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Thread: Gearing for EHP or Avoidance

  1. #1
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    Gearing for EHP or Avoidance

    Hi, well i have seen some posts that say mainly gear for EHP but an officer in our guild says im better gearing for avoidance for raiding. Im not sure wether to gear for avoidance or EHP, he says i may have lower EHP when geared for avoidance but its a lot better than having loads of EHP and not much avoidance. Which ever you recommend i should mainly gear for please check out my armoury and see if i should change anything.
    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...lade&cn=Phindo

  2. #2
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    There are so many threads about this that I'm not sure you're being serious.

    Check the theory and mechanics forum section and the stickies there. You'll find an in depth thread about why EH gearing is better for ICC by Aggathon. He also wrote a prot warrior guide which you can find a link to in his signature, which would help fix some of your awful gemming and enchanting decisions.

  3. #3
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    This is been answered lots of ways and in many threads.
    I do really want to say this to you, IMO you are a bit on the lower geared side for ICC. Don't mean you can't do it but you will still take some shots.
    As for what your officer in guild says about avoidance being better, he isn't right, at all. Its really an old way to think. There is still, even at this point in ICC, damage that is not avoidable. Blizz wanted us to get hit more that is why there is a 20% debuff in dodge. At that time EH (stam and armor) became more crucial.
    Now for your toon and a few minor suggestion: GET RID OF THE PARRY GEMS. Its almost never acceptable to gem parry. In fact you should gem all stam aside from the one red or purple you need for the activation of your meta. I would say grab mongoose for the weapon or blood draining. Get the PVP enchant for the shoulders for added stam. You can afford to do this with the def you have. You are a tad over hit capped, adjust that if you can to add something in the place of the wasted 1.5% extra hit you have going on. The chest should be superior health (275 health) and Armor for the cloak.

    Let the officer or raid leader as gently as possibe know that rolling the dice on avoidance is just that, EH and Stam are better mitigation at this point in game.

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    Yeah , the Op really needs to spend time reading here, after looking at his armoury, so many rookie mistakes, its to much to go in to, especially since its all already here in stickies. To OP, Soak up all the information in these forums , and if you do nothing else 100% for sure read the stickies here.

    Read the thread about hit and expertise by the guy who has the "so you think you need hit and expertise?... still think you need it?" siggie( your over abundance of hit gems and expertise gems and hit gear, tell me you value hit/expertise too much), and all the EHP ones. Also see what glyphs people use these days for survival (the only real discussion left about survival is about glyphs imo really since ehp vs avoidance has been proven not to really even be a discusion anymore, you just take what ever avoidance you can get, but focus on EHP, simple), you aint using survival glyphs , trinkets could be better too, yeah just read the stickies, it all there.
    "Gnoma Brasi sleeps withs the murlocs"

  6. #6
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    There isn't much point in explaining the reasons since it has been explained in full detail hundreds of times as to why [Insert stat here] isn't better than EHP.

    But I would like you to go out and experience it for yourself, do some challenging bosses for your gear level (ToGC, ICC without the buff) and see if avoidance has helped your survivability more than EHP. I believe this is the best way aside from reading the guides and stickies here to learning what will benefit your survivability in the long run.

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    Hi, well i have seen some posts that say mainly gear for EHP but an officer in our guild says im better gearing for avoidance for raiding.
    No.

    Search function is top right.
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  8. #8
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    My answer:
    Gear for both!


    Some fights are better done in EH gear, others are better done in avoidance/mitigation gear (oh ya, and you also need a frost resistance set...).
    Last edited by Timberton; 08-16-2010 at 12:04 AM.

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    Is this horse dead yet?

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    Yeah.... we's just kicking it now for fun.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  11. #11
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    Seriously - Gear for Looks! It is hard to get a full matching set!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phindo View Post
    Hi, well i have seen some posts that say mainly gear for EHP but an officer in our guild says im better gearing for avoidance for raiding. Im not sure wether to gear for avoidance or EHP, he says i may have lower EHP when geared for avoidance but its a lot better than having loads of EHP and not much avoidance. Which ever you recommend i should mainly gear for please check out my armoury and see if i should change anything.
    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...lade&cn=Phindo

    Avoidence for ICC raiding is a very complicated stragity. it often involves having several gear sets, changing out gear for spicific encounters, and most importantly, having a proper EHP pool to start with.

    at the beginner stages, avoidence is a very, very BAD idea for a new tank to stack. You need to work on getting the set peaces from frost. the avoidence from those sets are more then what you need to get started. from there, stack all stamina. Once your UNbuffed hp is a little over 45k, you can start to consider building an avoidence set. by this time you should have plenty of frost saved up after you have accumulated your base set. But even that is a very long way off from where you are now.

    In the mean time, NO PARRY EVER... you need to research somthing called deminishing returns. theres plenty on info on this site about it.. Until you have a full understanding of DM, just trust in the advice of the pros here on tankspot when we say never stack parry. and just stack stam for now.

    the next thing you want to look at is ehchants and jems.

    titanium plating is the way to go for shields.

    look to add mongoose or blood draining to ur wepon.. i personally would go with mongoose.

    your way over hit cap, and for a tank, too much hit is really a waste. change those jems out for stamina. disreguard socket bonuses and jsut jem the 30+ stam jems

    your spec is in good condition

    your glyphs need help.. you should be glyphing for cooldowns for raiding. cleve is great for aoe trash, but on any boss fight that needs to be glyph of shield wall. also, you want to pick eaither glyph of blocking or devistate. replace one of them with glyph of last stand.

    one of the things that make warriors unique is our control over cooldowns. we have a lot of them, and proper use of them is what seperates a good tank for a bad tank.

    once you have gotten the above taken care of, you need to look up a good rotation and learn to master it. there are plenty of resources here for you to find the right rotation, and how to incorporate ur cooldowns into them.


    finally, tell your officer he should spend more time here. as the information he is offering you is extreemly misinformed.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    titanium plating is the way to go for shields.
    No. The only thing that is good for is for soloing old raids (which you still dont need but meh). +18 stam or +22 defrating will all serve you better.

    Glyph choice is a more personal question. If your survivability is fine, more importantly, if your healing team is fine, you can probably do without the survival glyphs. Shield Wall & Last Stand glyphs get those cooldowns down to 2 mins. With the averge fight in icc being around 5 mins, it means you have 4 major cooldowns per fight at your disposal.

    Question is, do you need that much? When i was starting out in ICC and we had no buffs, i was making liberal use of those cooldowns and the glyphs made a huge difference. Now, with the 30% buff, i use once or twice, if ever, any cooldown. I took a much more undergeared toon into icc (running with 3 tank toons, yay!) and never had to worry about survival or have the feeling i didnt have enough cooldowns. As such, in today's 30% raiding of normal modes, i would go after other glyphs, like devastate or blocking or cleave for more threat. Best is to go in with stacks of each and change accordingly inside the raid instance to find what glyph best suits your needs. I regularly carry 5 different glyphs with me to customize for the fight.

  14. #14
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    titanium plating is the way to go for shields.
    I believe the bc 18 stam is the accepted EH chant.

    Santoro Spell checker is like your shield on these forums, you don't skip using your shield for raid tanking do ya ? I like reading through your ideas but it hurts my brain at the same time.

  15. #15
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    I swear, I'm just gonna start telling tanks to gem spirit. (not).

    As was said, lots of guides here stickied in the forums, lots of folks here actually worked it out and aren't just parroting something someone else somewhere told them.

    My honest advice? Even if you aren't sure, try it our way. If you really, really think we have it wrong after that, then try it some other way.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    Once your UNbuffed hp is a little over 45k, you can start to consider building an avoidence set.
    Wall of text, probably far less elequent than what Aggy or Mellvar or others could say.

    Personally, I'd suggest going with a more full armor set and a stamina set. The reason being is ICC is broken up into two categories - magic burst fights and everything else.

    First, magic burst fights (typically considered LDW, Sid, LK and if you're tanking Kelaseth) - Stamina and Magic Resistance (Shadow/Frost depending on the fight) will lead to more survaiblity. Dodge/Parry/Block/Armor are all useless against the magic burst (though you will stake big chunks of physical damage), so a more pure stamina build maximizies your surviablity with magic resistance minimizing incoming damage through these bursts. Gearing choices like having dual stamina trinkets, dual stamina righs, and the Morrogwar 25 wrists instead of the Saurfang 10 wrists will help build this Stamina set.

    Second, everything else. The best way to make yourself more healable is to maximize your armor. Dual armor rings, armor/stam trinket, DBS 10 wrists. You do this and the hits you take will be noticeably smaller and thus you will be easier to heal and keep healed. The problem with an avoidance set, is you're just not going to be getting much out of it. It's going to take a lot of rating points, because of diminishing returns, to get to the point that the extra avoidance is likely to occur with any frequencey during a boss fight, and then, the question is does the extra avoidance help you when you need it? If you do avoid, it likely will result in less raw damage being taken, but maxizing armor will essentially ahve the same effect because you'll be easier to keep topped off and if there is a problem with incoming heals, you'll be able to survive longer periods of time with no healing, giving your healers more wiggle room.

    I believe the math that's been done shows that unless you can get your effective avoidance (after accounting for diminishing returns) up to 80%+ (which I don't think is possible in ICC), EH (armor and stamina gearing) results in a noticebly lower mortality rate. But this is trying to recall the work better minds than mine have done.

    Aggy's work is a great place for a far better picture of this than I'm putting down.

    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...g-mechanics%29

    ****

    The crux of this though is being a big 'ol pile of meat and metal is a very athestically unappealling play style. The idea of being a more technical and precise player (such as focusing on being a nimbler player with higher avoidance) is very appealing. And with the 30% buff straying from the 'perfect possible path' is less unforgiving.

    If you're trying to maximize your survability, a stamina set will give you enough physical damage protection (armor) plus allow you to better take magic attacks, especially if focus on being magic-resistant for the fights that have high magic burst and heavier magic damage.

    Then a base set that maximizes armor (in every case where you have the choice between a bonus armor and higher stamina item, neck, wrist, fingers the armor gains > stamina gains I believe, when you're looking at ICC 10/25 N/H gear) for the rest of the fights will really help the healers out (even though they likely don'd need it, our holy pally regularly crits for heals > my health unless I have popped Last Stand) and maximize your surviablity in the raid.

    The hold up will always be play style. Avoidance sets are simply sexier gearing sets for a lot of tanks even if they aren't the perfect possible setup.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fledern View Post
    No. The only thing that is good for is for soloing old raids (which you still dont need but meh). +18 stam or +22 defrating will all serve you better.

    .

    not true.. there is a wonderful relation between sb/v and armor, however, i cant find the right thread at the moment.

  18. #18
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    IIRC, Plating is only better if you use SB on CD, so every 40 seconds. If you use it as a CD lite then stamina is better. Plus plating does no good versus magic, while stamina does.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  19. #19
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    at this point, i would stick to what logan is explaining.

  20. #20
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    not true.. there is a wonderful relation between sb/v and armor, however, i cant find the right thread at the moment.
    Are you thinking of the order of damage reduction applications making one exponentially better based on the other?

    The problem with this thought is that you aren't a paladin, and block rating is so low on current gear it still isn't worth it. Def or Stam is still better.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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