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Thread: tanking calculations

  1. #1
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    tanking calculations

    At the beginning of the icc patch, i started using an addon called tank points. The said addon is ment to allow someone to plug in stat additions and subtractions to reflect the resulting positive or negitive changes to other adversly effected stats.

    I started using this addon because i was really into avoidence crafting prior to the icc patch. and this saved me probily an hour of calculations a day. At the time it was always on the money. but again, i was using this for avoidence crafting. since the icc patch, obviously ehp has become the method of choice. I not being an ehp fan really didnt take the time to reasearch the machanics behind it as i should have. though im doing so now, Im finding that the results my little addon are being questioned more often then anything else. has anyone used this addon? Am I simply mis interputing the results or are they drasticly off? According to the website, the addon is up to date.

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    You told me to come to this thread for math on why 71 sb = 616 armor.

    I see no such numbers.

    Tankpoints is a bad addon.

    That is all.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  3. #3
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    a very easy way to calculate ehp is by taking hp/armor (or if it was otherway around, armor/hp). in other words, use any gear with extra armor (green armor numbers) and much stamina

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    You told me to come to this thread for math on why 71 sb = 616 armor.
    Someone doesn't quite understand mitigation and shield block mechanics.

    Tankpoints isn't a bad addon per se. It's good at what it does, which is tell you the net effect of avoidance changing on gear. The unfortunate point is that avoidance is moot at this time, and people try to use it as a "tell me what I should wear" thing.
    Got a question? Try here: Evil Empire Guides and here: Tankspot Guides and Articles Library first!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post

    "tell me what I should wear".
    Something sophisticated, yet demur; would be my vote.

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    I was thinking something in a leopard print. Too loud?
    Got a question? Try here: Evil Empire Guides and here: Tankspot Guides and Articles Library first!

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    Good call, leopard is very in these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandri View Post
    a very easy way to calculate ehp is by taking hp/armor (or if it was otherway around, armor/hp). in other words, use any gear with extra armor (green armor numbers) and much stamina
    we the point is the addon is ment to make conversions and calculate NET effects based on the stat of the gear set you upload. the avoidence aspect is very accurate. the mitigation confuses ne at times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    Someone doesn't quite understand mitigation and shield block mechanics.

    Tankpoints isn't a bad addon per se. It's good at what it does, which is tell you the net effect of avoidance changing on gear. The unfortunate point is that avoidance is moot at this time, and people try to use it as a "tell me what I should wear" thing.

    NO, ive clearly stated that that i have done very little research into armor machanics.. most of which in the last few days.

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    Hopefully, you can return to evaluating avoidance in cata, but not yet. As Lore said in his video, EHP will still be the most important stat, but avoidance will hopefully move from "Worthless and ignorable" to "Consider, but further down in priorities after EHP and Threat"

    I know Satrina is well aware of this, but for santaro's benefits, there are programs out there that perform the function "What should I wear/what's an upgrade". Most notably is Rawr as a catch all, but there are other goodies like Landsoul's for DPS warriors, Aldrianna's for rogues, and so on. The BIGGEST PROBLEM is that you need to LEARN HOW TO USE IT. It doesn't work out of the box. Anything that markets itself as a "ready to go out of the box" product, be it add-ons like Tankpoints, websites, or standalone programs, just don't work. Garbage in, garbage out.

    To effectively use things like Tankpoints, Rawr, whatever, you need to update assumptions with proven data from sources like Tankspot.com, elitistjerks.com, maintankadin.com, etc., and THEN plug in data. For example, with RAWR, if evaluating tank gear, there are 3 categories - Survival, Avoidance and Threat. To accurately assess the value of tank gear, CURRENTLY, you basically pick the items with the highest survival. Hopefully in Cata, we will be able to pick the item that has the best overall survival+avoidance, with modifications to avoidance values to correctly weight its contribution (all these programs use "weighted" stats to calculate worth of gear, but they overvalue avoidance).

    If you properly do this, you can make everybody happy. Tankpoints will correctly evaluate gear and allow you to use it making you happy. It will tell you that 71 SB < 616 Armor and therefore downgrade it, making Agg happy. And we can all gather around the campfire and sing Kumbaya. End of story.

    Because I love analogies:
    -EHP is like hard cash. If you can get hard cash, it's always the best option every time. Money talks no matter where you are.
    -Avoidance is like acquiring rare art. Although it is quite valueable on the market, you need to find the oddball situation of some rich art lover who will pay through the nose for it to see any value, and those are rare and situational occasions.
    -Agg thinks you are crazy to try and pick rare art over the equivalent in hard cash. Bill Gates or Warren Buffett may collect some rare art or other weird things along the way, but they are powerful men in America because they have lots of... hard cash...

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    If I remember correctly tankpoints has a box to input the size swings/speed you want to use to test the value of your shield block. Make sure it's not defaulted to like 10k or something low like that. It will give you an inflated number back, but it's still not going to be completely accurate.

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    -Agg thinks you are crazy to try and pick rare art over the equivalent in hard cash. Bill Gates or Warren Buffett may collect some rare art or other weird things along the way, but they are powerful men in America because they have lots of... hard cash...
    Yes, again it comes down to the fact that currently (though we may not like it) EH or 'hard cash' is the way to go.

    I also second Agg's post... there is no math here.

    2+2=4 (discuss...)
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    To build on your analogy Insahnity, EH is your salary, avoidance is your bonus.

    If you're a young, single guy with no one relying on you, it's a whole lot easier spending money you don't have and relying on the bonus to make up for your possible over-enthusiastic eyes. If you don't get the bonus (bad luck etc) it's only you that suffers and you can always run back to your family (guild) for help through the time (add a couple of friends to complete the quest).

    But when you've got a wife, kids, a mortgage, a couple of car payments, etc (a raid), if that bonus doesn't come in, everyone is SoL.

    EH is your salary, you know it's there and you know what you can do within it with a couple of credit cards (CDs) avaialble for if something bad happens that you then have to wait a while before using again. If you live within your salary and credit cards, then those bonuses only make your life that much easier.



    Avoidance isn't bad, but stacking avoidance in WotLK is like buying things expecting your bonus to come through. It. Just. Is. Not. Smart. (which, by the way, is bound to be a new raid boss in Cata ---- Ijins, who will stun players with huge piles of fools gold). The mechanics make avoidance a bonus and it looks like it may stay that way in Cata if indeed raid boss expertise is implimented... or at least in terms of boss fights (though maybe if there's more adds, one tank would be EH geared and the other avoidance geared?, more Anub from ToC 25H-ish?)

    Thats why I gear EH, to live within my means (and maximizing EH maximizes my means) and then gleefully take every bonus offered.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Because I love analogies:
    -EHP is like hard cash. If you can get hard cash, it's always the best option every time. Money talks no matter where you are.
    -Avoidance is like acquiring rare art. Although it is quite valueable on the market, you need to find the oddball situation of some rich art lover who will pay through the nose for it to see any value, and those are rare and situational occasions.
    -Agg thinks you are crazy to try and pick rare art over the equivalent in hard cash. Bill Gates or Warren Buffett may collect some rare art or other weird things along the way, but they are powerful men in America because they have lots of... hard cash...
    Except that rare art always has a market of individuals who will seek out rare art if it is, in fact, rare and on the market. Bosses who favor avoidance will not come find you if you are wearing avoidance. Do not want!

    I got to wondering people would gem avoidance if their gear didn't come with any on it (therefore itemized for stamina instead) and I basically decided the same gearing strategy exists until you reach a point where the additional incoming damage > overhealing from the previous model. Once you cross that threshold avoidance starts to look good again. I don't know that even if we were to remove all avoidance from our gear if we would even reach that threshold. Avoidance will matter again when healer mana matters again. It probably won't until then.

  15. #15
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    Avoidance will matter again when healer mana matters again.
    This is pretty much what Agg has been going on about since ICC dropped. Once healer mana is an issue, avoidance will come into play. This is what we are hoping for in Cata.
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    There are a few pieces with absolutely no avoidance. The 245 tank ring from Ony25 (my fav!), Frost resist gear, and so on come to mind readily. And yeah, they gemmed stamina, picking high defense on other pieces to stay capped.

  17. #17
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    Worst part of this thread is that the Tankpoints addon already has a built-in EHP calculator..... Way to trash an excellent addon.

    Not only in the normal Character interface but also on the tooltips for gear if you so configure it.

    Additionally Tankpoints will factor in diminishing returns on your avoidance stats so you can see the net effect it'll have with what you're currently wearing.

    You can also use the RatingBuster addon by the same author to see how a piece of gear will fare with its gem slots filled in your favorite gemming style.

    Both addons contain very detailed readme documents explaining in depth what both addons do, how they calculate stuff, how the math was derived - including shield block mechanism and how you can input your rotation into the addon to see the effect for how YOU play.

    Having a tool isnt enough, you have to also know how to use it.
    Last edited by Fledern; 08-18-2010 at 03:13 PM.

  18. #18
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    guys, I love the pro ehp attitude, but really, the only person who understood the question was petninja, and i quote :

    If I remember correctly tankpoints has a box to input the size swings/speed you want to use to test the value of your shield block. Make sure it's not defaulted to like 10k or something low like that. It will give you an inflated number back, but it's still not going to be completely accurate.


    IM NOT trying to use an addon do disprove EHP. Im trying to understand if the net effects are accurate. This addon is NOT ment to disprove or prove ANYTHING. its ment to sum the spreadsheets your refering to up to a calculater.Being as I am still learning much on the content, it will eliminate any human error. which I happen to like because I spend my entire day with my head in a spreadsheet, I dont prefer to spend more hours at home ripping appart the thousand or so spreadsheets and forums that encompus the collective tanking machanics. Like one you might use when you ballance your checkbook at home. ptentially, this is ment to include factor even the most knowladgable person may overlook.. its not ment to "tell you what gear to use" . its ment to give an accurate reflection of net stat changes

    My question is, IF the addon is ment to calculate your spreadsheet in a meat format, why would it be giving me false answers.

    for example : If i load my current gearset into the addon, and add 71 block value.... a positive reading (green) results in the armor value of 616 along with several other things which i will leave out for the intention of this post. ( if ur courious, its the net effects which occur on other stats from the prementioned increase) I can screenshot this for you is you like..

    http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-a...nk-points.aspx

    in fact, it even talks here about the swing factor. thanks ninja, Im going to check swing speed when i get home
    Last edited by praetoria; 08-18-2010 at 04:13 PM.

  19. #19
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    My guess is there is confusion over the fact that 71 block value doesn't give you 616 armor.

    I think it's saying it gives you the effect of 616 armor averaged out over the course of a fight at your current armor levels. I think that distinction needs to be made clear.

    616 armor will reduce the damage of every incoming physical attack by it's effect. Block value only reduces the physical attacks it blocks by the equivalent of 616 armor.

    And the 'armor' equivalent it gives will change based on your current armor, your block rating, and how you use SB. It's not a static effect, it's not like throwing one a piece of bonus armor which actually gives you a static amount of armor.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    My guess is there is confusion over the fact that 71 block value doesn't give you 616 armor.

    I think it's saying it gives you the effect of 616 armor averaged out over the course of a fight at your current armor levels. I think that distinction needs to be made clear.

    616 armor will reduce the damage of every incoming physical attack by it's effect. Block value only reduces the physical attacks it blocks by the equivalent of 616 armor.

    And the 'armor' equivalent it gives will change based on your current armor, your block rating, and how you use SB. It's not a static effect, it's not like throwing one a piece of bonus armor which actually gives you a static amount of armor.

    No its not ment to give a theoretical value.. I think I just have to change some of the defult values. Im almost certian after reading the above links. Actually refers it in the link above

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