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Thread: Petrified Scale Heroic vs Skeleton Key Comparison!

  1. #1

    Petrified Scale Heroic vs Skeleton Key Comparison!

    First of all, its been a while since I've posted, but I'm alive!

    So I did some calcs here regarding the Petrified Twilight Scale (heroic).

    If we look at armor vs stam, armor is around 11-14 per 1 stam in terms of effective health on pure physical fights. If we use a median value of 12.5 we can say that this trinket gives around ~2060.8 stamina:

    2576a/12.5aps = 206.08s

    206.08s * 10 = 2060.8 health.

    Comparing this to the only other real trinket being used in that slot (Skeleton Key - I saw this in terms of LK cooldowns for Reapers, Satrinas is another thread!), you are losing ~21.92 stam. However, you have to take into consideration that at this gear level, raid buffed, this trinket will bring you to about the armor cap. In my full physical mitigation set it puts me at 40k armor UNBUFFED. In my regular gear unbuffed, around 36k. That is roughly a 70.23% reduction in physical damage in my normal gear alone!

    Now to look at the proc compared to the Key's absorb.

    We'll use my stats as a base:

    29.20% D
    21.90 P
    19.13 B - Ab 1803 per

    The Key, if used on CD, absorbs 6400 damage. 2 minute CD.

    Scale, if you DIP below 35%, you gain 828 dodge rating. 45 second internal CD.

    So, in my gearsetup, if I dip below 35% I gain 10.28% dodge.

    This will make my avoidance a cumulative 61.1%. Factoring in block, defense and parry: 90.43% unhittable, compared to my normal setup of 80.43%

    So on proc, an 83 boss has a 9.57% chance on hitting me, and if he does hit me, I will mitigate 72.7% of it unblocked. 72.7% - 1808 if blocked.



    SO:

    If we use unbuffed numbers, and my health of 51, 506:

    So lets say a boss hits me for more than 35% every time (lets do 36% for the sake of simplicity): 32,963

    Over the course of a 5 minute fight (300 seconds) if you were getting hit roughly once per second and the trinket can only proc every 45 seconds, it will proc 6.67 times, so lets just say 7 for 10 seconds. So it will have a total uptime of 70 seconds out of 300.

    If the boss hit you EVERY time, no avoidances, he would do 9888900 damage.

    That is a 23.3% uptime on the trinket. So for 23.3% of the fight, you will be near unhittable, use shield block at the same time and you will be completely unhittable. If the boss does not hit you during this time you will avoid 230413.7 damage. In the event you are hit, you will take 9813 less damage, unblocked.

    So, worst case scenario, with this trinket equipped, and not avoiding anything, you will take 9813 less damage 23% of the time.

    Lets compare this to the key:

    6400 damage every 2 minutes. In a 5 min fight this is only useable twice. This would absorb 12800 damage total over the fight. But, you are only 80.43% unhittable.

    Conclusion:

    For purely physical based encounters, the Scale wins, being 90-100% unhittable, while worst case scenario still absorbing 9813 damage less for 69 seconds of the fight.

    The Key is still great for when cooldowns are on a set rotation and magical damage is involved.


    Thoughts? Concerns?

    I think its a cool trinket to use, especially on LK H tanking (not adds), and other physical encounters. It's late, so if I fucked up my math or it doesn't make sense I'd love to know!
    Last edited by Raij; 08-20-2010 at 07:43 AM.

  2. #2
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    ICC buffs and debuffs not considered?

    Regardless, you fall into the usual pitfall. A trinket on a random or semi-random proc isn't reliable to be active when you most need it. This trinket does a halfway decent job, but I still don't really like the proc. It can still be leapfrogged, and it may not do a damn thing. (Once you get hit to under 35%, your biggest worry is that next hit - avoidance does nothing reliable there.)

    In your assumptions, you have a boss fight with a boss swinging at 1 second speed, hitting you to under 35% every blow. That boss will kill you, and this trinket will not make a difference.

    I don't know where you get your avoidance values from, but I'm not sure if this is talking as a paladin or warrior. A warrior shouldn't be able to have 30% block chance in reasonable gear, and a paladin doesn't have shield block. You also forgot to add the chance to be missed to your avoidance numbers, it's not just parry and dodge.

    For some reason you seem to think that unhittable means that a boss can't hit you. This is not the case. Unhittable means there will be no normal hits on the combat table. Blocks are still hits, and are definatly not within the 9.7% chance to be hit you used. (Again, where did this number come from?)
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  3. #3
    This is what I get for writing at 5am. Regardless, I used my unhittable macro, slotting in the new dodge number that this trinket uses. Also, yes, I didn't do the ICC debuff, which was a large lapse, and which makes this severely less cool than I initially thought. To calculate unhittable I used:

    /run local b,d,p,r,a=GetBlockChance(),GetDodgeChance(),GetPar ryChance(),GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)
    a=1/(.0625+.956/(r/122.9625))
    ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("Unhittable: %.2f%% Avoidance: %.2f%%
    Defense %+.0f rating",b+d+p+5+a,d+p+5+a,r-689))

    Slotting in my numbers for the chances, and my dodge with the trinket procced.

    The armor alone however seems to be worth wearing for physical fights, which was mainly my point, the debuff just kind of makes it cool, but maybe not as useful? I really wish the proc wasn't a below 35% thing, and an on hit thing, but still....avoidance in my eyes isn't great, and with the ICC debuff factored in, way less cool.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raij View Post
    The armor alone however seems to be worth wearing for physical fights, which was mainly my point...
    It's a point that got lost in you talking about the proc.

    It's awesome for physical fights for just the armor, yes. The proc is nice, but as all avoidance and all procs it can't be relied upon so it shouldn't be counted on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  5. #5
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    2576a/12.5aps = 206.08s

    206.08s * 10 = 2060.8 effective health.
    Ummm..... what?

    The armor is roughly equivalent to 2061 health, yes.... but not really 'effective health'. To calculate that, you would have to calculate your health with the armor reduction before and after equipping the scale.

    Also, the rough 206 stam is less than the Corroded Skeleton Key, Heroic Satrina's/Jugg's, and Sindra's trinkets. The difference here is damage you don't take vs. damage you do take.

    I'm not downplaying the trinket, it is decent.... but there are still better trinkets, one being Heroic Satrina's/Jugg's as the 5.1k hp on use is still one of the best procs in the game.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  6. #6
    Haha, that is a typo, I meant health. Armor capping myself on physical fights is a pretty nice thing to be able to do however, thoughts again? I think its been proven it isn't really the best trinket for most fights, but situationally I think it really could have uses. I really don't like avoidance gearing, but there isn't a better armor trinket in game currently.
    Last edited by Raij; 08-20-2010 at 07:47 AM.

  7. #7
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    Situationally I think it is a great trinket. The 733 dodge on the reg version is substantial... though it'd be nicer if it had a flat percentage... >.> <.<

    I think on farm content for physical fights, this trinket would beat out the UO, but for pushing new content with physical damage, I'd probably want the UO instead or H Satrina's/Jugg's.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  8. #8
    Agreed.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    Situationally I think it is a great trinket. The 733 dodge on the reg version is substantial... though it'd be nicer if it had a flat percentage... >.> <.<

    I think on farm content for physical fights, this trinket would beat out the UO, but for pushing new content with physical damage, I'd probably want the UO instead or H Satrina's/Jugg's.
    Wouldn't it depend on the probability of X melee hits landing in 10 seconds to grow/keep UO up? In fights where there are more rapid swings I would think even on farm UO would > Pet-Scale as long as you're sure you'll receive and maintain maybe 3 stacks at a minimum (or gain them quickly)
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  10. #10
    I have tried UO, the stacks seem very unreliable, I was never a fan of it tbh.

  11. #11
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    The stacks benefit more from being hit rapidly, and is underwhelming. If I had another pure stamina trinket to use, I'd use it, but the UO isn't totally bad(normal mode, alas, i do not have the heroic version).

  12. #12
    In all honesty, H LK was doable with Sindra/Skele Key, using Skele key as one of my CDs (in conjunction with another small CD) for reaper. I missed not having a Satrina's but the damned thing has never dropped more than twice. I wouldn't use or dream of using the Scale to soak reaper as a CD, as EH is heads above Dodge. However on other fights I can see it being cool, and on Halion himself, where physical damage on movement is really the kicker, it might be useful (heroic).
    Last edited by Raij; 08-20-2010 at 08:19 AM.

  13. #13
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    Hmm... I guess I've had better luck than average with UO then. When tanking Saurfang, Fester, PP during P3, Valanar, and BQL I've noticed my max health steadly rise by almost the full amount and stay there. It drops off during some of the effects, but rises back up.

    It's not great for every fight (Morrowagar, LDW, Rot, I don't think PP too much, VDW) it isn't as good, but for the fights where you get hit often, my HP has looked better most of the fight than when it started.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  14. #14
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    even on farm UO would > Pet-Scale as long as you're sure you'll receive and maintain maybe 3 stacks at a minimum (or gain them quickly)
    On farm I'd rather just not take the damage if possible, and the chance to avoid seems better. Keep in mind, this is farm content where you don't have the same issues you did when pushing new content. Making life easier for the healers is always a bonus, and you shouldn't really 'need' the extra health off the UO if you are farming the content.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  15. #15
    Exactly, although we farm H LK, and I wouldn't use it there tbh, I need my cooldowns! :P

  16. #16
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    Exactly, although we farm H LK, and I wouldn't use it there tbh, I need my cooldowns! :P
    This is true, but H LK is a weird fight... Do you gear for stam or armor? Arguments can be made for both, making it a very strange situation. One thing I have heard constantly though is just the fact that you need raw health to survive it, so most gear for stam.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
    http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...ellvarsig3.jpg

  17. #17
    Depends on your role. I use more armor for LK tanking, whereas if I am on the adds and spirit soaking I use my normal set with max stam. Armor mitigates LK's massive hits, making it easier to survive the reaper haste. The fight is just essentially very tight cooldown rotation, precise movement, and very tight tank swaps. That said, its the craziest fight I've ever tanked and I've tanked em all haha.

    Edit, don't forget your expertise for stunning enraged Shamblers and stunning your Valk!

    Also, not many guilds use warriors, we have and do use 2. Vigilance the tank on LK for Ghoul tanking, unlimited taunts = you don't need tricks for ghouls. Works the same for valks, taunt them as they go up. We also use my stun on one + my shockwave for the 2nd aoe stun.

    In terms of your raw health argument, this is true. To survive reapers you need to use your CDs in an intelligent way. The way I do it is: First reaper (timer is usually wrong), so I use Last Stand, so it is up later when I have alot of Valks on me. 2nd Reaper we are usually stationary, and thus I use a Sindra/Skele Key, Enraged Regen combo, its a lesser CD but because healers aren't moving it is enough.

    3rd Reaper we are moving again, and I use SW to mitigate that extra movement + defile.

    4th you can use Sindra's again + Bloodrage 4 piece, and in a bind Pain Suppression.

    That just repeats.

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    Last edited by Raij; 08-20-2010 at 08:57 AM.

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