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Thread: defence support thresholds

  1. #41
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    EHP vs avoidance discussion should be dead already. We gear for EHP to take the hits that are NOT avoided. Our healers also follow this for healing. Healers do NOT wait for you to take a hit they just spam heals on you. It's the way things work right now.
    Having said that i'd like to offer you a challenge. Gather your healers and tell them to only heal you when you need it because you are going to be gemming nothing but avoidance. If they are crazy enough to agree, go tank a a hard hitting boss like festergut in 25man. make sure that the amount that the healers healed you was as close to the amount of damage you took. Just about ANY tank here worth anything will pretty much guarantee that your survival will be in serious jeopardy.
    Now if you just want to get farm bosses down faster, that i completely understandable. On tank tank swaping boss simply trade a tank for a dps. I.E. marrowgar use 2 well geared tanks gearing for EH; dreamwalker: have the dps get down the adds faster and have the rogues and hunters MD/ ToT the aboms to you.
    As the above poster stated please use spell checker and proper grammer. It makes a big difference on your credibility.
    In closing EHP has been proven to be the best by far.
    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...king-mechanics) Please read this thread.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    my major problem is i WANT and need to work on other aspects of tanking.. threat being top priority. but i cant, because im expected to stack stam. the minute i do somthing else, my chances of getting into a good group rapidly deminish
    If you're having problems with threat check your "rotation". No amount of hit, expertise, strength is going to help more than a proper rotation, spec and proper MD's and ToT's will.

    All aspects of gemming for avoidance and "gemming for threat" have been covered in these forums by some of the best and brightest people.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglie View Post
    EHP vs avoidance discussion should be dead already. We gear for EHP to take the hits that are NOT avoided. Our healers also follow this for healing. Healers do NOT wait for you to take a hit they just spam heals on you. It's the way things work right now.
    Having said that i'd like to offer you a challenge. Gather your healers and tell them to only heal you when you need it because you are going to be gemming nothing but avoidance. If they are crazy enough to agree, go tank a a hard hitting boss like festergut in 25man. make sure that the amount that the healers healed you was as close to the amount of damage you took. Just about ANY tank here worth anything will pretty much guarantee that your survival will be in serious jeopardy.
    Actually, I think that's taking things a bit more extreme than what he's actually suggesting. After following and going through the conversation a couple of times what I can see is that he's basically saying "Right now I have more EHP than I need for the encounter, so I'd like to throw a few gems in to help with something else." He's not advocating a complete regearing away from EHP, but from his point of view he has 30% more stamina than he should have just from the buff, so some of that can be used to improve other areas he may be weak on. I don't get any of the defense stuff mentioned at the start, aside from it being avoidance, but I can kind of see where he could logically be doing the right thing based on his group makeup. Just as he was criticized for using be.imba.hu, as it only gives a broad generalization and isn't good for hardcore progression, criticizing him for alternative methods when we don't know his raid makeup is also probably unfair. This is especially true once we get down to the point that he does have at least a basic understanding of why EH is good. He just feels that for the current content he's overgearing it enough to justify dropping some stam for threat or something else.

  4. #44
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    You're right, at the 30% buff most of ICC is quite easy for some people, and it's pushed HP humbers to huge totals, making it "less necessary" to stack stam for some encounters. However, rather than regemming tank gear for strength, you could always substitute some DPS gear or trinkets if you're looking for a DPS/threat boost. You'll still want that tank gear gemmed up for stam when it comes to a progression fight, which is any encounter that your raid hasn't killed or has trouble with. Unless you've killed HM LK on 25 man, there are still difficult encounters left in the game for you, and gemming/gearing/enchnating for strength, defense, or avoidace will be less than optimal for these encounters.

    Your "seat of the pants" observations about an endless rage flask having any noticeable effect on your threat is purely placebo effect. Yes, numerically it would have made a small difference, but nothing on the order of anything more than 1 or 2%. Even with the 30% buff to dps, which effects tank damage too, therefore also boosting tank threat by 30%, threat should not be any issue for a tank past the first few seconds of a pull. In those first few seconds if a DPS gets a crit streak while one or more of your attacks is parried/dodged or misses, there is a chance that dps will overtake you. We can make up for this in one of two ways, either have a hunter or rogue use their threat redirection abilites at the start, or have your DPS wait 5-10 seconds before starting to deal damage. The sustained TPS of a tank fully set up for EH and executing a good rotation is going to be higher than the sustained TPS of any dps who is making intelligent use of their threat reduction cooldowns. Assuming roughly equal levels of gear between the tank and dps, If threat is an issue it is due to a poorly executed rotation, not due to a lack of hit, expertise, or strength.

    Now, if you outgear a "farm" encounter, wear whatever you like. I'm tanking many HM 10 and few HM 25s with some ret gear. Not because it's needed for threat, I'd be miles ahead anyway, I do it to increase my personal dps for something fun to do. However, when we get to encounters my raid still finds somewhat difficult like sindy or putricide on 25HM, I'm going to throw my proper tanking gear on, all gemmed and enchanted for EH. Our "progression" at this point is 25 man HM LK. Sure this boss has been killed long ago by "better" raids, some even with the buff turned off, but that doesn't mean it's not difficult for my raid. Given that LK can hit for 40K at the later stages of phase 1, stacking EH (stam and armor) is the only way to survive not being two-shot. There isn't enough avoidance stats available through gear, gems or enchants to get anwhere close to enough avoidance to remove the chances of multple hits in a row, nevemind trying to gear to make two in a row impossible.

    Your initial post was very confrontational, some of your wording was confusing, leading to some being unsure of what you're trying to get at. I think we see now that you're basically saying "if I'm not worried abou dying why do I keep stacking stam, and why does the community keep telling tanks to stack stam". You have to realize that not every raid is your raid. Many people play this game at many skill levels. Even at a 30% buff, normal modes are challenging for some players/raids. When a "new" tank comes here and asks for advice because he's dying on Marrowgar, we're going to tell him how to gear for EH. Should it be necessary? No, but for his raid it may be. Guides written and advice given here are always with the assumption that the tank asking for advice or doing the research is having a problem with survivability, because they probably wouldn't be here looking/asking if they were facerolling their way through ICC. If you are clearing ICC with ease and your survival is never at issue, well that's good for you, gem and enchant how you like. For everyone else that comes here because they were dying to X boss while gemming for parry/dodge, and enchanting for defense when they're already well past uncrittable, we're going to educate them on the benefits of gearing for EH.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglie View Post
    EHP vs avoidance discussion should be dead already. We gear for EHP to take the hits that are NOT avoided. Our healers also follow this for healing. Healers do NOT wait for you to take a hit they just spam heals on you. It's the way things work right now.
    Having said that i'd like to offer you a challenge. Gather your healers and tell them to only heal you when you need it because you are going to be gemming nothing but avoidance. If they are crazy enough to agree, go tank a a hard hitting boss like festergut in 25man. make sure that the amount that the healers healed you was as close to the amount of damage you took. Just about ANY tank here worth anything will pretty much guarantee that your survival will be in serious jeopardy.
    Now if you just want to get farm bosses down faster, that i completely understandable. On tank tank swaping boss simply trade a tank for a dps. I.E. marrowgar use 2 well geared tanks gearing for EH; dreamwalker: have the dps get down the adds faster and have the rogues and hunters MD/ ToT the aboms to you.
    As the above poster stated please use spell checker and proper grammer. It makes a big difference on your credibility.
    In closing EHP has been proven to be the best by far.
    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...king-mechanics) Please read this thread.

    this has almost nothing to do with the thread

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglie View Post
    If you're having problems with threat check your "rotation". No amount of hit, expertise, strength is going to help more than a proper rotation, spec and proper MD's and ToT's will.

    All aspects of gemming for avoidance and "gemming for threat" have been covered in these forums by some of the best and brightest people.

    this is wrong.. i agree on hit and expertise to a degree.. but with a 30% buff, where dps can hit 17k on some fights, and 60k on trash, shield block value for a warrior, or str, or even crit gives a much greater advantage then an additional 15 stam.

    as for your saying all aspects of jemming ahve been covered.. show me 1 forum that someone like whitetooth is discussing avoidance or threat post a 25% buff..

    you cant compare icc with zero buff, and icc with a 30% buff thought the machaniccs are the same and the fights are challanging, its a completly different raid demographic.

  7. #47
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    I move to suggest that if threat is an issue it's because you don't have a rogue or hunter and your dps does a ton of damage. Also I suspect that a Flask of Endless Rage would make a pretty big effect on your threat, about as much as gaining 90 strength would.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    this is wrong.. i agree on hit and expertise to a degree.. but with a 30% buff, where dps can hit 17k on some fights, and 60k on trash, shield block value for a warrior, or str, or even crit gives a much greater advantage then an additional 15 stam.

    as for your saying all aspects of jemming ahve been covered.. show me 1 forum that someone like whitetooth is discussing avoidance or threat post a 25% buff..

    you cant compare icc with zero buff, and icc with a 30% buff thought the machaniccs are the same and the fights are challanging, its a completly different raid demographic.
    Well... it is a static multiplier for everyone, so you're getting a 30% damage increase too which should be pretty close to a 30% threat boost except that Blizzard puts stupid static threat values on things.


    Edit: I'm pretty sure just about everyone who has ever said "threat is a non issue" has been a person with a rogue in their raid comp. You probably have one too, and if you are having threat problems they probably suck at being a rogue. If you don't that's why you're probably seeing the threat problem that most people don't see.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akeber View Post
    You're right, at the 30% buff most of ICC is quite easy for some people, and it's pushed HP humbers to huge totals, making it "less necessary" to stack stam for some encounters. However, rather than regemming tank gear for strength, you could always substitute some DPS gear or trinkets if you're looking for a DPS/threat boost. You'll still want that tank gear gemmed up for stam when it comes to a progression fight, which is any encounter that your raid hasn't killed or has trouble with. Unless you've killed HM LK on 25 man, there are still difficult encounters left in the game for you, and gemming/gearing/enchnating for strength, defense, or avoidace will be less than optimal for these encounters.


    Your "seat of the pants" observations about an endless rage flask having any noticeable effect on your threat is purely placebo effect. Yes, numerically it would have made a small difference, but nothing on the order of anything more than 1 or 2%. Even with the 30% buff to dps, which effects tank damage too, therefore also boosting tank threat by 30%, threat should not be any issue for a tank past the first few seconds of a pull. In those first few seconds if a DPS gets a crit streak while one or more of your attacks is parried/dodged or misses, there is a chance that dps will overtake you. We can make up for this in one of two ways, either have a hunter or rogue use their threat redirection abilites at the start, or have your DPS wait 5-10 seconds before starting to deal damage. The sustained TPS of a tank fully set up for EH and executing a good rotation is going to be higher than the sustained TPS of any dps who is making intelligent use of their threat reduction cooldowns. Assuming roughly equal levels of gear between the tank and dps, If threat is an issue it is due to a poorly executed rotation, not due to a lack of hit, expertise, or strength.

    Now, if you outgear a "farm" encounter, wear whatever you like. I'm tanking many HM 10 and few HM 25s with some ret gear. Not because it's needed for threat, I'd be miles ahead anyway, I do it to increase my personal dps for something fun to do. However, when we get to encounters my raid still finds somewhat difficult like sindy or putricide on 25HM, I'm going to throw my proper tanking gear on, all gemmed and enchanted for EH. Our "progression" at this point is 25 man HM LK. Sure this boss has been killed long ago by "better" raids, some even with the buff turned off, but that doesn't mean it's not difficult for my raid. Given that LK can hit for 40K at the later stages of phase 1, stacking EH (stam and armor) is the only way to survive not being two-shot. There isn't enough avoidance stats available through gear, gems or enchants to get anwhere close to enough avoidance to remove the chances of multple hits in a row, nevemind trying to gear to make two in a row impossible.

    Your initial post was very confrontational, some of your wording was confusing, leading to some being unsure of what you're trying to get at. I think we see now that you're basically saying "if I'm not worried abou dying why do I keep stacking stam, and why does the community keep telling tanks to stack stam". You have to realize that not every raid is your raid. Many people play this game at many skill levels. Even at a 30% buff, normal modes are challenging for some players/raids. When a "new" tank comes here and asks for advice because he's dying on Marrowgar, we're going to tell him how to gear for EH. Should it be necessary? No, but for his raid it may be. Guides written and advice given here are always with the assumption that the tank asking for advice or doing the research is having a problem with survivability, because they probably wouldn't be here looking/asking if they were facerolling their way through ICC. If you are clearing ICC with ease and your survival is never at issue, well that's good for you, gem and enchant how you like. For everyone else that comes here because they were dying to X boss while gemming for parry/dodge, and enchanting for defense when they're already well past uncrittable, we're going to educate them on the benefits of gearing for EH.


    this was a great post.. thankyou..

    Im pretty sure the effect of the rage flask wasnt a placebo effect. you mention your a paladin. I dont need to go into the differences between spell threat and phyisical threat, but every threat gen ability i use is based on attackpower and scales even more so if I crit. with the way str and ap scale for prot warriors, I belive if you plug in the addition to one of the spreadsheets linked previously on this thread, you will see where im comming from. If i didnt have rage flask, tricks, misdirects, or vigilence, theres a good chance i would have lost aggro to a 15k dk on the surfang fight. Also, my rotation is exactly as directed by one of the spreedsheets here on tankspot, and I can say with confidence that i nail it all every fight. As someone who is team orriented, id much rather see tricks or histeria or any raid support possible go to someone other then myself for the sake of holding aggro. Personally, id like to be less raid dependent when it comes to aggro situations.

    I sapose at the time i posted this thread, i was pretty upset. because though i can have this conversations here and make some sort of progress, that is not always the case in the general wow community. probily due in part to the fact that conversations like this rarly take place.

    for the people reading this forum that really do put a LOT of time into providing us all with the finest information the game can offer, I wonder if it would be to much to ask for an updated review of icc conditions? Personally, id like to have a well "ballanced" tank set where my avoidence is inline with taking advantage of optimum deminishing returns, maxiumize threat output, and keep ehp within acceptable boundries by even the most avid ehp supporters. I think I might even make the attempt at doing so. This in my oppinion is a far more respectable approach then swaping in dps trinkets on a 25 bloodqueen fight
    Last edited by praetoria; 08-15-2010 at 10:22 AM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    Well... it is a static multiplier for everyone, so you're getting a 30% damage increase too which should be pretty close to a 30% threat boost except that Blizzard puts stupid static threat values on things.


    Edit: I'm pretty sure just about everyone who has ever said "threat is a non issue" has been a person with a rogue in their raid comp. You probably have one too, and if you are having threat problems they probably suck at being a rogue. If you don't that's why you're probably seeing the threat problem that most people don't see.

    very possible... But at the same time, the top raid guilds I know of have dps hitting wild numbers when the right dps are getting full raid support instead of the tank. granted, in Hi threat situations, dk and paladin tanks are most often used but as a warrior im compeating with them if i want a spot on a solid raid team

  11. #51
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    I am used to 25man HM ICC and our tank gets exactly 1 MD at the start and has to do it with his Vigilance. Considering he is using a non-optimal threat rotation, the only person topping that is our Fury Warrior with Shadowmourne (spamming Heroic Strike for the DPS ofc).
    Threat should not be an issue if you can useyour abilities correctly and DPS have a brain they use (other than for pressing 3 buttons over and over and over again)
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    You won't see an updated guide for 30% buff because it's just a static multiplier to everything. For a progression oriented guild stam is still the way to go. Avoidance is still good, and doing more threat is still good, but from a healer perspective it's just way easier on them if you have as big of a health pool as you can. Tricks was designed for tanks. It's nice to have the rogues doing a little tricks triangle for their dps increase, but it's not as valuable as the increase to threat that you get from it. Now, once you are well ahead of everyone (which is probably just one tricks cooldown if you have 2 rogues) they should be able to tricks each other just fine for probably most of the fight.

    Keep in mind that a rogue that is doing 15k dps only actually sees about 500dps increased because of the uptime of tricks. If the warlock/mage/rogue/dpswarrior/anythingdps has to pause for a moment even because he's worried about pulling threat you just lost way more raid dps than you'd have gained by tricksing the other dps.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    I am used to 25man HM ICC and our tank gets exactly 1 MD at the start and has to do it with his Vigilance. Considering he is using a non-optimal threat rotation, the only person topping that is our Fury Warrior with Shadowmourne (spamming Heroic Strike for the DPS ofc).
    Threat should not be an issue if you can useyour abilities correctly and DPS have a brain they use (other than for pressing 3 buttons over and over and over again)

    I belive everything your saying about your raid group, but in the same token we have had 2 or 3 ppl here say threat is the most common concern in current icc content. Again, i use the exact rotation suggested on one of the spreadsheets linked previously in this forum and im not sloppy with it.

    I ran 25 yesterday with several hm's, and even teh paladin had to use a dps trinket on several fights. So i have to suggest that what your saying is generally inncorrect. Unless your tanks are getting more raid support then mentioned, which then the story holds up, but then also your missing the point of the thread at this point

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    You won't see an updated guide for 30% buff because it's just a static multiplier to everything. For a progression oriented guild stam is still the way to go. Avoidance is still good, and doing more threat is still good, but from a healer perspective it's just way easier on them if you have as big of a health pool as you can. Tricks was designed for tanks. It's nice to have the rogues doing a little tricks triangle for their dps increase, but it's not as valuable as the increase to threat that you get from it. Now, once you are well ahead of everyone (which is probably just one tricks cooldown if you have 2 rogues) they should be able to tricks each other just fine for probably most of the fight.

    Keep in mind that a rogue that is doing 15k dps only actually sees about 500dps increased because of the uptime of tricks. If the warlock/mage/rogue/dpswarrior/anythingdps has to pause for a moment even because he's worried about pulling threat you just lost way more raid dps than you'd have gained by tricksing the other dps.


    indeed

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    very possible... But at the same time, the top raid guilds I know of have dps hitting wild numbers when the right dps are getting full raid support instead of the tank. granted, in Hi threat situations, dk and paladin tanks are most often used but as a warrior im compeating with them if i want a spot on a solid raid team
    Warriors are doing stronger single target threat than Paladins right now IIRC. You should have no problem competing with them. When it comes down to it though, your raid is different from someone else's, and you have to adjust to the circumstances. There's no way I could even begin to understand why threat might be an issue until I saw at least a WoL post and an armory link.

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    granted, in Hi threat situations, dk and paladin tanks are most often used but as a warrior im compeating with them if i want a spot on a solid raid team
    I don't think so. I run 4 different gear sets right now, one being a trash threat set. It makes a difference simply because I can hit harder while changing targets. I can hold my targets off of fury warriors and paladins without issue.

    Single target- nobody can touch my threat in my survival gear. It's all about knowing your rotation, how much threat your abilities do, and who needs vigilance.

    If you don't have multiple gear sets in ICC, you aren't maximizing your threat/survivability. Some fights favour certain gear sets, and trash needs a threat set, especially when your DPS are hitting crazy numbers. This point has been beaten to death and is generally agreed on.

    EH is the way to gear for progression content (content you have not done before), that is really all there is to say about it. Farm content you can gear however you want.

    One thing I see is that you referred to a 'hard cap' for defence at 102.4% avoidance (which is NOT a hardcap). This is unattainable with current gear in ICC due to the Chill of the Throne debuff. It is not a hardcap, and requires an understanding of the combat table to know exactly what it means and how you gear for it. To get to 102.4% avoidance, you do not stack defense only, it is a very specific gear set, and a list of the pieces required can be found on the site.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    I don't think so. I run 4 different gear sets right now, one being a trash threat set. It makes a difference simply because I can hit harder while changing targets. I can hold my targets off of fury warriors and paladins without issue.

    Single target- nobody can touch my threat in my survival gear. It's all about knowing your rotation, how much threat your abilities do, and who needs vigilance.

    If you don't have multiple gear sets in ICC, you aren't maximizing your threat/survivability. Some fights favour certain gear sets, and trash needs a threat set, especially when your DPS are hitting crazy numbers. This point has been beaten to death and is generally agreed on.

    EH is the way to gear for progression content (content you have not done before), that is really all there is to say about it. Farm content you can gear however you want.

    One thing I see is that you referred to a 'hard cap' for defence at 102.4% avoidance (which is NOT a hardcap). This is unattainable with current gear in ICC due to the Chill of the Throne debuff. It is not a hardcap, and requires an understanding of the combat table to know exactly what it means and how you gear for it. To get to 102.4% avoidance, you do not stack defense only, it is a very specific gear set, and a list of the pieces required can be found on the site.


    as for a trash set, i ahve one too.. very effective.. i pull 5-7k in heroic dungons and a little more on icc trash ( in multi target situations)

    as for no one touching your threat in survival gear, I havent heard of warriors being in such command of threat since toc patch. I know my abilities. i use the standard rotations. i use vigilance. I would like a paladin or dk tank to link they're toon and confirm this. its the first im hearing of it, and other then hear on tankspot, no one i know in game between both servers i play in has ever suggested a warrior tops a dk on single target tps. maybe, just maybe a paladin if they are bad and your in a threat race for aggro for a sustained period of time without using taunts. but most situations dont allow for a threat fight to last that long.

    as for the hard cap as it is most often refered to, Im aware of the icc debuff, but i didnt even know it was achivable with any gear set.. id like to see the set your refering to. spicificly, i was quoting that 102.4 % as a reference to give a better idea of what i was talking about. furthermore, I started this thread questioning the lack of use of support thresholds between the 540 soft cap, and the 102.4% cap. I never said hard cap was possible, i honestly had no idea it was. if i did i would have used that in the argurment of avoid vs ehp months ago. (LOL) I did make a reference for example to 9% miss. (or hit, which ever term u prefer) and could not understand why this isnt activly used as a benchmark given the current gear most tanks have axcess to

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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    (LOL) I did make a reference for example to 9% miss. (or hit, which ever term u prefer) and could not understand why this isnt activly used as a benchmark given the current gear most tanks have axcess to
    Please elaborate this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedda View Post
    Please elaborate this.

    combat table : reduced hit chance by 9% (after soft cap). so roughly hit hance of 24% before the icc debuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    combat table : reduced hit chance by 9% (after soft cap). so roughly hit hance of 24% before the icc debuff
    I won't even comment on this, as it shows you clearly don't know how this works.
    Either that, or I'm too tired to read between your lines.

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