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Thread: [Warrior] Critical Block Mechanics

  1. #41
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    The "small bonus" of critical block gets quite big with stacking mastery. And every critical block doubles the mitigated amount of dmg for that hit. Additionally since you get actually hit for a comperable small value your vengeance will not drop and you will get more rage.

    So with taking mastery we
    - will be easier to heal, since we will be less spiky
    - will have more rage to spend ( extrem spiky dmg leads to either full or empty bars)
    - will do more dmg/thread with this rage because of higher vengeance
    with more or less the same amount of dmg that has to be healed by the healers.

    Looks like a win-win-win-situation. I'll try it tonight. (That is if my server comes up...)

  2. #42
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    The problem with Mastery, as shown by that spreadsheet is that once you hard-cap it, it becomes optimal to start dropping it in favor of Dodge/Parry. This leads to a situation where you are still 'hit immune', but not capped on Critical Block--as dropping enough Mastery to not be wasteful of the soft-cap moves you away from the hard-cap.

    It's a bit backwards, really.

    They really should be making Critical Block just about Critical Blocks with their own distinct combat table roll. There's no reason for it to be two-roll and no reason that a Mastery called 'Critical Block' needs to add to vanilla Block as well.
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  3. #43
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    The inflection points make it every bit as cumbersome and opaque as arp ever was. They should address it on design principle alone.

  4. #44
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    It appears my initial gut reaction to our Mastery is correct given the current information... lacking.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  5. #45
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    After reforging I'm at 47% block with 27% chance on a critical block. I'm wondering about what Shield Block will do with the crit blocks.

    In the 2-roll system I'd expect 27% of my blocks to be critical blocks, or 12.69% of all attacks. But does the 2-roll system also mean that getting 147% block by popping Shield Block I get 40% (1.47*0.27) of all incoming attacks as crit blocks, or will the system first determine whether it will be a block and afterwards apply the 27% chance on a Critical Block? In other words, will Shield Block push some normal blocks of the table in favour of Critical Blocks, or will it only help to push the last 3-4% of full hit chance off the table and therefore mostly only work as a threat talent?

  6. #46
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    It will only help push the last 3-4% of full hit off in a two-roll system.

    Basically the combat table will roll to determine if it is a Block or not, if it is determined to be a Block there is a 27% chance for it to be turned into a Critical Block.

    So, yes, basically Shield Block becomes totally worthless without Heavy Repercussions at high levels of Mastery. (Another reason why the two-roll setup is not an optimal design.)
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  7. #47
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    Thanks Kojiyama. Even though realising it was a 2-roll system, I was unsure how values such as 100+% would work in that.

    I guess we really need that additional Critical Block chance live in beta now to make higher levels of mastery rewarding.

  8. #48
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    I seem to have different numbers =/
    I reforged avoidance into mastery on my beta toon. Sitting at:
    12.49 dodge
    12.33 parry
    40.53 block
    +1666 mastery (+9.25) @+21% block, 43% crit block.

    Toon is @ 1/2 345 blues and 1/2 epics. Stam gemmed except for 2 stam/mastery gems for meta.
    I need 18.8 more mastery (~3384 rating) to get 100% crit block with Hold the Line... this will also give me +23.5% block.


    tbh somehow I doubt we will hit that rating any time in the next 2 tiers.
    Personally I am loving mastery... compared to avoidance (which suffers diminishing returns) mastery only gets more power the more you have (due to the crit block component improving it as well).


    On a side note anyone noticed how weak gems feel? @60stam a gem*~12 sockets that is only 7200 un-mod HP. Which is rather trivial when I am sitting @ ~144k hp in raids already...

  9. #49
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    I have same numbers as you unix a little more block as i tried to gemme more mastery and stam than pure stam.

    And i agree, i think that believing that we will be mastery capped is an utopia. We wont reach that cap for about one year maybe more, if we ever reach it.

    We need like the twice the amount of mastery on items, we'll see how ilvl will scale but i doubt that we will have ilvl500 stuff anytime soon.

    That cause a problem atm in raids, we take shitload of dmg as warrior versus paladin (o didnt play enough with dk or drod to tell ) and if it stays like that , the situation will be the same with the ulduar period where warriors were just good to trash tank or ot'ing shitty adds.

  10. #50
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    Paladins atm are sort of "broken" since they can almost hit full block (mine has ~98% dodge parry block now). Block then becomes just another form of armor. The maintankadin guys are talking about it a lot.

    So paladins take very consistent mitigated damage while our damage intake is more spiky on a patchwerk type boss.

    This makes paladins very powerful right now but as we hit the later tiers (assuming if blizzard doesn't change a single thing) warriors will catch up since our critical block becomes more powerful, while paladins shift block to avoidance/threat stats (which tbh are sort of pointless given the strength of vengeance).

    Ofc, assuming there is a boss that enrages every 30 seconds for 10 seconds... warriors would shine since we can just pop shield block at that point. Considering shield wall non-glyphed is only 40% reduction, shield block is far more powerful cooldown with enough mastery ratings.

    Heroic modes have yet to be released: will bosses still hit for 20-40k? Maybe 60k max? (10 man chogall has avg of 31892.8) If that is the case stam stacking via gems+trinket becomes rather unattractive (you already have enough hp to live through 3 hits...) and you will want to stack more mastery for the mitigation so your healers doesn't go oom.

    DKs atm enjoy an abundance of cooldowns (tbh its like early wrath on steroids). They feel rather squishy in heroics since I cannot chain them 100% of the time: but when I start tanking raid bosses I feel a sense of immortality.... Death strike which heals and shield me for 45k (rmb chogall avg 30k hits...) gives me a lot of control of my own health bar (Death strike really shine in the hydra boss in BWD that does the massacre spell: Death strike shields for something like 65k+!).

    I am a little concerned about the vigilance mechanic. Assuming all tank classes are balanced somehow, vigilance becomes the reason for warriors to be stuck as an offtank class: since other classes will benefit from taking 3% less damage with a warrior offtank. The vengeance portal also feels somewhat weak since only 1% of damage taken by vengeance target goes towards your stack....
    Last edited by Unix; 10-26-2010 at 09:20 AM.

  11. #51
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    A warrior maintank could still cast vigilance on an offtank. A warrior main tank and a warrior offtank can cross-cast vigilance. I don't think we'll see that sort of pigeonholing going on.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Unix View Post
    +1666 mastery (+9.25) @+21% block, 43% crit block.
    9.25 * 1.25% + 10% = 21.56% Block?
    Sorry for being dense, but where this not going to be changed to 2.5%?
    9.25 * 2.5% + 10% = 33.12% Block?
    Last edited by Orlanth; 10-27-2010 at 08:21 PM. Reason: Forgot about the +10% part, and change my question
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  13. #53
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    - Base chance to block is 20% (5%+15% from prot spec sentinel skill)
    - You come with 8 mastery from the mastery skill you prob already have on live.
    (8+9.25)*2.5=~43%

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    A warrior maintank could still cast vigilance on an offtank. A warrior main tank and a warrior offtank can cross-cast vigilance. I don't think we'll see that sort of pigeonholing going on.
    Casting Vigi on the (non-Warrior) OT does not grant you 3% damage reduction.
    Vigilance on an OT that currently isn't taking damage (think Sindy, Saurfang, ...) does not give you any Vengeance.
    Therefor, Vigilance is not so useful while MTing.
    Vigilance helps the other tank take (less) damage and it helps you do (more) damage. This is exactly what you'ld want for an OT, not MT.
    Sure, it's not extremely overpowered and most guilds probably will bring the player over the buff, but I'll put money on cutting-edge progression guilds seriously taking this into consideration.
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  15. #55
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    Originally Posted by Nethaera (Source)
    As the release of World of Warcraft: Cataclysm draws near, we continue to fine-tune various class abilities. Based on feedback and our own testing, we're in the process of assessing and amending tanking cooldowns -- at level 85 in particular. Some of these abilities, like druid Savage Defense and death knight self healing, are particularly difficult to model, so further testing will be necessary before there is sufficient information to base adjustments on.

    In the case of paladins and warriors, we have recognized that it is possible for block chance to get too high too quickly and cause a situation where stacked mastery and the warrior Shield Block ability behave strangely. Since that's a scenario we want to avoid, we're making some changes regarding how block chance is handled for each of these classes:

    Paladins - Holy Shield will be changed to increase block value by 10% (40% total) instead of increasing block chance by 15%. Since this will cause Mastery to become more valuable, the amount of block granted by Mastery will be reduced to 2.25% block chance per point of Mastery, down from 3%.

    Warriors - At level 85, the value of Shield Block decreases as block value generated by Mastery increases. To remedy this, we will convert overflow of block + avoidance that exceeds 100% into critical block chance instead. Along with that change, Shield Block will be reduced to +25% block chance (down from +100%), but this will still yield a net buff for most warriors. Also in response to this change, the amount of block and critical block provided by Mastery will be equalized. Finally, Mastery will now grant 1.5% block chance per point.


    12.49 dodge
    12.33 parry
    40.53 block
    +1666 mastery (+9.25) @+21% block, 43% crit block.

    ->

    12.49 dodge
    12.33 parry
    45.41 block
    +1666 mastery (+9.25) @+25.88% block, 25.88% crit block.

    With shield block the sum will be 95.23%.

    IMO this is a pretty big nerf to warriors at the current level.
    Atm in beta using shield block would give me the whole 43% chance to crit block, which actually feels like a damage mitigation cooldown. Lowering it to 26% makes it feel... weak.
    Last edited by Unix; 10-28-2010 at 01:16 PM. Reason: was mathematically challenged

  16. #56
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    Here's more information.

    Update - Here are some additional details based on the questions and feedback we're seeing:
    The new warrior Mastery is 1.5% block and 1.5% critical block per point of mastery.
    Shield Block will spill over into critical block if any portion of the 25% would have been wasted because your block + dodge + parry is so high already. If you are somehow always over 100% (which will be pretty hard now), you only get the critical block when Shield Block is up. The intent is to make sure Shield Block isn't wasted, not to make sure you have mastery coming out your ears (or any other orifice in the facial region).
    Shield Block is not intended to be a magic damage cooldown (neither is Blood Shield, which also is physical damage only). We don’t want to duplicate the exact same ability on every tank when we can avoid it. Bosses generally don’t spam out a lot of magic damage on short cooldowns. On the other hand, Shield Block has a much higher up-time than Barkskin. We still believe the Cataclysm raiding environment is going to be a lot less centered around tanks dying to spike damage than players currently experience at level 80. Mitigating a lot of damage to save healer mana can be very valuable in Cataclysm.
    Savage Defense is massively overpowered on beta and has been dealt with accordingly. Many of the reports of beta raid bosses two-shotting tanks were because that was how much damage the bosses needed to do in order to challenge Feral tanks. With less damage absorbed, the boss damage can be adjusted downwards. We've reduced the multiplier for attack power on the absorption effect (from 65% to 35%, still modified by mastery) and it no longer procs from periodic critical hits.
    Paladin tanks are not intended to go cap block as fast as they can. It’s fine if you want to do that, but we don’t treat it as “the new defense cap” and we don’t balance paladins assuming they have a 100% block chance. That is something the community identified as being not only possible, but likely, and one of the reasons we changed the way block works for paladins.
    These changes are all slated for patch 4.0.3a when the shattering of Azeroth takes place, and are not currently implemented on live realms. Some of them may be active in the beta test – the Savage Defense change for example was applied via a hotfix to the beta realms recently.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Casting Vigi on the (non-Warrior) OT does not grant you 3% damage reduction.
    Vigilance on an OT that currently isn't taking damage (think Sindy, Saurfang, ...) does not give you any Vengeance.
    Therefor, Vigilance is not so useful while MTing.
    Vigilance helps the other tank take (less) damage and it helps you do (more) damage. This is exactly what you'ld want for an OT, not MT.
    Sure, it's not extremely overpowered and most guilds probably will bring the player over the buff, but I'll put money on cutting-edge progression guilds seriously taking this into consideration.
    For every Sindy and Saurafang there are just as many Marrowfangs and BloodQueens. Premo will not be parking Xav, Ensidia (or whatever they'll inevitably call themselves in Cata) won't be parking Kungen. If it even looks like that will happen Blizz will respond to change the ability.

  18. #58
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    They just announced today that vigilance doesn't give the 3% damage reduction any more.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    If it even looks like that will happen Blizz will respond to change the ability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzard
    Vigilance -- No longer reduces damage by 3%, but will still reset Taunt cooldown and provide Vengeance for the warrior.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Protection Warrior Spreadsheet

  20. #60
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    It still doesn't sound as if they have addressed the two-roll problem and, if they is the case, it seems that they have only made the scaling problems worse by allowing Shield Block to 'spill over' into a two-roll situation.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

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