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Thread: 10N Sid - Review Logs, anything stand out? Or is it just raid awareness?

  1. #1
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    10N Sid - Review Logs, anything stand out? Or is it just raid awareness?

    1st, we didn't have a great amount of DPS, we were trying to 2 heal it which would get us into trouble in P2 when a healer was blocked. With 3 healers we probably couldn't beat the enrage timer anyway.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2yfncj2mxtv1cdd1/

    What I'd love help on is:

    A) A guide to learning to understand the almost too much info in WoL
    B) A review of my performance (Loganisis, armory below); and
    C) If anything shows up in P2 that stands out that we as a raid could do better.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...r&cn=Loganisis

    Please, for gearing, I just need emblems, drops are kinda limited since I can't get past Rot in 25m pug and 10m. So gearing is just taking time (and we're extending our 10m to maximize our time on Sid and then LK).

    But suggestions on rotation, raid-wide suggestions, anything in general (just not gear, I know I'm missing some emblem gear, it has to do with how much time I've missed for various things and Fury was, until recently my off-raid spec) would be VERY much appriciated.

    Just at a loss for reading WoL well. Thanks!
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  2. #2
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    P.S. For P2, I was on Tomb duty with a rogue to start with and then a Mage as I was the only melee after our rogue left.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  3. #3
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    Yeah it's really easy to get information overload from WoL. I find it much easier to go into these looking for something specific ("we wiped on LDW HC a lot, were people interrupting frostbolts? Did we take too much damage from spirits?") rather than going in and just "analysing".

    That said, this is how I'd digest it..

    Raidwide info

    - I always go to deaths overview first. That way you can see if people are dying to things they really shouldn't be. e.g., habbysr died twice to Blistering Cold - something to watch out for in future..

    - Then you can pick a try and work out "why did we wipe?" (if it wasn't already obvious). Say try 8 - you lost one of your tanks to normal boss damage at 22:42:15. It looks like healing was a problem, but why? Go to the healing done panel..

    - You can see a big drop off in healing done just before the tank death (marked by the red line). The druid went to near zero so it looks like he got tombed (I'm assuming you're in P3 by now), but the problem is that both the pally and priest had a big dropoff in healing done, and that is almost certainly what caused the tank death.

    So from looking at the log, it looks like
    - your druid got ice blocked
    - both your remaining healers tried to get behind it to clear their stacks
    - as a result, noone was healing the tank and he died

    If this was indeed the case, you could try to fix it by saying "Pally clears his stacks when the tomb is on the left, druid/priest clear them when the tomb is on the right". This ensures you have a healer out for the tank at all times.

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    Mechanically we had a big problems with the tombs in P2 (or do you count air phase as P2?). After our first couple of attempts we always had everyone up @35% but the raid wiped shortly after that.

    We were trying the left/right tomb idea, with everyone going behind a tomb only when they got to 4 stacks, but it wasn't working well.

    So WoL doesn't give you answers so much as it gives you information you need to connect back to the mechanics. Okay, that's good to know, I guess I was almost expecting something a little more 'up front'.

    Does Loganisis' damage parse look fairly good in terms damage by talent and times abilities were used? I know I need to work on my placement some (our fail counter put me way too high on tail stomps even though those were pretty much irrlevent damage), so I know I have to work on my placement some.

    Thanks for the info!
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    The things i want to look at in those logs require me to dig way deeper than i have time for, so i'm going to ask them here (i'm looking at your longest try when i do go into logs):

    1. On P2, who is dps'ing the frost tombs? I strongly suggest your rogue go on tomb duty, and pretty much nothing else. He will be stacking up chilled to the bone too fast to be of any use on the boss. Also, having a single person on tombs will make the breaking of them much more controlled (we've had tanks not being able to reset because tombs got broken too fast till we went to this tactic). Btw, he really needs to pick up his play. 50% SnD uptime & zero eviscerates?

    2. I'm guessing your healers are concentrating too much on clearing their stacks & less on keeping tanks alive (pure speculation on my part but this has been the prime reason of failures on sindi on guild & pug runs, normal & heroic). On normal mode, through careful coordination, your healers should always have somebody out & healing. Tricks like hiding behind a block so that they LoS the boss but not the tank are also viable strategies that need practice to pull off. Good communication between healers is key to this fight.

    3. Why get tailstomped? stand at her back feet & you should be fine.

    4. Personal advice for you: Find some other place to get 12 hitrating & put tuskarrs on your boots. That runspeed is a godsend for fights like these and usually gives a good dps increase on high mobility fights. Also, watch your chilled to the bone debuff especially on p2. Damage taken from that seemed a tad high. Your damage taken is close to the OT.

    5. DPS problem: you're too scared of Backlash. That's the damage component to Unchained Magic that casters get. Especially your mage, he just stops dpsing as soon as he gets it. Until P2, you can go up to 8 stacks of Unchained Magic, up to 4 i think on P2 (could be less for casters, not sure). A little more bravery will net you more heals & more dps.

    6. Suicide healing: This is a little fancy trick that your healers can use if they feel they're in a tight spot. Basically they continue spamming heals even though they have unchained magic. It wont explode till 5 secs after casting stop, so if they never stop, it'll basically never explode. In reality, their casting will get interrupted, either through going oom or by being pulled in with blistering cold. At which time their many stacks will explode with the many stacks of mystic buffet they had. Plus, mystic buffet will be increasing the damage they take from frost aura ticks, so this is basically a last ditch effort if you're into the last percentages - it's not a viable healing strategy but it did get us a few kills, including our heroic kill.

    If you want to dig a little yourself, here's our log. It's a heroic mode kill, our first one. On heroic, people with unchained magic explode with a 20 yard aoe damage, instead of just yourself, everything hits a lot harder, otherwise basically the same fight.: (warning! it's about to expire)
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f...?s=1416&e=1996

  6. #6
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    @Fledern - Thanks!

    1a. The rogue and I were on tomb duty in P2 until he had to leave (last 3 or 4 runs were without her I think). However we have a new strat we're going to try on the next attempt from a guildy with a friend in the top guild on the server - Basically stack on me during P2 with the person who gets tombed running out, then at 3 seconds, everyone nukes the tomb down. We had a little issue with a at least one of our DPS being far too low, so with that replaced while in progression we shouldn't have to worry about the enrage like we were so going slower through P2 should work (hoping!).

    1b. Any suggestions for rogues in high-movement fights?

    2. The problem was we had a couple of people who didn't pay attention to incoming frost tombs as much as they should have and we had healers inadvertently tombed several times, or didn't get tombs down fast enough. Our healers know their job, that's probably the strongest point of the raid. It's the rest of use that need to pick it up.

    3. Tailstopped - yeah. Really started DPSing raids for the first time in... 8 months? a couple weeks ago, DPS positioning is something I'm trying to learn (since I was fail DPS when I was DPS-ing before). I try to stand at her back left leg (we have her pointed to the left), so I think the issue is I'm too close to her and I need to back up some. Something closer to max-hit box range. I need to work on this for sure.

    4a. I need more ArP so I can gem more hit XD I'm getting closer, at 1416 with food, so a little more and I can start putting in a few more hit gems and re-gemming the feet. I had been using the 32 AP enchant, I'll look into Tusker's as soon as I feel comfortable. I hadn't even thought of that. This fight wasn't too bad, but VDW the speed would be very useful for the adds (Here I was always furtherest from the pulse damage, usually taking 2-3k damage from it and intercept I was back in the fight).

    4b. Chilled to the bone: I know this was high before 35% because our healers weren't being taxed keeping the tank up and I trusted them to keep me up. Otherwise I'd have to stop DPS-ing quite often. If I saw a I was at 5 stacks with a pulse/air phase too far away, I would, but normally 5 or 6 stacks isn't a problem in P2. In P2 I didn't notice my stacks up that high, I'll keep a better eye for them. Since I was on tomb duty, I was usually behind a tomb and thought I saw them fall off a lot.

    5. I'll talk to our casters about this. Thanks!

    6. If only we could get that far XD We usually wiped in the 20-28% range. Got her down to 9% once. I'll let them know that they are to die in the line of duty though ;D

    Thank you for the suggestions. I know its seems like I'm brushing a few of them off, but I am looking at them (maybe switching the helm enchant back to the hit enchant and putting tusker's on the boots...)
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  7. #7
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    Oh and don't be so afraid of the enrage timer, if you're learning Sindy your no 1 priority is keep everyone alive during P3 (I'm referring to the phase with Mystic Buffet). Completely ignore the enrage.

    Once everyone has the hang of staying alive, clearing their stacks at the right time, keeping tanks up, not getting caught out by Blistering Cold, dpsing tombs down at the right speed, there are only 2 possible outcomes.

    1) You down her, celebrate, move on, or
    2) You hit the enrage timer and wipe.

    If 1 then congrats, and you're done. If 2 then you're now at a stage where everyone knows the fight and literally the only thing you need to do is squeeze out more DPS. Don't try to 2 heal this, it's not necessary and hard to do with Tombs and Unchained.

    TBH until everyone knows the mechanics of the fight and stays alive throughout all of P3, it's not even worth looking at minor DPS things like "did you pop CDs at the right times".

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmfg View Post
    TBH until everyone knows the mechanics of the fight and stays alive throughout all of P3, it's not even worth looking at minor DPS things like "did you pop CDs at the right times".
    We just recruited our 2nd reliable tank so I've been freed for the first time in nearly a year to DPS raids. I want to make sure I'm in line with that I should be doing. Positioning is something I'm working on. Managing debuffs and the like too. So that request is more of a personal appeal for help, not so much a fight-specific appeal for help.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    OK looked over the logs a bit more, yes your chilled stacks are ok, so it is as well with most people.

    Overall i'd say dmfg is right, 2healing this is unnecessarily making it tough for your healers and subjecting your kill to a ton of rng. I see the pally reach 10 stacks of mystic buffet, trying to keep people alive.

    I'm also noticing that you're having trouble keeping your offtank alive after a high frost damage attack (frost breath or blistering cold). The healers cant cope with the spike. I can point three reasons for that: 1) 2-healing it is hard, 2) He's not running out of blistering cold & is taking unnecessary damage, 3) he needs more frost resist. I'd suggest boots & belts, maybe a frost resist flask.

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    I'll bring that up. We've talked about the flasks, my understanding is you need 240 resistance to guarantee any resistance?

    Ideally we'd be running 3 healers, Druid, Disc, and Pally. But there was no way we would beat the enrage and our goal is to extend the lockout until we down LK, just get it over with. So we knew P3 needed 3 healers and we knew that last night if we 3 healed then we would not beat the enrage. So it was an ugly catch 22. We're going to be far more mercenary with our invites on our next attempt to make sure we have the DPS with 3 heals to beat the enrage and then, as dmfg suggest, work on the mechanics until we get it including the LoS issue for heals.

    In the fights I did notice a tank go down in P3, but usually not until everything had started to go clusterfrack.

    On the LoS issue, do you have your tanks flip her around as needed to make sure that they are always near max-hit range so it's easier for the heals to LoS, or is it LoS from her hit box, not her body, so if you're hidden from teh hit box but can see her head, you're still good to?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  11. #11
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    Dps is kinda' low, about half of what I usually see on sindy. You are basically, trying for a 7 man kill.

    First order of business: build your raid. Start on your dps. Since you hit the enrage timer, you seem to not have issues with healing or tanking...that leaves...

    If i were you, i'd hold a dps training session by the training dummy. Get your tank, and all the dps available from guild. Buff up. Smack the bejeebus out of the boss level dummy (tank will also attack and use it's rotation, and will (preferably) keep up a armor debuff on the dummy).
    Keep the top 5 dps for that raid. If there are dps under 5k over 3 or so minutes (static, ideal fight, a dps in raid conditions should be able to do this even with no icc buff), get some pugs to help and repeat the checking process

    Better yet, form your raid, then announce in
    Code:
    /2  ICC 10 Guild run need some DPS, no gearscore required, know the Fights, 
    will Raid the training dummy to check the dps (top 5 dps will remain. Starting ICC in 20 minutes)
    .

    Benefits: rewards good char/spec knowledge, consumable use, tracks the improvement of the gear (i.e. including other gearing up sources out there). Provides a incentive for improving (nothin' kills a raid faster than a guaranteed raid spot cuz of "the RL is a frind of mine, and the main tank will /gquit if i don't get to come to icc! and we'r a social guild and i'm friendly" "but what do you mean 3k dps is not enough for icc?")

    Cons: have to do it: cba syndrome, but in my opinion, if you can't get this event up and running, you have bigger issues at hand.


    For the record, my guild did this on 2 occasions when first assembling 25 mans ICC and when starting the second 10 man ICC team. There were some tears after, but the raids that came were smooth.
    Last edited by Timberton; 08-18-2010 at 05:50 AM.

  12. #12
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    Here are the most common reasons why people fail on Sindragosa:

    1. People don't watch their stacks and just go balls to the walls on the boss and let the healers keep them alive. The tanks are going to be taking a ton of damage. The healers cannot keep the raid and the tanks up if the raid is being stupid. If your healers are getting overwhelmed, your raid is being stupid. No simpler way to put that.

    2. Ice Tombs are everyones' responsibility. You drop your stacks by LOSing the boss behind them, it makes sense to hit them while you are there. You don't need to go balls to the walls on them, a couple of hits will break them. The idea is to actually leave them up a little bit so that your raid can drop their stacks.

    3. Raid Popsicles. Improper placement of the Ice Tombs results in half the raid getting entombed. That is a placement and awareness problem. If this is happening, people don't understand the fight's flow yet.

    With the 30% buff in place, there is no reason why any raid can't down Sindragosa before the enrage timer. In fact, you will likely kill yourself before you even hit it if you are ignoring the mechanics of the fight. The end of the fight is the most hectic because people see the low health points on the boss and assume that they can just zerg their way to the end of it. This just triples the amount of raid damage that is incoming and ultimately overwhelms the healers.

    Sindragosa is all about managing your stacks. If there wasn't such a mechanic in place, she would be a simple Patchwerk tank and spank.

  13. #13
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    ^^

    I'd just like to add, that a blue hunter's mark (the frost tomb mark) in a blue room with blue ice tombs, really doesn't stand out. I find a lot of people miss it even though they have DBM because "I play with my volume turned off".

    /facepalm

    Make sure everyone is actively trying to notice when they have their mark, is making sure they have more than one way to notice, and not relying on someone else to tell them. The smoothest raids are the ones where people know how to look after themselves, within the context of the strategy you're using. And sindy is more a coordination fight than a DPS race, especially with that 30% buff.

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    From the analysis above, it sounds like part of our DPS issue is debuff issues (Unchanined magic) and our rogue was frustrated with the movement. For melee classes, Tuskers for feet, are there other things that can be done to minimize time not spent on the boss?

    For Fury I had a plan that seemed to work well towards the end. During Blistering Colds I'd still be going through my rotation even as I was turning away in mid-air, which usually left me with 1 more hit (more if I WW was just off CD because of its larger range) then as soon as the cold hit, I would turn and intercept. It seemed like I only lost a couple of seconds of DPSing each blistering cold (basically the time from being sucked in to the time it pulsed). However others seemed to have more issues.

    Is there a good place to go to review starts, by class, to minimize down time in movement fights?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  15. #15
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    Some melee classes just don't have a lot of options to minimize movement in a fight.

    We usually keep melee on the boss, the only time they ever run out is to clear mystic buffet or to avoid the AoE.

    Another trick to minimize downtime, is when you get too many stacks of permeating chill, just spin your toon so your back is facing the boss. That stops attacks immediately without having to click off of her. When perm. chill wears off, spin back. Works best if you mouse turn.

  16. #16
    I didn't dig too deeply into the logs (I get information overload from them too >>; ), but I notice you have two warlocks. Have either of them been putting CoT (Curse of Tongues) up on Sindra to increase the cast time of Blistering Cold? That might help some slow-movers stay alive
    Last edited by Aurlana; 08-18-2010 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Smiley fail
    "Something's wrong. Murder isn't working, and that's all we're good at."

  17. #17
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    @Aurlana

    Doesn't look like it. They both look to have CotE up. It doesn't stack does, it so if we have 2 again (unlikely) we'll need to assign priorities.

    Thanks!

    @Timberton

    The goal is to make this a guild run, we weren't far and we have some options for improving if everyone shows up, plus it was our first time in the fight really (we made 1 or 2 attempts a while ago) so I think with some more fine-tuning we can do this in house.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  18. #18
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    Trying to summarize what I've heard:

    Beat raid awareness into people's skulls about tombs in <35% life phase. This seemed to us to be the biggest issue, people missed the fact they would soon be tombed and then just about everyone here commented on it.

    Backlash - in Phase 1 (35%+ health) casters don't need to worry about it until they hit 5 stacks right? Then let it fall off? Phase 2 gets more problematic with the stacking magic damage debuff, so probably only 3 stacks in that one? The hope is to keep casting until a blistering cold or air phase require stopping casting to maximize the ABC rule?

    Warlock DPS went switching to a Fel Guard as opposed to an imp (imp died) - good plan?

    Better positioning (staying closer to max hit rage to avoid tail stomps)

    Phase 2 (or 3 depending on how you look at it) - We're going to try to group up behind a melee and then as soon as someone gets the tomb, run behind it, at 3 seconds left on the debuff (maybe 5, take some playing), nuke the tomb and then go back to DPSing Sid. Risk if someone doesn't pay attention but reward in more consistent debuff removal and coordination.

    When we have overlapped classes, do a better job of making sure they are augmenting rather than stacking debuffs that dont' stack.

    We should be 3 healing it (Tree, Pally, Disc) I think, so healing shouldn't be an issue (2 healing was fine until <35% life, as noted by the fact I would get 6 or 7 stacks of the melee debuff and not worry about it)

    Continue emphasizing mouse turning (we've been doing this for the blistering cold vaccum turn and run)

    Look at maximizing frost resist on our warrior OT.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  19. #19
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    Seriously, looking at your logs, i'm still going to insist that both your dps loss and your inadequate healing is due to being too scared of unchained magic stacks. If you were doing it on heroic i'd understand because that sort of stuff becomes deadly if you misjudge it. But on normal, with the 30% buff, you can be a lot more brave with it. If you've come as far as Sindragosa, you definitely have the dps to get her down with 3 healers - it's all about making sure you have the max time-on-target.

    Resistance mechanics have changed a lot really. EJ is the best place to read up on it. Belt + boots + resist flask will turn those 30K frost breaths into nothing while not seriously hurting your tanks EH. With healers getting UM and iceblocks, you really could use the relief from turning a 30K instant into a 10K or less damage.

    Tuskarrs will allow any toon pulled in to just turn & run out normally out of range of the damage with enough time to spare to turn around & dps. While it's not a direct damage enchant i find it one of the highest efficiency enchants in the game. Those people i have convinced to try it out have converted all their characters (casters, healers, melee dps) to that enchant. Unless you have a class-specific get-out-of-there trick, i consider it a must have.

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