defence support thresholds

[Akeber]

80k health is nice, but I'd still gem mostly defense,

Think you mean stamina.

[praetoria]

"Proving stuff is hard. Most of the people that have replied to you aren't making random guesses"

sorry, but i do belive that most people who rant about ehp know very little of the equations behind it

"Yeah, half the people that replied so far don't need tankpoints to do the math for them - we can do it ourselves."

if that were true, it wouldnt be all that hard to prove with math now would it? controdiction. pick one side. this is borderline trolling.

"Well, you can ask for math all you like, it doesn't apply to the situation. Using the term "cap" in regards to defense is a mistake. That's not math, it's linguistics, I think. Calling it a hard cap is rather stupid."

this again make no sence, the only thing that applies are the equations behind the stats.. the rest is oppinion which for the purpose of this post is a joke. the word "cap" refers to thresholds hense the title " defence support thresholds" I already covered the fact the the term is slightly misleading, in the portion where i speak of the actual defence hard cap (102.4%) . if you want to call it stupid, write to blizzard, I didnt invent the terms.

"I tried looking for the "9% miss threshold," but can't find anything. Please explain the concept."

google "defence hard cap" and go from there.. be.imba.uk is a good place to start aswell.

its not a concept, its a machanic, just one that few ppl pay attention to. its also of of the foundations of the defence stat. ( furthermore, partly why blizz is doing away with the defence soft cap, but not the defence stat in cata)

these thresholds are the same as the ones you follow if your dpsing or pvping. if your a dps, you stick to a hit cap and an expertise cap. its this same machanic in reverse. higher defence equals a greater chance to miss on the tank. And marrowgar cant stack hit, so the returns are very reliable. Im not explaining the entire table, and the properties ran thru the RNG ( random number gen.) But you can find information about it. Im under the impression Blizz plans on making this the dominate machanic behind defence rating in cata. If they keep the stat at all.

[Martie]

"Proving stuff is hard. Most of the people that have replied to you aren't making random guesses"

sorry, but i do belive that most people who rant about ehp know very little of the equations behind it

You are quite right there.

"Yeah, half the people that replied so far don't need tankpoints to do the math for them - we can do it ourselves."

if that were true, it wouldnt be all that hard to prove with math now would it? controdiction. pick one side. this is borderline trolling.

Huh? Okay.... I'm reasonably sure, Kaze, Mellvar, Wartotem and I can do that math with enough precision. I'd say there is a fair chance one of the others can as well. I'd say that's about half the people that replied.

"Well, you can ask for math all you like, it doesn't apply to the situation. Using the term "cap" in regards to defense is a mistake. That's not math, it's linguistics, I think. Calling it a hard cap is rather stupid."

this again make no sence, the only thing that applies are the equations behind the stats.. the rest is oppinion which for the purpose of this post is a joke. the word "cap" refers to thresholds hense the title " defence support thresholds" I already covered the fact the the term is slightly misleading, in the portion where i speak of the actual defence hard cap (102.4%) . if you want to call it stupid, write to blizzard, I didnt invent the terms.

Oh, you meant the block cap. That one doesn't just have to do with defense, it combines all sources of avoidance and block rating. You realize that defense still gives avoidance after hitting the block cap, right? I mean, if we are going to call all caps that include defense in them defense cap, the real defense hard cap would be the avoidance cap.
That's why I said it's stupid to call it a defense hard cap - defense still gives you a benefit after it, and almost as much benefit to boot. The "soft defense cap" term is just as silly, by the way. You can get away with far less then 537 defense if you use some pvp gear.

"I tried looking for the "9% miss threshold," but can't find anything. Please explain the concept."

google "defence hard cap" and go from there.. be.imba.uk is a good place to start aswell.

I did. Lemme show you what I found.
.
The site you gave doesn't seem to exist.

its not a concept, its a machanic, just one that few ppl pay attention to. its also of of the foundations of the defence stat. ( furthermore, partly why blizz is doing away with the defence soft cap, but not the defence stat in cata)

Here is a link that shows you that Blizzard does indeed intend to remove defense, and it also quite clearly state that they think defense isn't really a cap.

these thresholds are the same as the ones you follow if your dpsing or pvping. if your a dps, you stick to a hit cap and an expertise cap. its this same machanic in reverse. higher defence equals a greater chance to miss on the tank. And marrowgar cant stack hit, so the returns are very reliable. Im not explaining the entire table, and the properties ran thru the RNG ( random number gen.) But you can find information about it. Im under the impression Blizz plans on making this the dominate machanic behind defence rating in cata. If they keep the stat at all.

Oh, I know quite well how these things work. That's why I think that it's not a good idea to gem for defense at this time, stamina is just too much better.

Being block-capped is overrated, though. Sure, there's a lot of fun to be had tanking adds that can't damage you, but that's about it - the actual difference between taking no unnblocked hits and taking 5% unblocked hits is mininal.

[praetoria]

I never met to imply you or kaz or the prementioned were included in generalization.. Ive followed several of ur forums, and kaz actually helped my out in previous threads of my own * tips hat to kaz*

but i do want to end this thread n a positive note.. like i said, this is the site i visit to get away from arguing. As you so put it, there really is a lot of fun to be had when playing what tanking stats. Avoidence imo is like vagas or AC. you eaither win a few and party all night, or you go home crying. considering the content and the current buff/gear lvls of most of us.. why not have some fun? isnt that why we are here?

i flasked out rage today in 25man.. no one noticed.. i didnt die.. but my tps were significently higher. So i cant say that jemming stats with better returns or tweeking a little avoidence is a bad thing right now.

sorry for the mistype with the site.. here it is be.imba.hu

also a small forum about the topic.. some mentions of thresholds. the real hard cap, exct.

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....50268274&sid=1

[Fledern]

Well, a few things:

"Defense hardcap" as they mention in the wow-europe forum and as the last post states there is impossible to reach and the whole thread there is simply a brainfart common to wow forums. If you're talking about 100% avoidance, that's another issue which can be solved through other avoidance stats (again impossible, etc). If you're talking about "unhittable", then we're talking and that used to be a trick gear set for anub 25hc add tanking that has pretty much no use anywhere else. Paladins can easily reach an unhittable state without extra defense gemming and that fact is already built into their class in that they sport less hp than comparable tanks.

Second, getting totally unhittable would be suboptimal for any number of tank classes, warriors being the prime example. Rage starvation is a very real issue if you're playing the class properly and that leads to massive threat loss. There are other talents of other tank classes that would benefit inversely from being completely unhittable too.

Third, your attitude. The people you've been accusing of "trolling" and are advising to go look up stuff all have some sort of guide/math article written somewhere in this site detailing when/why/how stuff should be expected to function. Hell, some of the terminology you used have been "invented" by the people on this site. The sites you've pointed to us contain near to nothing whereas a quick look to the guides section right on this site would've provided you with both the math and the rationale behind both what you were attempting to explain and why people replied to you the way they did. If you're trying to get away from the trolling on other forums, please dont drag it here with you.

FYI: be.imba.hu is a nice site for a starting person to look up at where he should be aiming at but my wow life for the last 2 years has been spent at points where that site strongly advises i avoid. Having a generalized pointer is a good thing, basing theory on it is not.

[MellvarTank]

I'm a little confused about this whole thread. But having a look at a few things... You may want to read:

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...king-mechanics

Also, make note that your experience is not on Hardmodes yet, just normal modes. This makes a large difference in damage intake.

[Lumines]

its not a concept, its a machanic, just one that few ppl pay attention to. its also of of the foundations of the defence stat. ( furthermore, partly why blizz is doing away with the defence soft cap, but not the defence stat in cata)

these thresholds are the same as the ones you follow if your dpsing or pvping. if your a dps, you stick to a hit cap and an expertise cap. its this same machanic in reverse. higher defence equals a greater chance to miss on the tank. And marrowgar cant stack hit, so the returns are very reliable. Im not explaining the entire table, and the properties ran thru the RNG ( random number gen.) But you can find information about it. Im under the impression Blizz plans on making this the dominate machanic behind defence rating in cata. If they keep the stat at all.

Hang on...are you trying to say that Marrowgar (for example) has, say, 10% chance to hit through some imagined boss hit rating stat, and that by gearing for greater than 10% miss through defense rating, he'll no longer be able to hit you?

[Passive]

I'm tired of these threads, there is nothing to be discussed. You make a post in which you try to claim avoidance is better than effective health and a bunch of people with a much better understanding of the dynamics of incoming damage post to show you how you're wrong.

Why don't you come up with something more interesting, for example, would we gem for any avoidance if chill of the throne was only 10% dodge? What about 15%, what about 5%?

[praetoria]

FYI: be.imba.hu is a nice site for a starting person to look up at where he should be aiming at but my wow life for the last 2 years has been spent at points where that site strongly advises i avoid. Having a generalized pointer is a good thing, basing theory on it is not.

I dont know then.. europe dominates america in progression. WOW is as popular as the superbowl there. Ironicly, avoidence is also more popular there. Theres several forums on this very site that clearly adresses avoidance and EHP debates, and furthermore makes clear we (should) only debate the tradeoff... On this forum, though many tallented people are joining in, we havent even gotten that far. EHP has really become a trend more then a bennifit.

Maybe defence hit thresholds are a non existent stat in american wow. being as no one has ever heard of it i guess. But if there is truly No bennifit to any other build then the 17//3/51,with a 540 def cap and stacking stam, then theres really no point to having sites like these. theres not even a point to defence, avoidence or mitigation for that fact. We could develope new t15 gearsets with a million hp and a billion armor just to satisfy our egos and keep things simple. let do away with those annoying socket bonus's. who even wants to this about more of this and there hrere and there. Oo and while we are at it, lets add a picture of a giant penis next to our health bars, and have rival tanks compare that next time in dalaran. Because we have made wow about as interesting as nintendo. Many other builds, theorys, and machanics exist. I dont care how hard bosses hit. if your geared for the content your in (ex: partial 277/264 for 25h fights) and your trying to tell me that more ehp is somhow bennifitical over threat gen or avoidance, when there is a 30% BUFF on health absorbsion and DPS, then i give up. your eaither lieing to me, or yourself.

To the poster above me, [passive] I have done pretty much what you suggested.. ehp was a novel idea when icc buff was at 5%... now its at 30%. we still cant move away from EHP and really for no logical reason. Every other stat i can think or scales pretty dam well when i campare it to the benifits of 15 or 30 stam here or there. But for no logical reason, we just cant move away from it.. I think i already said its more of a trend then a bennifit at this point. Ill post a few forums from other sites later form crafters that actually use avoidance and shield block, and block value.. but a lot of what i have is outdated.. by that i mean last updated when icc buff was around 10-15%. Most of the authors have gone to sc2 by now.. aparently they find that less redundent.O by the way - goodmorning everybody

[krc]

FYI: be.imba.hu is a nice site for a starting person to look up at where he should be aiming at but my wow life for the last 2 years has been spent at points where that site strongly advises i avoid. Having a generalized pointer is a good thing, basing theory on it is not.

Your only real arguement is that once you get to X amount of EH avoidance is great. The problem with your whole enough EH argument is that once you get to those ridiculous hp levels you outgear the encounter and might as well go for dps. Yes avoidance contributes more at those levels but the issue is that once you get to that level of gear there is almost a 0 chance of dying anyway.

[Tengenstein]

europe dominates america in progression. WOW is as popular as the superbowl there. Ironicly, avoidence is also more popular there. Theres several forums on this very site that clearly adresses avoidance and EHP debates, and furthermore makes clear we (should) only debate the tradeoff... On this forum, though many tallented people are joining in, we havent even gotten that far. EHP has really become a trend more then a bennifit.

this seems to be a deductive phallacy. The tanks who where getting europe the progression where stacking EHP over avoidance. Also where are you getting thesefigures for euro-tanks stacking avoidance?

Likewise, we had the avoidance EHP discussion many time on these forums, and the result is always the same. EHP wins. Please read agg's rather good article on why EHP is just better;
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...g-mechanics%29

I'll aggree it does make the gearing choices less than interesting, but that is a reflection of how blizz made the encounters.

[praetoria]

Your only real arguement is that once you get to X amount of EH avoidance is great. The problem with your whole enough EH argument is that once you get to those ridiculous hp levels you outgear the encounter and might as well go for dps. Yes avoidance contributes more at those levels but the issue is that once you get to that level of gear there is almost a 0 chance of dying anyway.

ok, then lets agree that having lvl 264/277 items ourgear 25h progression? where is the line drawn? when dose one "outgear" progression? are you raiding with the 30% or did u turn it off? I dont think that with mostly 264 and a few 277 slots that one outgears a 25h icc fight. likewise if someone is fighting 10h icc in 251 gear with a few 264 slots. in both those situations the fights are still challanging and the raid can wipe, but i can certianly think of more productive ways to customize my gear with dps, threat, avoidence, stacking over ehp at that point ( assuming the buff is being used.)

[Petninja]

@santoro2984
I'm wondering if you have a video or some screenshots or anything to support that defense gemming is on equal footing to stam gemming.

I know at the end of the day, for my raid group, having a larger health pool gives them more wiggle room. They like that, I like that. I've never considered stacking any kind of stat "fun". The numbers are just a means to an end. My healers never run out of mana, so gemming to reduce healing required would be pointless. The fact that my personal preference is the same strategy that top end tanks getting world firsts use just goes to show that it's not bad.

Finally, while I realize you are passionate about your stance, please use a spell checker if you are trying to make an argument. Bad spelling and grammar are the sloppy handwritings of the internet. No one likes to read it, and it just defeats your argument before anyone even considers it.

[praetoria]

this seems to be a deductive phallacy. The tanks who where getting europe the progression where stacking EHP over avoidance. Also where are you getting thesefigures for euro-tanks stacking avoidance?

Likewise, we had the avoidance EHP discussion many time on these forums, and the result is always the same. EHP wins. Please read agg's rather good article on why EHP is just better;


ive read the forums, thank you for posting them. but again.. the progression was happening when there was little or no icc buff.. its a HUGE difference. world first didnt step into icc with 6100gs and a 30% health, healign and dps buff.

thats not to say that the fights arent still chalanging, and there are more effective ways to customize yourself. those tanks were striving for ehp lvls that are easily achived right now. once you've hit enough ehp where you have maximumized ur max hits before death, thats where the ehp train stops. correct me if i am wrong, but all the ehp discussions ive read say that ultimitly, thats what ur striving for. even ehp has its threshold. just as someone cannot ever reach 102.4% avoidence, the same person will never reach 10 max hits before death without heals..

I did stack stam for months of icc. I never said it wasnt the most efficent method at the time. but right now, there is a clear advantage of stacking for threat or avoidence

FYI- I ran 25 yesterday with a few hardmodes.. i was the only tank without a dps trinket or str gems, or some dps slot... we talk about tanking pretty heavy at times here, but in teh raid.. most tanks are laughing with there war token on ( if they aarent on h cindy or lk)

[praetoria]

@santoro2984
I'm wondering if you have a video or some screenshots or anything to support that defense gemming is on equal footing to stam gemming.

I know at the end of the day, for my raid group, having a larger health pool gives them more wiggle room. They like that, I like that. I've never considered stacking any kind of stat "fun". The numbers are just a means to an end. My healers never run out of mana, so gemming to reduce healing required would be pointless. The fact that my personal preference is the same strategy that top end tanks getting world firsts use just goes to show that it's not bad.

Finally, while I realize you are passionate about your stance, please use a spell checker if you are trying to make an argument. Bad spelling and grammar are the sloppy handwritings of the internet. No one likes to read it, and it just defeats your argument before anyone even considers it.

LOL- 1000 sorrys for my spelling..

and im not saying ehp is bad at all.. im still 90% ehp. but again, world first was with a very different icc buff. that kind of supports my point more then discounts it

Im looking now for more reference material. it appears for some reason i cant connect to the old eu sites i used to follow

[Petninja]

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....50268274&sid=1

In that thread I got this from the contributors:
Due to diminishing returns it's impossible to hard cap avoidance. Mobs can still hit you from behind anyway. There's no point in gemming for dodge past crit immune (which is the more proper term for "defense soft cap").

ok, then lets agree that having lvl 264/277 items ourgear 25h progression? where is the line drawn? when dose one "outgear" progression? are you raiding with the 30% or did u turn it off? I dont think that with mostly 264 and a few 277 slots that one outgears a 25h icc fight. likewise if someone is fighting 10h icc in 251 gear with a few 264 slots. in both those situations the fights are still challanging and the raid can wipe, but i can certianly think of more productive ways to customize my gear with dps, threat, avoidence, stacking over ehp at that point ( assuming the buff is being used.)

I would suggest that you don't out gear the content until you've actually cleared all the content. It's relative to your skill.

[praetoria]

crit immune is the defence soft cap.. your correct that the actual hard cap is a retarded number (102.4%)

[Petninja]

I would suggest that when I was doing serious progression in ICC (which was back in like... February) most of the wipes were not tank related. Most of the time it was dps screwing off or the healers DCing. I would not suggest at that point that I could have gemmed away from stamina, because then more of the wipes likely would have been the tanks fault.

Actually, this debate went on the other day in a very similar fashion... I think it was the Corpse Tongue Coin debate. I think Kaze put up some useful numbers there, Corpse Tongue Coin. It's perfectly fine to mess with your gear set. Xav of Premonition actually used to have fun with Patchwerk by equipping dps trinkets to see how high he can get his dps for the fight (back when it was current content). I believe Xav now swaps out different weapons for different phases in the H LK encounter, because the extra dps from changing weapons is worth it to him.

I guess I should say that stam stacking isn't the answer. Gearing for the encounter is. I had to put on some iLevel 200 frost resist pieces for Sindragosa before we could down her. I made one of our healers do the same thing, because he kept dying to the same frost spell over and over again. I would totally agree that if you were tanking Saurfang on Lootships it might be worthwhile to gear for avoidance so he doesn't build his stacks so high, but you wouldn't want the same avoidance set for Marrowgar.

[praetoria]

this all very true.. going abck to the top.. i was applying to guilds that night.. and when i tried to expain this, a few of the guilds got pissy about it. i went avoidence on surfang h and it worked nice. combined with a few cds, healers said it made life easier.

my major problem is i WANT and need to work on other aspects of tanking.. threat being top priority. but i cant, because im expected to stack stam. the minute i do somthing else, my chances of getting into a good group rapidly deminish

[Petninja]

Is this you?