Sindragosa Gear

[Martie]

My guild has 1 shotted sindy every week for about 10-12 weeks now and i have never once nor has my offtank used frost resist gear ... all you need is good fast tank switching and use your cool downs wisely ... easy as pie don't bother with FR at all

I use some frost resist gear for it, but mostly because I hate being slowed. With some bad luck, the frost breath can stack over four (happened to me once), and at that point, movement becomes a pain in the noggin.

[Raij]

Intervene fixes that, or just get it dispelled.

[proudmoore]

Undispellable. Going into P3 right after a Frost breath lands really screws you up, unless you're a Feral. Hand of Freedom or Charge are poor seconds when you're slowed.

[Passive]

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=57499/warbringer

"In addition, your Intervene ability will remove all movement impairing effects."

[madocks]

As a prot warr, I use the belt and the Boots for my FR. Other slots I load up on expertise and eat expertise food.

[proudmoore]

That does actually remove the debuff? I had assumed that, since Hand of Freedom cannot remove the Breath debuff, nor could Warbringer.

[Bowen]

Intervene works a treat when p2 hits and tank switches in p3.

[Akeber]

That does actually remove the debuff? I had assumed that, since Hand of Freedom cannot remove the Breath debuff, nor could Warbringer.

HoF wont' remove the debuff, but will free you from the effects while it is active, which is all you really need. Intervene actually removes the debuff entirely.

[Raij]

I intervene every air phase, and if still slowed on a tank transition I use it as well.

[Judgement]

people who stomp about pompously being annoyed at individuals who ask for proof are annoying.

[lubz]

I more view it as it just doesn't matter with the buff anymore, not sure on the math.

As long as they wipe on sindragosa hm, having the tank take less damage WILL help the OPs guild. It has nothing to do with the buff at all.

[Martie]

people who stomp about pompously being annoyed at individuals who ask for proof are annoying.

Well, the way that people ask for proof in becomes annoying. I see a lot of "I think I'm right and I'll continue doing so untill you prove your point" going around, and almost as much asking for proof for (nigh) unprovable concepts. People who do that deserve to be stomped on.

[Mäcintosh]

Well, the way that people ask for proof in becomes annoying. I see a lot of "I think I'm right and I'll continue doing so untill you prove your point" going around, and almost as much asking for proof for (nigh) unprovable concepts. People who do that deserve to be stomped on.

This is not the world of Warcraft community forums, nor does anyone here ask or deserve to be stomped on. No matter how annoying YOU may think they are. What You think is annoying doesn't matter. If you have nothing constructive to say and can't keep from "stomping" on someone, go to the wow forums and flame people there. Keep that stuff out of here.

[Raij]

As long as they wipe on sindragosa hm, having the tank take less damage WILL help the OPs guild. It has nothing to do with the buff at all.

I highly agree, I was just making a personal comment. At 0% when we were wiping on this, FrR was necessary, and it is a very nice buffer for first kills, I still use it depending on healer makeup.

[felhoof]

What's really amusing to me is the idea that after he provided math demonstrating exactly how he was right, asking for math demonstrating otherwise was considered a bad thing.

Ultimately, ask yourself this: what's the more dangerous thing to your tank's survival? If just a steady stream of mixed damage is going to hurt you, more health is likely going to be better. If it's a specific burst scenario, minimizing that burst's damage is key. On Sindragosa, the overwhelmingly large source of burst damage and tank death is from breath + some other damage, especially after high stacks. Even if it isn't for you, it likely was for the OP. In that situation removing 30% of that damage essentially eliminates the mystic buffet issue entirely.

If you don't see the value of that and can't read the math, consider this: is shield wall good? Is barkskin? Imagine having that up every single time you take a large hit, guaranteed.

You can argue that you shouldn't have to and you suck if you do - but that's a really silly argument. Look for optimal values. No, Sindragosa is not cutting edge content, but that doesn't mean you have to be a jerk when someone asks to optimize for it. And yes, optimally it's better to use resistance here.

[Martie]

This is not the world of Warcraft community forums, nor does anyone here ask or deserve to be stomped on. No matter how annoying YOU may think they are. What You think is annoying doesn't matter. If you have nothing constructive to say and can't keep from "stomping" on someone, go to the wow forums and flame people there. Keep that stuff out of here.

Actually, I believe it is my (and everyone elses) responsibility to combat annoying, stupid or uninformed behavior. People come here to gain knowledge, and I'm more then willing to assist people in their search. That I volunteered some additional information (in this case "that's annoying behavior" and "you can't prove this with math, stop being silly") is just a freeby of mine.

Now, you may think it's annoying that I do this. If you honestly believe what you said, then you should just suck it up. If, however, you agree with me that it's a smart thing to combat this behavior so these forums remain a welcoming and friendly place with intelligent conversation, you should call me out on it, and I may very well read it and try to fix my error.
I'm not sure why you made the post that I'm replying to, but your objection to my post is noted - I just think you are wrong.

[Martie]

What's really amusing to me is the idea that after he provided math demonstrating exactly how he was right, asking for math demonstrating otherwise was considered a bad thing.

He claimed "You can have decent frost resist without sacrificing much." I agree, but there's no real math in that statement.
Then he claimed "Frost resistance helps against Sindy's frost damage." True, he used numbers there, but it's a rather big "duh" statement.

Then he asked for very specific proof that's not really related to the argument against the frost resist gear. The argument "against" frost resist gear simply states "with the 30% buff and skilled tanking, you don't need frost resist gear." His own numbers proved the truth behind that statement, since he claims frost resist gear prevents less then 15% of the damage.

My whole point is that asking for proof (and/or math where it doesn't apply) is stupid and not needed - the arguments he brings to the table are more then strong enough to stand on it's own without demanding proof from the other side. (Yelling "prove me wrong!" is a sign of weak argumentation, and thus not needed for good arguments.)

[felhoof]

He claimed "You can have decent frost resist without sacrificing much." I agree, but there's no real math in that statement.
Then he claimed "Frost resistance helps against Sindy's frost damage." True, he used numbers there, but it's a rather big "duh" statement.

He provided specific examples of what he would have to sacrifice as a bear. True, he did not enumerate the specific gains/losses per piece of gear on the belt, but he did the rest.

Honestly, he provided specific mathematical arguments on why FrR works better than just stacking HP. Other people said 'if you knew the math, you'd disagree' - without providing any mathematical arguments or links to same. When he asked for them, people told him to shut up. That's a far worse way of arguing than asking for quantitative research on why the other way is incorrect.

As to annoying behavior - it is far more annoying to me to see this forum - which had been fairly high on research values and theorycrafting - turn into yet another 'this is the gospel way and any other way is wrong'. More mathematical discourse and knowledge is always better. It's not irrelevant to ask for optimal values at any time. Something may be good enough, and that's fine - but that doesn't mean knowing what is better is bad. And honestly, it's very easy to figure out whether or not this was an overall EH gain. The math isn't tricky or hard, and thanks to the folks at maintankadin there's no excuse not to know how to do it. A 5% reduction in damage overall doesn't sound like much, but that's also a 5% TEH gain - and given what is being replaced, that's a significant gain. That it's also a damage reduction (instead of sponge) and that it helps with the burstiest part of the damage is only better.

Here's another tidbit that might interest you: while this is not crucial for dealing with Sindragosa, a lot of these same principles can be applied to one of the harder encounters in the game right now - Heroic Halion. Resistance and armor help there quite a bit as well, as does being expertise capped. Learning from one encounter helps plan for future ones. Ignorance helps nothing.

[Loganisis]

Wrong thread

[Bodasafa]

I'm going to pretend all that conversation about who should ask what and how didn't happen and get back on topic.

I'm about to tank this on H 25 for the first time next week. I have mixed feelings about using FrR or just going with straight up tank gear and a armor trinket + fang. When we first worked normal 25 at 15% buff I used head enchant, cloak enchant, and the ring. Since the 30% buff I just use the ring.

I'm thinking since I can only equip one Deviums (and the Ashen proc is kinda lame) I should go farm for the Ony 25 trinket, seems like a no brainer armor + resist = win, right?