I wouldn't expect anyone to gem for full mastery as you're suggesting.
There is a known bug Dogmeat with vigilance, i dont know if it can help you to finish the spec
Just try to avoid any mouseover the vigilance talent, it worked for me
I wouldn't expect anyone to gem for full mastery as you're suggesting.
Still gemming for stam.
1 socket = 15 stam
2 socket = 30 stam
So let say you have a yellow + blue socket with 30 stam bonus there is no reason to not put a 20 mastery+30 stam in the yellow (using blue quality gems).
Tbh gems feel rather "weak" in cata atm... 300 stam gives ~5k hp fully buffed which is sort of insignificant when you already have 180k+ hp.
I expect ppl might satisfy socket bonus more often (even an avoidance bonus) using green/purple gems and swapping in the right trinkets for every fight.
I don't get it, why do you still want stam? Avoidance help your healers save their mana and they stated several times there should be nothing that can gib you in a global. Our avoidance values will be rather low so gemming for them or going for mastery looks like the logical route to me.
Normal melee damage shouldn't be able to kill you in cata anymore but there are still a few abilities like Chimareon's double attack that prefer a large EH buffer. No idea how much health is "enough" but completely gemming avoidance might be a bit much.
An other point is, that stamina is one of the base stats that you can only push with gems. Well, there are also some enchantments, but most tanking enchantments don't compete against each other, so you can see them as given.
Ratings like mastery, dodge and parry can be also increased by reforging. Since you can do that, it's a much greater increase than what you can get through gemming for them. At least if you are not near a soft or hard unhittable cap.
However we will see if a little more mitigation is better or worse than this little bit more health. We cannot tell this at the moment since Blizz is tempering with the healers very intensely. When they get the healers where they should be, we will be in a much better position to answer this question.
Protection Warrior SpreadsheetOriginally Posted by Ion
Wartotem: 2-3% more health don't let your healers chose the small efficient heal instead of the more effective heal. 2 or 3% more health can save you in a very tight situation, but that's all. No healer has time to think about if you are hurt for 2 or 3% more or less. Never. The healing differences between the two heals are so huge that the decision will depend on them. And they don't add up over time. As long as you are sitting between 5% and 95% of health they don't change anything what the healer does. And chances are high that most heals that get you to full are overheals for at least 2% of your health anyway.
Higher health-pools increases warrior self healing and affects vengeance and stuff, but it will not change the spell selection of healers alot. Higher avoidance/mitigation helps your healers more. One less hit just will give your healers a chance to cancel a heal or start the slow effective heal instead of the more effective heal. EH is considered good against potential tank death but it's not considered mana saver.
I don't want to say, that stamina is a bad stat.
There is no point in discussing stamina vs avoidance/mastery now. Whichever is better will depend on the fights, and they're not done tuning them yet.
You don't survive chimaeron's double attack via EH. One hit from the boss does ~145k damage (after armor). The buff from the bot saves you from the 2nd hit.
I would actually argue chimaeron as a perfect example where you stack avoidance so your healer have a higher chance to heal for less.
We didn't kill it using traditional tanks (why bother when you will drop to 10k every hit?)... Ret paladin and dps DKs (in blood pres) MTs the boss fine =/.
Here are some number to toy with:
Warrior t11 epics with stam trinkets, fully raid buffed matching socket bonus with partial stam gems: ~194k hp.
Healing Wave avg: 8k
Greater Healing Wave avg: 18k
Incoming damage goes from ~20k (lol?) in 10 man normals to ~50-60k in HM (25m halfus drake). Cho'gall avg (10 reg) hit over an entire fight = 32143.
10 gems of 60stam gives ~ 10143hp.
10 gems of 40 mastery gives ~2.8%block+crit block.
Sadly I have not advanced that far in 25m heroic raids so maybe sinestra 25 will be hitting for 80k?
You still have to think in terms of worst case scenarios when talking about survivability. It's not unthinkable that you might not be topped off before the chimaeron double attack, or that you take a string of unavoided/unblocked hits. All the arguments for EH gearing are still true except for healer mana not being an issue. In some scenario where that 2.8% block actually averages out to be 2.8% block over the entire fight though, I doubt it will have done much of anything to help healer mana.
Ok, here is a better argument for stamina:
As Resto Shaman my LB right now gives me enough mana for 1 Greater Healing Wave.
That means that in a scenario where I am constantly using Healing Wave, Stamina helps me replace 2 HW with a LB + GHW for less mana used for equal healing. The only thing I need for that is a tank that can survive 3-4s without getting healed. Stamina guarantees that.
Because of the current design where most healers get a free or mana-returning talent for a DPS spell, being able to give them the time to cast that DPS move usually comes out better.
Protection Warrior SpreadsheetOriginally Posted by Ion
As I said: I don't want to make a case against EH. It is a good or even the best thing for staying alive (we don't know how the encounters will be at the end and how that relates to tank HP and mitigation).
But even if it is 5% for non-dks those 5% will never give the tank the above mentioned 3-4s. Most tanks will be able to survive 3-4s anyway, at least if it comes to what GC tells us all the time. At least after they got healed to nearly full before those seconds. But 5% more max-HP does not give you those 3-4s if you would not have them without the 5%.
If the tank is at 10% instead of 5% you would start your fastest and biggest heal available, anyway. If the tank is at 90% instead of 95% you would probalby chose the moste efficient heal. If the tank has 95% instead of 100% you would either cast a slow heal in both cases, or switch to something else that is more important. You don't chose another heal weather the tank is at 45%, 50% or 55% when you start the heal. Most healers would not even recognise teh difference between those values.
Big EH chunks eventually let you chose a different heal. But we are speaking about those few % that you can get if you solely gem for stamina. But it would probably not be 5% because most tanks would just try to match colors so they would get at least half of those stam, anyway. Together with some bonus stamina. So the difference would be about 2-3%. As I said, they can be very attractive. But they will never affect the spell-selection of healers. They don't save mana.
Trinket choices I belive will be the deciding factor. While using the heroic-blue premade+rep epics, I threw in Hit/expertise gears to help me hold threat on fights such as artemdes10: where you vengeance stack reset on flight phases.I expect ppl might satisfy socket bonus more often (even an avoidance bonus) using green/purple gems and swapping in the right trinkets for every fight.
In fights such as old patchwerk/brutallus/gormok if you do not have the EH you simply die in a second. Outside of those burst fights you may still want stam+armor for unexpected situations.
Bears were the king of EH even in BC: why did healers hate healing bears? Because they were essentially a huge mana sponge.
In many cases in Cata you already come with the health (via gear) to survive most situations, not just for 1 extra hit, but for 2 or 3 hits. Go ahead and pop a cooldown/trinket if somehow all your healers got MCed during chogall and no one broke them out, you will probably still live through that 9 stacks on Cho in 10 man regular (even if you wipe its more of an execution error - play better!).
In ICC, do you still wear 2x stam trinkets with the +30%? For fights outside of sind/LK there is imo very little point. I would use a threat set (with organ+a hit trinket!) on fights like saurfang/BQL so our dps can go all out without worrying about threat. I still live fine because I have 30% more health than what I really need.
I am rather disappointed that many people treat the amount of health they have as the size of their epeen - most commonly seen in pugs.
Threat + mitigating damage is as important to a tank as not dying in 3 seconds.
@Healer getting mana:
Priest smiting is pretty much not worth the time+mana+talents+glyph as archangel has been nerfed... Unlike disc holy doesnt even get heal via smite.
Restro Druids do not have dps mana restore talents
Paladins can judge for +2.5k mana.
Shaman lightning bolt imo is not all that great for PvE. 2/2 returns @7k/LB you get 3k mana (but you spend 1.4k casting LB). You lose mana if you miss (17% chance! ). You can spend 5 pts to convert spirit to hit =S (but that is overdoing it!)
Because of how the fight works you can walk in with 800k health and still die (massacre reduce it to 10k). The key imo to chimaeron is to keep OT's health above 150k. Any additional health is insignificant (in fact converts to extra damage taken for the double atk/massacre).
I may be wrong since we still have not kill it in HMs. We do consistently 1-2 shot it in regular though.
If you want to use numbers you'll probably have to use 140-150k tanks in full 346 blues for normal modes and the 194k tank in epics for heroics. Difference seems damn large btw.
Interesting point would be which fights benefit from 10k extra hp and what the point would be where you have enough EH.
bot breaks down during feud where the heads fight each other and not attack the tank.
The bot guarantees the survival of your primary tank (as his health will nvr drop below 10k from a reg hit even in cloth gear with 0 armor). Thus we used a ret paladin with RF.
Have OT taunt during double attack (to eat it) then have MT taunt it back.
Right, because a dead tank can sure generate a lot of threat. Survivability always has been and still is the most important thing for a tank. You're right that threat and mitigation are more important than they were, but they're definitely not as important as survivability. Also, you're just rehashing all the arguments that aggathon's post addressed. As long as RNG exists, EH will reign superior over avoidance.
The gemming trade off between 2.8% block and 10k hp is an obvious one, and quite frankly so is the trinket choice. From the trinkets I've found on wowhead, there's no combination of trinkets and gear that can get you to unhittable. The trade offs are these: 482 stam for either 2.7% block or 1.5% dodge, or 964 stam for 5.4% block, or 964 stam for 2.7% block and 1.5% dodge. None of those are good trade offs, not even for fights where healer mana is tight.
As far as threat trinkets go - don't use them. If you need more threat get it through reforging or gear choices, never trade stamina for threat stats.
You can swap trinkets in between fights much easier and cheaper than reforging. You can sac your hit/exp for avoidance via reforging but unless you have multiple sets of gears (usually come @farm) you will need to sac "something" for those threat stats. If you need that hit to interrupt maloriak's aoe you will prob need to swap in some less-than-optimal gear such as a hit trinket.
With the slow ramp up time of vengeance you will want to have threat in certain fights, or else your dps will just pull right off you/you waste even more healer's mana by delaying the kill by another 30 seconds.
No amount of stam stacking will help if your healer go afk for 6 seconds, 15s if you pop CDs.
The current state of game is that you almost never wipe (under proper execution) due to a tank just "dying". It is usually your healers going oom/losing someone to an AoE/one of nef's bad RNGs. I believe in cataclysm under normal circumstances every single bit of damage removal helps in those fights.
True. But EH (or stam alone) is NOT equal to survivability. Avoidance/mitigation can play a big role here, at least if you can reach the unhittable soft cap. (And there are also your CDs and stuff.)Survivability always has been and still is the most important thing for a tank.
If you have enough HP to survive through 4 full hits you probably will never get enough stam to survive a 5ths hit through trinkets and gemming. A warrior who is unhittable and gets the same hits only has to take the dmg of 4*7/10 = 2,8 hits for then, in worst case. And the chances to have the worst case are reduced, too.As long as RNG exists, EH will reign superior over avoidance.
So even if the unhittable tank only has 3/4 of the HP of you she can survive easily the same hits you can survive. HP differences will probably never be as huge between tanks. That would be a bigger difference than between tanks and everybody else. If she has 7/8 of your life (which may be more likely) she can even survive one hit more than you.
I know the big flaw in this calculation is that stam is the only thing that helps against magic and a big chunk of incoming dmg is some kind of magic. I just don't like the blind repetition of what we learned in Wrath.
In BC we had two warrior tanks. One went for EH the other got passive unhittable. While we did progression there were some encounters that our raid could only handle with the unhittable tank. (One of them was Mother even as it should favor EH. He never had a chance to survive the worst case, but the EH tank got too much worst cases for our CDs and healers.) So I don't think that EH always was better.
Cata is not WotLK and both are not BC. Block has changed, incoming dmg pattern is different. Healers have different tools and - one of the most important changes - Mana will matter. Maybe it's not the case at the moment for every healer, but it's the case for holy priests and GC said that holy priests are their target for how much mana a healer should have.
Most of that caters for avoidance/mitigation instead of EH. Due to all the balancing happing, I don't think that we know enough to tell the worth of each of them. I just don't believe a flat statement that one will be better than everything else without a reference to some math.
Last edited by Katzazi; 11-13-2010 at 05:31 AM.