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Thread: defence support thresholds

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Not sure the basis of these numbers. WowWiki's article on defense covers this, and 1.62 Miss rating with 0.6% block sticks out like a sore thumb. Every defense SKILL grants 0.25% chance to be dodge, parry, block and chance to be missed (before Diminishing returns, mind you), and 4.92 Defense rating grants 1 defense skill. To get 1.62% chance to be missed (ignoring DR, which is inherently wrong) means (1.62 / .25)*4.92 = about 32 defense rating (probably more with DR). Block does not suffer DR but increases by the exact same amount for the same amount of defense rating, and if you had 1.62 chance to miss you would expect to see 1.62% or more extra block.

    Something be fishy here.

    Armor is on DR right from the very first point of armor (remember the grey cloth pants you picked up in goldshire/barrens? Yeah, right there). It's capped at 75% damage reduction, which is in the neighbourhood of 49,905 armor @ level 80 against level 83 mobs. Good luck hitting that passively, my friend.



    Thanks petninja. to the rest, let's not drag up Crushing Blows, it's been relegated to the past.
    my total addition od def was 75..

    i think the DR concernes were adressed right b4 I posted this. as for armor, you said " expontional curve". its not an expontional curve, expontional growth means that the growing quantity is increasing stedily by a fixed fraction, and that fraction must be a constent. armor is subject to a DR, the the fraction is not a constent. the rate or growth on armor, or the fraction or damage reduced point per point, looses steem at most drasticly after 30k... i could be wrong, this was as of the first icc patch.
    Last edited by praetoria; 08-16-2010 at 01:02 PM.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    on thing you lost me on : armors DR... dosnt returns start to deminish around 30k armor??
    This is a major hangup for people. Armor does have DRs, but they don't make armor worth less than the previous armor applied earlier.

    Basically at 25k armor you reduce ~60% incoming damage, so a 100k base swing becomes 40k.
    at 30k armor you reduce ~64% incoming damage which reduces the previous final swing by 10% to 36k damage. Likewise another 5k armor would give you ~67.6% reduction for another 10% off the previous swing. It's the same reason DRs were given to avoidance. Going from 98% dodge to 99% dodge reduced the incoming damage in half for the cost of 1% dodge. DRs make the gains more even, no matter where you are with the ratings.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    on thing you lost me on : armors DR... dosnt returns start to deminish around 30k armor??
    On the rest, I don't think you're factoring in DR. Maybe with socket bonuses the loss was only 70, was that what you were getting at? AFIK, it's still 80 dodge, pre-dimishing returns, which means at ICC gear levels it will be a noticable bit more than 80 dodge rating for 1% dodge reduction.

    As to the quoted part... The mount of DR each additional point of armor returns is smaller, but since it's being factored over all your stamina, the return is still very valuable for EH. The result is a basic linear value (with some small fluxuation) for armor. Each 500 points of armor, even though there is less DR % than the last will still result in the same EH gain.

    http://rehfeld.us/wow/damage-reducti...83&armor=35000

    35k = 67.783% DR. So for 50000 HP that's 50,000 * (1/(1-.67783)) = 155197.6 EH
    35.5k = 68.092% DR. 50,000 * (1/1-.68092)) = 156700.5
    36k = 68.396% DR. 50,000 * (1/1-.68092)) = 158207.8

    So the first 500 armor gave .309% more damage reduction and 1502.947 EH
    The next 500 armor gave .304% more damage reduction (less provided than the previous 500) and 1507.308 EH (more more provided than the previous 500)

    So using the same increase in armor you see less pure damage reduction % but a bigger EH gain. This fluxuates I believe, I'm not sure it always comes out this way, but it's on the even or better side IIRC.

    This is all in Aggy's post. He does a great job explaining it. My ability to explain is like the idiot writing the dummy guide. It really explains why armor is king. Stamina is queen. And Defense/Dodge/Parry which are subject to diminishing returns (you need more rating for each additional point) are great if they're not at the cost of Armor/Sta.


    ****

    If you need threat, I'd suggest finding a fast DPS 1-Hander (something with a higher DPS than yours, which are easier to get, H Lootship is a great one) or a PvP fast 1 hander, I think there's a 1.7 PvP sword or axe out there (apparently the dagger is really bad though), and make sure your raid is helping you with threat first.

    What is your raid's higher DPS producers? I'm still in mostly 251/264 tank gear with bonebreaker and even in 25N pugs with 10k boss DPS I'm not having a problem with threat (so long as the hunters remember MD on the pull).
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    This is a major hangup for people. Armor does have DRs, but they don't make armor worth less than the previous armor applied earlier.

    Basically at 25k armor you reduce ~60% incoming damage, so a 100k base swing becomes 40k.
    at 30k armor you reduce ~64% incoming damage which reduces the previous final swing by 10% to 36k damage. Likewise another 5k armor would give you ~67.6% reduction for another 10% off the previous swing. It's the same reason DRs were given to avoidance. Going from 98% dodge to 99% dodge reduced the incoming damage in half for the cost of 1% dodge. DRs make the gains more even, no matter where you are with the ratings.
    im actually going back on some of the links you provided earlier to check the graphs. I might be off, its been a while. But i could have sworn the dr on armor lost steem after 30k. i thought the next threshold was some crazy impossible number to reach, like 50k armor

  5. #105
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    This thread is perhaps one of the most insane things I've ever read.

    Just thought I'd mention that...

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    i 2nd this post.. as far as i am aware, only dodge and parry suffer from dr while chance to be missed, as for sbr, im not even sure anymore.. un until this moment, i thought that thru def rating, it did not suffer from dr.
    Miss rate suffers from Diminishing Returns. They closed that loophole quietly when druids starting grabbing defense, I think.

    Doesn't matter where you get SBR from (or any dodge/parry/Miss). Be it gear or defense, it doesn't suffer DR under any circumstances, where as miss/dodge/parry does regardless where you get it. This isn'st going to be changed, since Defense is gonna be killed in Cataclysm, and given current content, I'm not sure you can be 102.4% unhittable with block in ICC with that debuff up.

    PS Didn't we warn you about proper spelling and grammar? Please respect our time and effort by posting coherent language, you can see we are affording you this courtesy.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Not sure the basis of these numbers. WowWiki's article on defense covers this, and 1.62 Miss rating with 0.6% block sticks out like a sore thumb. Every defense SKILL grants 0.25% chance to be dodge, parry, block and chance to be missed (before Diminishing returns, mind you), and 4.92 Defense rating grants 1 defense skill. To get 1.62% chance to be missed (ignoring DR, which is inherently wrong) means (1.62 / .25)*4.92 = about 32 defense rating (probably more with DR). Block does not suffer DR but increases by the exact same amount for the same amount of defense rating, and if you had 1.62 chance to miss you would expect to see 1.62% or more extra block.

    Something be fishy here.
    All he's saying is that by adding
    miss%- .29
    dodge%- .41
    parry%- .32
    block%- .60

    he reduces hit on the combat table by 1.62%. It makes perfect sense once I saw the Tankpoints picture.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    This thread is perhaps one of the most insane things I've ever read.

    Just thought I'd mention that...
    It's starting to make perfect sense to me, which might mean I'm going insane, or maybe we're getting to the bottom of all of this.

    Either way, I love it!

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    im actually going back on some of the links you provided earlier to check the graphs. I might be off, its been a while. But i could have sworn the dr on armor lost steem after 30k. i thought the next threshold was some crazy impossible number to reach, like 50k armor

    You seem to be having issues grasping what a DR curve looks like. Here's one:




    Shamelessly stolen from http://www.wowwiki.com/Armor . While it's for level 70, it shows what it looks like, there is no stepwise mystical stopping point, it's a smooth curve from zero to the 75% hard cap for Armor (yes, there IS a hard cap for armor, but not defense...)

    By the way, PLEASE, we are telling you, read these links, and all of it I mean. We can explain stuff you don't understand, but making us repeat what we link is not good.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    All he's saying is that by adding
    miss%- .29
    dodge%- .41
    parry%- .32
    block%- .60

    he reduces hit on the combat table by 1.62%. It makes perfect sense once I saw the Tankpoints picture.
    Except, being hit via block shouldn't be counted with the same weight. I mean, even with a lucky critical block (say, 6k), it's still trivial when taking 30-40k hits. Realistically, most people get 2-3k blocks.

    So you are back down to 1% Chance to <avoid the hit completely>, which is not to be confused with Chance to be Missed. That's at the cost of almost 1.5k health, assuming 75 Defense rating instead of Defense Skill, a significant cushion in my "crappy healer" scenario. If it was defense skill, *cringe*, that's about 7k lost health, multiplied by current armor... that'ss a lot of lost EH.

    By the way, @ the OP, is this why you are running down this road? To compensate for substandard healers? Are you trying to polish your epeen by seeing how little damage you can take? It's OK if you are, just let us know what your motivations are for this crazy discussion.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Warning: Wall o' Text. Man I haven't done this in ages. Do not operate heavy machinery after reading this post.

    I'm gonna reach back to the previous portions of the thread where things were progressing (before it fell apart again).

    -With 30% buff, we have the "luxury" of not gemming EHP, *IF* you are not progressing in content. That is to say, your gear is improving but the content challenge is static. This is moving towards overgearing your content, as mentioned earlier. And as has been stated before, your survivability is not being jeopardized at this point even if you geared for intellect/spi/whatever (Actually, as a paladin I would *LOVE* to have more intellect... but I digress anyways..).
    -If we hold on to the idea from above, and really Petninja has the only one to support this, what else can we gear for. Yeah, we could go with spirit, but it has no use. The conventional wisdom is to start focusing on threat, but the OP would like to increase avoidance. Presumably, the intent is to attempt be godly by not taking any hits. I can appreciate this, I have a twink warrior at level 70 which is exactly that, stupidly geared at level 70 with full T6 and epic WOTLK gems+Enchants for amusement purposes. The other reason, which I also employ on my warrior, is to deal with PuGs with substandard healers. And I admonish tankspotters for not keeping an open mind that we have people who want to improve but they only have access to bad healers, they can't change this, so they want to mitigate this by avoidance. Sure they can improve threat or EH , but improving threat or EH doesn't help with bad healers who can't keep you up. The people here are just too used to awesome guild healers who do their job very well and they can afford to swap in DPS gear because they do their job.

    Now then, everybody else, take a deep breath. Yes the OP is confrontational, does not read what is put under his nose, and has poor communication skills when it comes to posting on TS. Let's be positive and go with what he is saying in the most positive light.

    Let's for the moment, assume that with full 251 or 264 gear and requisite tanking skills, you have enough EH to survive anything thrown your way in Normal mode (*gasp*). I think we've all told people in one way or the other that you should have enough threat with 251 or better gear and proper misdirects, and we assume the raid comp on the 10 man includes a competent MD/TotT. What I will say is that you should have enough EH if you have the proper skills and experience from the encounter (don't stand in fire, etc.). Now here's the handicap. Your healer sucks. They're undergeared, and they do things wrong, like not landing heals at the correct time, or are going OOM because of some other deficiency. Yeah, you can direct them to Aliena's work, but let's say they are your kid nephew, you can't boot them and find a better healer. You've fixed their spec and glyphs, all that is left is skill and gear. Let's face it, not everybody can operate at world/server first skill level, people will max out at some point and that's as good as they will get, and getting to that point will take a lot of time and training. Getting better gear will help. In the meanwhile, while your raid is carrying said healer to gear them (Because really, increasing avoidance can ONLY be used for epeen shining purposes or carrying people), you'd like to do your part to compensate for their short comings.

    Gearing for threat may be a better option, provided your DPS can match they TPS increases. This has the benefit of shortening the fight time, which means less load on the healer, AND you clear content faster, helping your gearing issue (more time to do other raids, heroics for frost badges, farm gold for stuff of AH, etc.). I say this has more bang for buck than increasing avoidance, unless again, your DPS can't make use of your TPS gains.

    If the gearing for extra TPS doesn't help, and you have enough avoidance, AND your healers are sub-optimal, we are finally are where to OP can only be, and still have some shred of credibility here. And yes, I realize this is a highly circumstantial and ridiculous situation to be arguing at TankSpot, but it's plausible, and let's roll with it. The only rational for enduring this insanity, is that you HOPE the healer will improve as they get more experience under their belt, AND their gear will improve to the point where they catch up with the rest of the raid. At that point, this cherished healer you patiently carried and coddled should be able join you as you start doing hardmodes.

    In the past, tanks would just build a block set when they got to this point. Mindlessly grind a raid on farm status until the healer got better gear and skills, but I think anub25 pretty much was the last time an unhittable set was contemplated. Unless you downgear back to that point, you aren't going to get a decent unhittable block set with high SBV in ICC gear (the gear doesn't lend itself to that). If you downgear, the eventual endpoint to that argument is the "Undergeared" guild doing ICC in blues.

    So, working with ICC 10/25 gear, DUE TO THE NATURE OF THE GEAR, if you really want to carry a healer, you are better off going with armor upgrades. The OP didn't really read through the posts (especially Agg's post) which explain why we are essentially armor whores. To the OP, the following is a list of WHY, in the event we wish to carry a healer, we would gear for armor.
    1) ICC level gear is chocked full of armor, not a whole lot of avoidance. What avoidance is there, is further nerfed by the 20% dodge debuff. Assuming you stacked our ass off in avoidance, you won't reduce your damage nearly enough to make a difference, but stacking armor can get you to a point where it is significant.
    2) The Debuff, coupled with diminishing returns on avoidance, make it impossible for it to be significant. The math behind this is in Agg's post of why we gear for EH. Read the #@$! post please. Yes it's long, but we have all read it, this is why we can speak with certainty. Hell, I'm pretty sure Agg would love to throttle me personally for arguing mercilessly with him on some points, but he's still essentially correct.
    3) If you REALLY want to help healer, the real lesson to tanks in the WHOLE of WotLK is proper use of tank cooldowns. No amount of gear can compare to the gains from full use of cooldowns. If you can tell me, you used every god damned mitigation CD to its fullest extent that your class offered consistently throughout a raod(and boy you better be on your freaking game if you are a warrior, you got a bazillion of them), this will exceed any possible gains through gemming/enchanting, by a huge mile. Post some logs of your tanking, and guaranteed we can find gaps in defensive cooldown usage where you could have optimized it.
    The other approach is to basically roll a class with more passive mechanisms, namely paladins, bears and Blood DKs. I will submit a Warrior with 100% optimal CD usage will outperform a passive tank by a longshot, but the fact of the matter is, even Xav is not 100% robotically precise, he's probably 95% efficient (and he's probably DPSing his ass off the other 4.9% of the time, backed by solid healers). He's a skilled tank, not merely average.

    Finally, I can say that yeah, I have heard of Whitetooth. To the other tankspotters, he did a lot of pioneering work over in EJ to figure out the combat table, in the TBC end days/ Early WotLK. AFAIK, he's dropped off the scene a long time ago, things have changed alot, and TANKSPOTTTERs, have carried on the good work he did and updated it, mainly from the tanking standpoint. WowWiki talks about Whitetooth's work.
    To the OP, quoting whitetooth is leading people astray. People here don't remember whitetooth because much of his work has basically become common knowledge and required forehand knowledge to post here, even if some don't know where it came from. It's like quoting Darwin's work when arguing the effects of Global Warming on the eco system, or Newton's work in physics when discussing Steven Hawking's ideas.
    a very small side of me wants to hit the berserker rage button,simply because i think *ducks* hes making fun of me. the rest of me, the more logical and rational part, drops to one knee and removes my helm. pretty much the most complete and attention holding post ive ever read. borderline publishable work.

    So the end result is... though i may have been a avoidence junky at heart, its not completly my lask of understanding of machanics or avoidence, but aparently, my armor comprehension is in the toilet. back to the forums linked by ninja it appears. thank you again

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    You seem to be having issues grasping what a DR curve looks like. Here's one:




    Shamelessly stolen from http://www.wowwiki.com/Armor . While it's for level 70, it shows what it looks like, there is no stepwise mystical stopping point, it's a smooth curve from zero to the 75% hard cap for Armor (yes, there IS a hard cap for armor, but not defense...)

    By the way, PLEASE, we are telling you, read these links, and all of it I mean. We can explain stuff you don't understand, but making us repeat what we link is not good.
    as you said this is a lvl 70 graph, i would say looking at this the same as what i said previosly, the curve looses a LOT of steem once 20k armor is reached

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    as you said this is a lvl 70 graph, i would say looking at this the same as what i said previosly, the curve looses a LOT of steem once 20k armor is reached

    But the impact is the same or better, even at these 'diminishing returns'


    http://rehfeld.us/wow/damage-reducti...83&armor=35000

    35k = 67.783% DR. So for 50000 HP that's 50,000 * (1/(1-.67783)) = 155197.6 EH
    35.5k = 68.092% DR. 50,000 * (1/1-.68092)) = 156700.5
    36k = 68.396% DR. 50,000 * (1/1-.68092)) = 158207.8

    So the first 500 armor gave .309% more damage reduction and 1502.947 EH
    The next 500 armor gave .304% more damage reduction (less provided than the previous 500) and 1507.308 EH (more more provided than the previous 500)

    So using the same increase in armor you see less pure damage reduction % but a bigger EH gain. This fluxuates I believe, I'm not sure it always comes out this way, but it's on the even or better side IIRC.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    a very small side of me wants to hit the berserker rage button,simply because i think *ducks* hes making fun of me. the rest of me, the more logical and rational part, drops to one knee and removes my helm. pretty much the most complete and attention holding post ive ever read. borderline publishable work.
    I was trying to be positive here, not sarcastic. And I wouldn't publish this, because it lacks any real math, only a "Quick and Diry guide" to better posts (namely, Agg). Credit where it is due.

    As for avoidance junkie, welcome to the club. I was one too, and you just have to make the journey like we all did. Glad you made it. Now you can appreciate Agg's work.

    You can pick up your non-descript hooded white robes, forms to release all your worldly possessions to tankspot.com, and the KoolAid at the Kiosk just over there. *points yonder*

    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    as you said this is a lvl 70 graph, i would say looking at this the same as what i said previosly, the curve looses a LOT of steem once 20k armor is reached
    Gah. And we were doing so well. It's all in your head! THE WORLD IS ROUND, NOT FLAT.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Except, being hit via block shouldn't be counted with the same weight. I mean, even with a lucky critical block (say, 6k), it's still trivial when taking 30-40k hits. Realistically, most people get 2-3k blocks.
    There was no weight being applied. It was just a representation of the combat table, and the changes wrought by moving stats around. There may have been some misunderstandings on the OPs part (or ours) as to what the hit was on the table, but I think those are smoothed out by now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Except, being hit via block shouldn't be counted with the same weight. I mean, even with a lucky critical block (say, 6k), it's still trivial when taking 30-40k hits. Realistically, most people get 2-3k blocks.

    So you are back down to 1% Chance to <avoid the hit completely>, which is not to be confused with Chance to be Missed. That's at the cost of almost 1.5k health, assuming 75 Defense rating instead of Defense Skill, a significant cushion in my "crappy healer" scenario. If it was defense skill, *cringe*, that's about 7k lost health, multiplied by current armor... that'ss a lot of lost EH.

    By the way, @ the OP, is this why you are running down this road? To compensate for substandard healers? Are you trying to polish your epeen by seeing how little damage you can take? It's OK if you are, just let us know what your motivations are for this crazy discussion.

    i hope no one from my realm is reading this, or the guilds ive applied to, but ive been doing a lot of puggin latly to get experience under my belt. and i can say the the pug healers are not nearly as tallented as my guildies.( my guild which i was the gm of for over a year fell appart because we couldnt fill spots on raid teams.. after going thru about 50 applicants being bad, not showing up for raids, exct., we desided to stop raiding as a guild and look for somthing already developed. breaks my hear actually.) reguasrdless of gear, or how much they raid.

    the otehr part is, its a real blame game in said pugs.. tanks are so easy to blame because we are so outnumbered in the raid. we have a paladin that used a dam dps trinket to hold aggro. the dps are that reckless. my silent goal is to become less raid relient. so when ppl start nerdraging i can just say nothing in vent and be ignored.the catch 22 is when i apply to a guild, the see my armory with strentgh jems, differnt glyphs, or ANYTHING not conventional. they are very crutial of it, its a major turn off. ive applied to 10 guilds. 4 accepted, 3 said no. and 3 im still wating on. Any tank officer of a guild is going to take the oppertunity to nerd rage me at the sight of any unconventional placment without giving me a chance to explain. that is the insporation of this post.. i was very pissed at some of the rude remards made on my application, and i had zero oppertunity to explain myself. granted the guilds were far beyond my progression and probily have to deal with a lot of bad applicants. But i ahd zero oppertunity to explain what was actually going on.

    I greatly appreciate the efforts of everyone here. I guess the cause behind this stroke of insanity was I must have thought late that night at 3 am that if i can inspire tankspot, i could inspire a movment in the entire wow mentality. this is what happens when you regulary charge into a fight outnumberd screaming ur head off in a flame of rage.. and never die
    Last edited by praetoria; 08-16-2010 at 01:46 PM.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    I was trying to be positive here, not sarcastic. And I wouldn't publish this, because it lacks any real math, only a "Quick and Diry guide" to better posts (namely, Agg). Credit where it is due.

    As for avoidance junkie, welcome to the club. I was one too, and you just have to make the journey like we all did. Glad you made it. Now you can appreciate Agg's work.

    You can pick up your non-descript hooded white robes, forms to release all your worldly possessions to tankspot.com, and the KoolAid at the Kiosk just over there. *points yonder*



    Gah. And we were doing so well. It's all in your head! THE WORLD IS ROUND, NOT FLAT.

    lol.. no no.. i didnt actually want to pop beserker rage.. i too was joking.. really great peace there imo.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    But the impact is the same or better, even at these 'diminishing returns'


    http://rehfeld.us/wow/damage-reducti...83&armor=35000

    35k = 67.783% DR. So for 50000 HP that's 50,000 * (1/(1-.67783)) = 155197.6 EH
    35.5k = 68.092% DR. 50,000 * (1/1-.68092)) = 156700.5
    36k = 68.396% DR. 50,000 * (1/1-.68092)) = 158207.8

    So the first 500 armor gave .309% more damage reduction and 1502.947 EH
    The next 500 armor gave .304% more damage reduction (less provided than the previous 500) and 1507.308 EH (more more provided than the previous 500)

    So using the same increase in armor you see less pure damage reduction % but a bigger EH gain. This fluxuates I believe, I'm not sure it always comes out this way, but it's on the even or better side IIRC.
    this was beyond me.. thanks for pointing it out.. im still trying to rap my head around it, but tis starting to make sence as i go threw both this forums and the linked forums line by line

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    If you could rephrase your original post after going through this thread and applying what you've learned would you, and if yes what would it look like? I'm kind of curious to see what it would look like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    If you could rephrase your original post after going through this thread and applying what you've learned would you, and if yes what would it look like? I'm kind of curious to see what it would look like.
    emotionally unstable tank suffering from sleep deporvation l.f vent after epic guild application denial

    or maybe

    becomming less raid dependent


    or


    a tribune to insanity 1000 player ( i think we have hit 1000 views)

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