carry a new guy through - so long as he/she is having a go - rather than carry someone else that has the tools to do better but either is incompetent or can't be bothered.

[Astameth]

Well, as ICC 25 HM equipped protwarrior I just need to uneq. part of my tankgear or switch it to offgear - otherwise I won't gain any rage at all...
You don't even need to ditch your holyspecc, just need some DPS-gear in HCs ( I personally started needing secgear equipment as my maingear equipment got continuesly needed by DDs... ).
Newbies are welcome - Noobs may get lost (:
I am used to be #1 DD in HCs as a tank ( most times #2 or #3 while fighting a boss, but trash and overall #1 ). See it this way: You get through faster (: Some days ago I joined a rnd-HC with one of my guild's healers (Paladin) - He kept wearing Retri-gear and was using his retri-specc either

[Kahmal]

Get a class that can tank and then deck im out in DPS gear, then DPS tank instances in 277 gear, DPS will never be an issue trust me . Then you can cry about the DPS gettin out DPS'd by the "tank"

[Astameth]

Damage per second getting out damage per second dealed by the tank?
Not truly trying to be sarcastic, but as English is not my native language I seem to have problems following your text structure ^^
I do not tank due to DPS, but still due to my tanking skills ( I continue using protspecc as said before ) - just that those just deal twice/triple damage due to Furygear. It's common sense that caster can't even get close to that DPS while fighting mobgroups.
Back to the topic - It's not about that the tank just makes more damage than the DD while using DD-gear, but about the DD's doing way too few DPS without relatation to the tank's gear. I Just went to that part to provide a way to compensate for such.