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Thread: defence support thresholds

  1. #1
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    defence support thresholds

    why arent thses used more often? seems like no one tries to reach anything close to hit cap when with the latest gear, its so obtainable. isnt it well worth the sacrifice of 15 stam per jem to reduce your damage by 10%?


    one of many things on my mind.. ive recently applied to several raiding guilds. 3 accepted my i think based on the fact that i knew what the hard cap was, several others are still in conversations.. and the less achived guilds basily say "NO!!!! FACEROLLLLLLL EHP OR FAIL"

    i just dont get it.. theres so much to play with as a tank.. why is it the general wow population is so affarid of it?

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    because even with all of the extra buffs, if you're still working on progression bosses, EHP still wins out in terms of reliable survivability. and how did you come up with this 10% reduced damage number? by gemming defense? I don't see how that mathematically holds.

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    /confused?
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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    the 10% was very exadurated. but for example, we as tanks never say " ehp is better then avoidence" we dispute the tradeoff... correct?

    so im im buffing out to 80,500 hp.. and i drop 60 stam to jem defence, and now im defence hit caped... campare that. there is no logical reason not to jem the def in the very spicific situation..

    but the avg jo would see the def gems and say " horrible jemming" not having a clue what hes talking about.. just frustrastes me

  5. #5
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    I'm fairly sure "we" tanks do say EHP is better than avoidance.

    But do elighten me please, What is the defence hit cap, ahd what does obtaining it actually do?

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    well, no.. ehp is not better... just more consistent. thru avoidence, math can prove you can become unhitable.. which ehp cant do.. the math behind avoid and ehp is always computed against mhbdwh (max hits before death without heals) thats what your aiming for. i belive 5 is the new standard. so thru ehp you can garentee 5.2 mhbdwh.. an avoidence set can offer 5.7 in the same situation, however, that rely's on randomization.. which could leave you at 4.9 mhbdwh if the percentages dont play to your favor in that exact moment. ( this is proven thru a random number generator)

    defence hard cap simply means you take less damage. same as if you were dpsing and your under hit cap, you would see glance, missed, exct. passing 9% miss ( im pretty sure the actually stat would be miss) reduces the overall damage you take by an undisputable about. granted mana is almost an unlimited resource for healers now, but even still it puts you in a situation to take less damage. this has nothing to do with mhbdwh (max hits before death without heals) but dose also alter the raito by a portion. exactly how much, someone else can do the math.. i havent gotten to it.. although the "true" hard cap is somthing like 103- 104% ( including spell hit) a hard cap is often refered to as defence threshold that is obtainable without sacrificing too much of another stat. i am beyond the 9% def hit cap.. ( 9.38% miss by my calculations) and every raid both the meter and the healers notice i take a noticable amount less damage then the otehr tanks, even if they outgear me by a small margin. and i buff to 76k an change at the moment. by my calculations, stacking agility is even better then stacking stam at this point.. even from an ehp standpoint. this is the reason i brought this up.. by all math ive done.. there is a point where you get better returns on other stats... i could be wrong.. but i could be right

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    no

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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    I cannot argue with Kaz... hes too awsome

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    I suggest you read up on what Defense actually does before gemming it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    well, no.. ehp is not better... just more consistent. thru avoidence, math can prove you can become unhitable.. which ehp cant do.. the math behind avoid and ehp is always computed against mhbdwh (max hits before death without heals) thats what your aiming for. i belive 5 is the new standard. so thru ehp you can garentee 5.2 mhbdwh.. an avoidence set can offer 5.7 in the same situation, however, that rely's on randomization.. which could leave you at 4.9 mhbdwh if the percentages dont play to your favor in that exact moment. ( this is proven thru a random number generator)
    You seem to be missing the point on EH, it isn't about max hits without heals or reducing total damage, tanks rarely died in those situations. It's about burst, streaks. And the problem with avoidance in streaks is that statistically speaking there is a 98% chance that you get hit in a 5 hit streak even with full avoidance there still is an 80% chance it happens. The streaks are going to happen anyway, no matter how much avoidance you get there still are odds you do not want to bet against. Also EH doesn't lose value, it still contributes the same no matter how much hp by increasing your max damage intake is

    And when you get to the point when you don't need more EH then congrats you out gear the encounter you might as well gear for intellect. Don't forget no EH is wasted, it all reduces the total healing you need to survive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krc View Post
    Don't forget no EH is wasted, it all reduces the total healing you need to survive.
    Other than the quoted line, you're right. However, while one could argue that you need (health + healing) > (damage taken), when the damage taken is an order of magnitude or so greater than the health, your starting health is does not make a difference to healing required.

    Plus, effecive health can be wasted - there's no point on earth rolling into, to take an exagerated example, heroic Violet Hold with 50,000 health unbuffed when you could go in with 30k and more DPS gear, and get to laugh at the nerdrage at "zomg, tank with only Ulduar health levels!!11!one".

    However, I accept that this is pedantry on the overall subject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by proudmoore View Post
    Other than the quoted line, you're right. However, while one could argue that you need (health + healing) > (damage taken), when the damage taken is an order of magnitude or so greater than the health, your starting health is does not make a difference to healing required.

    Plus, effecive health can be wasted - there's no point on earth rolling into, to take an exagerated example, heroic Violet Hold with 50,000 health unbuffed when you could go in with 30k and more DPS gear, and get to laugh at the nerdrage at "zomg, tank with only Ulduar health levels!!11!one".

    However, I accept that this is pedantry on the overall subject.
    my point exactly.. i dont NEED 125k health with a 30% buff for anything. id much rather jem for avoid or threat for that matter.. strength or agility would persoally make me a lot more happy.. but i cant because of the retarded stigma of stam stacking. if i produce a wowlog where im very tight on threat, the said nerd rager will say" tank cant hold aggro" but if i gem for threat said nerd rager will say " fail tank dosnt know how to jem" its a catch 22

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    I'm sorry, but this thread is funny!
    Specially this:

    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    mhbdwh (max hits before death without heals)
    And the fact that all your "math" is based upon totally random guesses.
    Oh and please do explain "defense hard cap"


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    You know what, I'm gonna agree with him on one thing. You don't need 125k hp. Once you hit that amount in ICC, gemming avoidance could very well be helpfull.

    For the rest, he's just using the same old beaten-to-death arguments for avoidance, and he's topping it off with some weird theory about a 9% miss cap. (Of course, that's ignoring the fact that just about every defense-using tank has around 9% miss just from being crit-immune.)
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  15. #15
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    While i can understand the point your trying to express, you really haven't expressed it very clearly at all.
    Currently in Woltk it is almost impossible to argue that Avoidance is better than Effective Health.
    EH provides steady incoming damage, and buys healers more time when you are hit to land that heal.
    I understand your point about Avoidance actually results in you taking less damage over time. Not saying you do not need any avoidance.

    Too many have spent their time, and large amounts of it to provide the knowledge/math of tanking in wow to speculate on numbers on live.

    Different gear for different fights. Threat, Frost, Fire, 4pc, EH, Stam, Block, 5 Man for examples.

    Do you need 80k health ? nope but if you been doing it long enough you will remember those times when you survived by 500 health or less.
    More is better and currently the preferred more is Stam and Armor. Come Cata that may change, i really doubt it will. I will be surprised when .44% (parry gem) is > 30 stam, Cata might make that happen but for now... More is better, just figure out what the more is. More spellpower, more crit , more AP , etc etc works for anyone.

    102.4 % avoidance for un-hittable vs 83


    Hope this helps



    Plus, effecive health can be wasted - there's no point on earth rolling into, to take an exagerated example, heroic Violet Hold with 50,000 health unbuffed when you could go in with 30k and more DPS gear, and get to laugh at the nerdrage at "zomg, tank with only Ulduar health levels!!11!one".
    Tanked all those heroics with 20-24k health, would i do it now hell no. I have a Corpse tongue Coin, would i wear it for LK fight hell no.
    Last edited by Glorc; 08-14-2010 at 02:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    You know what, I'm gonna agree with him on one thing. You don't need 125k hp. Once you hit that amount in ICC, gemming avoidance could very well be helpfull.
    I wont agree. If i'm at a point where burst->death is not an issue, i'm as hell NOT gearing for avoidance but for threat. These days i'm running with guys that can heal me from low hp to full in almost a GCD. When you have that sort of healing power behind you, yes you dont need that much HP but that sort of healing power means there's matching dps beside it, driving 15K+ dps and proportionally high threat.

    Once EH stops being a concern, threat becomes your next problem, not reducing required healing.

    Last time i remember avoidance being of any use was on P2 Prince in Karazhan so my healer could continue chatting away in /g without panicing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by proudmoore View Post
    Other than the quoted line, you're right. However, while one could argue that you need (health + healing) > (damage taken), when the damage taken is an order of magnitude or so greater than the health, your starting health is does not make a difference to healing required.
    Your health pool is sort of a buffer that stores hits/heals. By making that buffer larger, you reduce overhealing, thus increase the healing portion of your equation there. You are right that in an extremely low avoidance situation, the damage reduction from avoidance can thrump the EHP, but by becoming defense crit capped, you have already passed that point.

    Plus, effecive health can be wasted - there's no point on earth rolling into, to take an exagerated example, heroic Violet Hold with 50,000 health unbuffed when you could go in with 30k and more DPS gear, and get to laugh at the nerdrage at "zomg, tank with only Ulduar health levels!!11!one".

    However, I accept that this is pedantry on the overall subject.
    I disagree with this statement. To be exact, in any heroic, the max HP needed = total damage you take in the run + 1
    Technicly, you need to add random healing as well (PPC regen, totems, spriests, etc.), but you get the point.
    Yes, there is a point where avoidance will help you in the long run, but that's not what EHP is about.
    Currently, it's about how long you can survive in a worst case scenario and that means EHP. It's not a stigma or an idée fix, but it's simply better. And this comes from someone who used to believe near-religiously in avoidance untill I did the math (and I've certainly done it if you check my sig).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fledern View Post
    I wont agree. If i'm at a point where burst->death is not an issue, i'm as hell NOT gearing for avoidance but for threat. These days i'm running with guys that can heal me from low hp to full in almost a GCD. When you have that sort of healing power behind you, yes you dont need that much HP but that sort of healing power means there's matching dps beside it, driving 15K+ dps and proportionally high threat.
    And since you are tanking for them, you have enough threat.
    Yes, I know that threat becomes an issue once certain dps numbers are reached - I remember quite well that my dps was reaching a point where they were being threat-capped during my lk 10 heroic kill.

    Once EH stops being a concern, threat becomes your next problem, not reducing required healing.
    If you have enough health and threat, avoidance is one hell of a stat to stack, though.
    Last time i remember avoidance being of any use was on P2 Prince in Karazhan so my healer could continue chatting away in /g without panicing.
    Dunno, I kinda like it when I have enough survivability to allow for a healer less and/or solo-tanking the encounter. In 10mans, you just boosted the raid dps by 15%, just by allowing to have a healer less.
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    ok, for all the people with comments like this "And the fact that all your "math" is based upon totally random guesses.
    Oh and please do explain "defense hard cap" and " he's topping it off with some weird theory about a 9% miss cap".... dont troll my forums. i come here to get away from trolls. not hear more of it.. it makes NO difference waht you "AGREE" with.. I want to know what you can prove with math. end of discussion.... anyone comming in here knocking me because i ASKeD about avoidence and cant back it up with actual math, your a poser.. dont roll in my forums..

    for those less agrovating posters, I use an addon called tankpoints.. its pretty helpfull. lets you do all the conversions and compare stats with a few clicks instead of doing the long equations.

    going back to the point of the post.. Im at the point where EHP is not providing me the maxium bennifit.Ive passed the 9% miss threshold ( if you dont know what it is, i plee that you look it up before you troll the form) so im pretty comfertable with my avoidance at the moment. actually, i want to start working on threat more then avoidence. I have an avoidence set, but being realistic, i dont use it on hmode 25 encounters. Threat additions would be the biggest help to me, but i dont want to be asulted for jemming strength. assuming I have my rotation down, what suggestions are available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by santoro2984 View Post
    ok, for all the people with comments like this "And the fact that all your "math" is based upon totally random guesses.
    Proving stuff is hard. Most of the people that have replied to you aren't making random guesses.
    Oh and please do explain "defense hard cap" and " he's topping it off with some weird theory about a 9% miss cap".... dont troll my forums. i come here to get away from trolls. not hear more of it.. it makes NO difference waht you "AGREE" with.. I want to know what you can prove with math. end of discussion.... anyone comming in here knocking me because i ASKeD about avoidence and cant back it up with actual math, your a poser.. dont roll in my forums..
    Well, you can ask for math all you like, it doesn't apply to the situation. Using the term "cap" in regards to defense is a mistake. That's not math, it's linguistics, I think. Calling it a hard cap is rather stupid.
    for those less agrovating posters, I use an addon called tankpoints.. its pretty helpfull. lets you do all the conversions and compare stats with a few clicks instead of doing the long equations.
    Yeah, half the people that replied so far don't need tankpoints to do the math for them - we can do it ourselves.
    going back to the point of the post.. Im at the point where EHP is not providing me the maxium bennifit.Ive passed the 9% miss threshold ( if you dont know what it is, i plee that you look it up before you troll the form) so im pretty comfertable with my avoidance at the moment. actually, i want to start working on threat more then avoidence. I have an avoidence set, but being realistic, i dont use it on hmode 25 encounters. Threat additions would be the biggest help to me, but i dont want to be asulted for jemming strength. assuming I have my rotation down, what suggestions are available.
    I tried looking for the "9% miss threshold," but can't find anything. Please explain the concept.
    80k health is nice, but I'd still gem mostly stamina, even at that point. It's possible I'd go for a few more socket bonuses, but I don't think I would. I wouldn't gem strength anyway.

    edit: Changed a brainfart that was pointed out to me.
    Last edited by Martie; 08-14-2010 at 09:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

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