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Thread: [Warrior] Critical Block Mechanics

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    Wartotem, I am not sure you can just equalize dodge and parry for this. The equation to convert avoidance based on DR is not linear, so doing:

    DR(dodge) + DR(parry) != DR(Dodge+Parry)

    You may want to verify that.

    Or are you doing the comparison just versus Dodge or just versus Parry? Trying to figure it out a bit.
    Because Dodge & Parry have the same DR (if you include Agi/Str as rating), it is EITHER rating.
    At any amount of previous similar rating, extra Dodge/Parry ratings grant the same damage reduction, so the mastery breakpoint only works versus a single avoidance DR anyway. That means that if for a certain mastery rating value the break-even point is 2400, but you have 2600 parry and 2200 dodge, dodge is still a better choice for another 200 rating while parry isn't.

    I am not sure how my differentials went wrong, my spreadsheet is correct on 'em, just the giant math thingy ain't working out yet atm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  2. #162
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    I have the math for derivatives of the DR equation if you need. The document they are in was based in 3.2, so the values are not accurate (parry and dodge had different curves back then) and it goes into a dodge versus parry conversion, but if you want the derivative equations for those this is what I have:

    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...MDY4ZTM4&hl=en

    Should come out as a pdf

  3. #163
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    I got the right formulas, just that the equation between both avoidance & mastery didn't work out.
    I'll write it out tonight and see if I can't find the correct break-even point formulas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  4. #164
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    Well if it helps, one inconsistency that I noticed was in how you multiplied your 30% in the equations. You treated all of the percentages, except for the 30% (reduction from block) as proper decimals.

    For example your 11,232 in one of the steps should have been 0.11232 rather than 11.232. I haven't worked with it enough to know if that makes a difference in the result though.

  5. #165
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    Nah, I did use % in both formulas, check Avoidance if you don't believe me (1232 rating gives 6.56... as result, which is %)
    I then just used the 30% as that and moved all the rest to decimals to make it more readable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    Its only with 33% shieldblock uptime else the damage reduction would be closer to 60% instead of 50%.
    I'm not convinced that averaging the effect of shield block provides valuable information. Even with our current step away from a pure EH mentality, there is something to be said for minimizing your worst case situation. By definition we are safer with shield block up, so why pursue itemization that minimizes average incoming damage exclusively. Surely, itemization during our most vulnerable state is more important?

    At the very least - could you also provide these graphs independent of Shield Block?
    Last edited by Booi; 11-21-2010 at 05:34 AM.

  7. #167
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    Shieldblock has a limited impact on mastery. With an average 33% uptime mastery starts at 0,7146% damage reduction, without shieldblock mastery starts at 0,6771% damage reduction. Breakpoint with 33% uptime is at 4600 total ratings, break point without shieldblock will be around 600-700 ratings higher and the graph wouldn't include a dip around 77,4% unhittable softcap.

    You can gear for reducing the amount of worst case scenario's or for surviving worst case scenario's. For reducing the amount of worst case scenario's mastery will effect about twice as many hits as avoidance depending on diminishing returns. For surviving worst case scenario's stamina/armor will win out so the question mastery vs avoidance is less relevant.

    Think we should focus on being easy to heal. You could focus on being less spiky going for lots of mastery or focus on best average damage reduction or focus on worst case scenario's. Think all 3 are valid tactics but worst case scenario's is mainly about EH not about avoidance/mastery.
    Personally I'll go with a healthy amount of EH and aim for the 77,4% softcap, with lesser gear this might not be the optimum average damage reduction but it will reduce spikyness and with better gear it also is the best for average damage reduction. Just my 2 cents

  8. #168
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    The choice isn't always EH vs Avoidance - Especially not when reforging.

    I think the question that does come up is when you hit your 77.4% soft-cap, are you advocating a reforge of mastery into dodge or parry?
    Last edited by Booi; 11-21-2010 at 07:12 AM.

  9. #169
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    Will be a personal preference, won't make a big difference. Mastery will smooth the damage out a bit more, not exceeding the softcap by reforging to avoidance will give a small bit more damage reduction. Can even go for a bit more hit/expertise since tanks with full vengeance can do some decent dps.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post
    I'm not convinced that averaging the effect of shield block provides valuable information. Even with our current step away from a pure EH mentality, there is something to be said for minimizing your worst case situation. By definition we are safer with shield block up, so why pursue itemization that minimizes average incoming damage exclusively. Surely, itemization during our most vulnerable state is more important?

    At the very least - could you also provide these graphs independent of Shield Block?
    By that idea, Critical Block should not be counted on at all and Mastery will simply suck. Then again, so will avoidance. The entire idea of avoidance vs mastery discussions is damage reduction, not worst-case scenarios, that's what EHP is for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  11. #171
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    This is the equation you get when you put the differentials for damage reduction together.
    MR = (179,28 * 65,63144 * 11088) / [ 0,00675 * (AR + 11088) ] - ( 179,28 * 0,7053 / 0,00675 )
    Work out all the multiplications & fractions and you get:
    Quote Originally Posted by Math
    Break-even MR = 3.465.174.139.242 / (AR+11088) - 18732,768
    So this is a way smaller constant part.
    At 0 Avoidance you need to have 9453 Mastery rating before the gain per rating is better.
    At 1000 AR, the break-even point for Mastery lies at 4982. If you took one of Takethecake's graphs for 7000 rating, you'ld need to go all the way to 5000 before the graph went up!
    1500 AR -> 3136 MR
    2000 AR -> 1497 MR (Roughly the break-even at 5400 Mastery, end of the flat-ish line)
    2100 AR -> 1191 MR
    2200 AR -> 892 MR
    2300 AR -> 600 MR
    2400 AR -> 315 MR
    2500 AR -> 35 MR
    2513 AR -> 0 MR
    At this point, Mastery Rating is always more valuable untill the unhittable softcap.
    Last edited by Airowird; 11-21-2010 at 03:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  12. #172
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    I am not advocating for mastery at the expense of EHP, and not even at the expense of avoidance. I just think it is near-sighted to close the argument based on mitigation without consideration for the situation in which you find yourself. It is a mistake to assume that avoidance, especially with varying degrees of probability, can't affect your chance of survival.

    Certainly, if it takes a boss 10 melee swings to knock a tank down, if flame breaths don't hit us for 60% of our health, if our healers never have other mechanics to worry about; the mitigation argument will remain. Even ignoring critical block, as you suggest. In an effort to avoid burst situations you might be better off with a 30% reduction twice as often than a pure avoid half as frequent. Now if tanks start dropping to empty mana pools, and Heroic Bosses hit like school girls - then certainly I will concede the point.

    For example.
    If X Dodge gave Y chance at 100% damage reduction
    and X Parry gave twice Y chance at 50% damage reduction
    I think you'd be hard pressed to find a tank who wouldn't take parry over dodge.

    What if parry was 49% damage reduction instead of 50%?
    Where's the cutoff?

    I don't see this argument as cut and dry as it is being presented - and it certainly shouldn't be independent of encounter design. A community of warriors are ready to adopt your ideas - and what if you are wrong

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post
    I'm not convinced that averaging the effect of shield block provides valuable information. Even with our current step away from a pure EH mentality, there is something to be said for minimizing your worst case situation. By definition we are safer with shield block up, so why pursue itemization that minimizes average incoming damage exclusively. Surely, itemization during our most vulnerable state is more important?
    Yes but with the much higher health pools compared to normal swings (and normal swings is the only thing we can reduce with anything, including armor, most of the time, because nearly everything else is magic) the chance to get only swings outside of SB is small.

    If you use SB on CD 1/3 of the swings are inside of SB, 2/3 are outside of SB (well maybe the boss casts something than it's not that equal but anyway). If you need about 5 swings to die and each swing takes 2s you need about 10s to die. SB is 10s. There are 15 possible starts for the sequence. If the sequence starts with one of the 5 swings inside of SB at least one swing is covered by SB. The same is the case for the 4 swings before SB. So only about 1/3 of all possible sequences are not covered by SB. To assume that you cannot cover at least some of the hits with SB is not realistic.

    If you don't use SB on CD but when you drop low, the chances are much higher that you will have SB to cover the bad sequence (even if your overall dmg is higher).

    I know, you are speaking about worst cases. But the chances to have a streak with 5 (or whatever it is) hits that are neither coverd by avoidance nor covered by your normal block (without SB) is quite low. Only 1/3 of this worst cases is not coverd with SB at all.

    Sure it can happen, but I doubt that it's more important to think about this case than to think about a situation that is covered at least partly by SB. Especially since tanks don't die because of worst cases in beta, but because of healers going oom. At least that's what I've read.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post
    For example.
    If X Dodge gave Y chance at 100% damage reduction
    and X Parry gave twice Y chance at 50% damage reduction
    I think you'd be hard pressed to find a tank who wouldn't take parry over dodge.
    Actually, that would most likely be a 50/50 chance. Statisticly speaking, both grant the same overall damage reduction. While you consider the "but I will have more chance to reduce SOME damage" argument over "I will have more chance to take totally NO damage" PoV, it is not difficult to find someone who thinks the other way around. Also, any boss effect that works like a Paladin Seal (debuff on any melee damage done), will favor Dodge over the above mentioned Parry (that was scrapped because of EXTRA DR on the way it worked, making it useless past 15+%)

    What if parry was 49% damage reduction instead of 50%?
    Where's the cutoff?
    At about 49,999999999%
    Less damage reduction is still less. As long as it is a CHANCE for damage reduction, pure statistics come to play and only overall damage reduction counts. Only when you reach total unhittability (gotta love that term) does the reliability of block come into play, and even then only for the 30% damage reduction it guarantees.

    I don't see this argument as cut and dry as it is being presented - and it certainly shouldn't be independent of encounter design. A community of warriors are ready to adopt your ideas - and what if you are wrong
    Sure, the encounter might also involve movement, big breaths and a gazilion other things that don't make the game as simple as a 3-line magic formula, but for nearly all those cases, you need EHP to create a buffer for your healers, for all other parts of the fight, you need damage reduction to not make them go OOM. And Warrior Mastery right now is nothing but damage reduction (on a statistical level). So the only thing it can mathematicly compare to in ALL cases is Avoidance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  15. #175
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    Updated my latest math post to account for boss levels (and a small rounding error that turned to be a not-so-small impact)

    For those that wonder, the reverse formula (=after how much avoidance do I need to switch to Mastery?) is as followed:
    Quote Originally Posted by Math
    Break-even AR = ROOT[3.465.174.139.242 / (MR + 18732,768)] - 11088
    With Root[...] Being the square root of that all ofcourse
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    This is the equation you get when you put the differentials for damage reduction together.
    MR = (179,28 * 65,63144 * 11088) / [ 0,00675 * (AR + 11088) ] - ( 179,28 * 0,7053 / 0,00675 )
    Work out all the multiplications & fractions and you get:

    So this is a way smaller constant part.
    At 0 Avoidance you need to have 9453 Mastery rating before the gain per rating is better.
    At 1000 AR, the break-even point for Mastery lies at 4982. If you took one of Takethecake's graphs for 7000 rating, you'ld need to go all the way to 5000 before the graph went up!
    1500 AR -> 3136 MR
    2000 AR -> 1497 MR (Roughly the break-even at 5400 Mastery, end of the flat-ish line)
    2100 AR -> 1191 MR
    2200 AR -> 892 MR
    2300 AR -> 600 MR
    2400 AR -> 315 MR
    2500 AR -> 35 MR
    2513 AR -> 0 MR
    At this point, Mastery Rating is always more valuable untill the unhittable softcap.
    Question for ya, are your AR values considered like 2000 AR means 2000 dodge and 2000 parry? It looks like your formulas don't factor in shield block and are based on level 85 mobs? If they are factoring in SB then they should generally match up with the graphs I put on page 5 though, or I grossly missed a step on my spreadsheet.

    But my 7000 rating graph shows an increase almost instantly and starts to register a loss at just over 5000 rating (which is when you hit the unhittable cap on lvl 85 mobs), no sure how you are interpreting the graphs.

    I think that finding a simple formula for tracking mastery's value compared to AR is going to be a difficult thing to do if shield block and block cap are factored into the equation though. The lower softcap at 77.6% will normally be a cusp on the curve.
    Last edited by Takethecake; 11-22-2010 at 06:57 AM.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    <snip>
    2513 AR -> 0 MR
    At this point, Mastery Rating is always more valuable untill the unhittable softcap.
    Can you clarify the meaning of AR here? I'm unclear whether AR = Dodge Rating + Parry Rating or whether AR is either Dodge Rating OR Parry Rating.

    Perhaps a case study might help: If we look at the premade T11 warrior (from here) we see Dodge = 11.53% (1426 rating), Parry = 13.78% (1712 rating), Mastery = 20% block/crit block (13.94, +5.94, 1065 rating) without any gems. If we take your calculations as given, how would we socket / enchant? The most common question is going to be yellow sockets, where we have a direct choice between dodge and mastery. In most other slots, there isn't really a choice (there might be different gear choices in that slot, but not gem/enchant).

  18. #178
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    Balancing parry - dodge - mastery is less about gems and more about reforging. The values you can archieve through gemming are quite small compared to reforging.

    Anyway you should always try to have dodge and parry as close as possible (with maybe a little headstart for parry because of hold the line).

    So your strategy will be:
    0. get all your enchants
    1. look up if you want to have more or less mastery than what you actually have
    2. gem accordingly (probably full stam in blue, stam-pary in red and stam-dodge or stam-mastery in yellow, the last one depends if you want to have more or less mastery than you have)
    3. if you need even more mastery:
    - reforge the higher of dodge / parry to mastery until you reach your target value for mastery or you run out of items to reforge
    if you need even less mastery:
    - reforge mastery to the lower of dodge / parry until you reach your target value for mastery or you run out of items to reforge
    4. if you can reforge at all after that, try to balance dodge and parry even more (with a little bit higher parry if you have hold the line)

    Either at the start or at the end do whatever you need to your hit/expertise.

  19. #179
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    The windwalk enchant, dodge procs from trinkets and hold the line all influence parry/dodge. It might be best to have parry around 2% higher then dodge.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takethecake View Post
    Question for ya, are your AR values considered like 2000 AR means 2000 dodge and 2000 parry? It looks like your formulas don't factor in shield block and are based on level 85 mobs? If they are factoring in SB then they should generally match up with the graphs I put on page 5 though, or I grossly missed a step on my spreadsheet.
    The AR value is of a single rating, not the sum of both. 2000 AR = 2000 Dodge Rating for a Dodge vs Mastery comparison. I did not assume that you would be using equal ratings, and because the DR formula is the same, I simply used a single avoidance stat to compare to. I factored in boss level and Shield Block, which actually only effects Mastery numbers and even then only because of the Critical Block portion.

    But my 7000 rating graph shows an increase almost instantly and starts to register a loss at just over 5000 rating (which is when you hit the unhittable cap on lvl 85 mobs), no sure how you are interpreting the graphs.
    I did made a wrong conclusion there. The correct conclusion would have been "If you took the graphs, you'ld see that none under 7000 show an increase at 5000 Mastery". I forgot you based your graphs on total rating, I use fixed avoidances and compare Mastery to that.

    I think that finding a simple formula for tracking mastery's value compared to AR is going to be a difficult thing to do if shield block and block cap are factored into the equation though. The lower softcap at 77.6% will normally be a cusp on the curve.
    Shield Block (cap) will always be an issue. On my spreadsheet I have it all worked out, but it requires far more numbers to express the complete balance and that is something I didn't wish to post in a forum thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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