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Thread: Prot Paladin Hit Rating

  1. #1
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    Prot Paladin Hit Rating

    First, armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...cil&cn=Lukahna

    My problem: That darn Triumph hit trinket has been a security blanket of sorts. I'd like to ditch it in favor of, well, almost anything else, really, but doing so would put me at a woeful 155 hit rating (4.73%).

    It feels like I'd need to juggle a lot of other gear to get enough hit (I have a pretty good collection of badge and ICC gear in my bank, so there are options... but every combination I've looked at means giving up a lot of Stam or Armor, or puts me well under Exp. cap (with SoV)), so my attempts seem like an overall downgrade.

    So, my question is, what changes would you recommend, changing as little as possible? (I always have a Draenei in the group.)

    At the moment, I have access to ~8/10 ICC10N, ~7/10 ICC25N drops (except the T10.5 Marks are reserved for others... ) plus crafted/badge gear of course.

  2. #2
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    If you always have a Draenei in your group, you don't need more then 155 hit, and there's no expertise cap that tanks need to worry about.

    If you are worried about threat, a good respec would get you farther then stacking hit rating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  3. #3
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    ...you've been tanking with a hit trinket?

    You don't need hit to tank. Really, you don't. Take what you get from gear, but don't gear specifically for it, don't gem for it, and don't enchant for it (except maybe Accuracy on weapon, simply because the other weapon enchants aren't very good either). You certainly don't want to be using a whole trinket slot on it. While it's an excellent threat stat, you shouldn't need to gear for threat stats at all. Ever. If you're having threat issues, post a log and we can see if there are rotation issues. If you're worried about missing taunts (and you shouldn't be, as you have two of them), swap in some hit pieces for taunt-sensitive fights.

    You could also benefit from reading this talent guide, because Seals of the Pure builds have been sub-optimal for a couple of patches now, and not maxing out Ardent Defender or Combat Expertise is criminal. You could benefit from this gem and enchant guide; in brief, throw away that 20 dodge gem and meet your meta requirement with a 10 agi/15 stam gem in your helm to pick up the +12 stamina socket bonus.

  4. #4
    Your gear is nearly identical to mine and I havent had a threat problem since... well tbh I dont ever remember threat issues... I tank heroic icc10 and reg icc25 with 108 hit and its never failed me even once, I know every single fight to the point where Its all just a script, reacting like an actor preforming in a play for the 100th time. If for some reason, a glyphed taunt misses, I use my other taunt, and if that fails, HoP doesnt require a hit rating

    Yes you wont land every single hit (you would be suprised how often you will still hit, even with 0 rating), but with tps scaling the way it does, a proper spec and a fast, effective rotation, I guarantee you will have a very healthy threat lead on any dps.

    Go with a better trinket for more survival

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumines View Post
    ...you've been tanking with a hit trinket?
    Yeah, I know. I deserved that.

    Thanks (to you all) for the good info and links. Seems I do need to move a few talent points around. This all helps confirm I've been over paranoid about hit and under paranoid about spec changes.

    Here's a recent log: http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/log/1841433 or http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/y66u73edoat93ef6/ (same log).

    Threat hasn't been an issue (but I've never gone anywhere near 155 hit rating), but then again neither has survivability. Still, any rotation feedback would be much appreciated. I raid lead and haven't had threat issues, so I wouldn't be too surprised if I've gotten a bit sloppy.

  6. #6
    Im really horrible at reading logs, so I cant really tell if you are doing your rotation properly, Im sure you already know the 969 rotation so I will not go over it here :P If I could find out how to see a cast by cast chart of the fight, I could help you out on that. I can, however, tell you that you dont need to use hammer of wrath, and if you do use it, only replace holyshield with it, which even then I dont recomend unless its a melee fight. (Im looking at you on rotface btw)

    You can change your bladeward chant for accuracy if you want more hit, bladeward has been proven time and time again to be subpar to the other relevant tanking chants lately

  7. #7
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    Your rotation needs some work. Looking at Festergut (little to no movement, just cranking out threat) you start off fine:

    [21:41:28.186] Lukahna casts Hammer of the Righteous on Festergut
    [21:41:30.137] Lukahna casts Holy Shield
    [21:41:31.655] Lukahna casts Shield of Righteousness on Festergut
    [21:41:33.423] Lukahna casts Judgement of Wisdom on Festergut
    [21:41:35.142] Lukahna casts Hammer of the Righteous on Festergut
    [21:41:36.743] Lukahna casts Consecration
    [21:41:38.060] Lukahna casts Shield of Righteousness on Festergut
    [21:41:39.647] Lukahna casts Holy Shield
    [21:41:41.550] Lukahna casts Hammer of the Righteous on Festergut
    [21:41:43.131] Lukahna casts Judgement of Wisdom on Festergut
    [21:41:44.615] Lukahna casts Shield of Righteousness on Festergut

    But after that it goes a bit screwy, e.g.

    [21:41:47.951] Lukahna casts Hammer of the Righteous on Festergut
    [21:41:50.888] Lukahna casts Shield of Righteousness on Festergut
    [21:41:52.907] Lukahna casts Holy Shield
    [21:41:54.508] Lukahna casts Hammer of the Righteous on Festergut
    [21:41:56.025] Lukahna casts Judgement of Wisdom on Festergut
    [21:41:57.610] Lukahna casts Shield of Righteousness on Festergut
    [21:42:00.863] Lukahna casts Hammer of the Righteous on Festergut
    [21:42:02.957] Lukahna casts Holy Shield
    [21:42:04.549] Lukahna casts Shield of Righteousness on Festergut
    [21:42:06.728] Lukahna casts Judgement of Wisdom on Festergut
    [21:42:08.154] Lukahna casts Hammer of the Righteous on Festergut
    [21:42:10.756] Lukahna casts Shield of Righteousness on Festergut

    While the first section was 69696969696, the second is 669696696966. You're pushing back the effective cooldowns on your highest threat/dps abilities (there's an 8 second gap between two HotRs in there, for example) which means you're doing lower threat than you could be.

    Since you're confident in your threat lead, you could also lost Armsman (2% threat is worthless if nobody's threat capped) and replace it with a stamina or armour kit. I see from your armoury that you've respecced to cookie cutter, which will do wonders for both your threat and survivability compared to what you had before

  8. #8
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    I have got by so far by taking the hit rating on my gear as a given and not explicitly going for more through gems. I do, however, have a gear set with 158 hit rating for bosses which require 100% of taunts to land (for example saurfang, festergut, putricide)

  9. #9
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    Rotation analysis

    I couldn't find any way to get a concise log analysis of tankadin rotation, so I just wrote an analyzer. I agree, fights like Rotface are definitely a good test.

    It was sort of enlightening. Here's what I found:
    1. Casting every 1.85sec on average (26% under 1.55s, 69% under 1.7s).
    2. I casted 2 "sixes" 8 times (i.e., HotR + ShoR or ShoR + HotR). Whoops.
    3. I omitted Consecration quite often (this, plus #2 probably contributed greatly to #1)
    4. I never casted 2 "nines"
    5. Potential Holy Shield uptime was 92.1% (expired 8 times)
    6. There are large gaps in my casting activity during ooze explosions. I was way ahead on threat by then, but could still certainly optimize this.
    7. Hammer of Wrath is the devil.
    I'm also attaching the (plain text) output of my analyzer if anyone wants to have a look. It should be pretty self explanatory: Log of casts first, followed by an analysis of the results (scroll to the bottom of the file).

    I'd be curious to run this thing on some log parses from a few other tankadins on Rotface.
    Attached Files

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumines View Post
    While the first section was 69696969696, the second is 669696696966.
    Ah, thanks for looking at this. This matches what I'm seeing with my analyzer, too.

    Now that I have a way to objectively review my rotation, it'll be much easier to improve.

    My UI was getting a bit cluttered, so I tweaked that a bit, too, to simplify things rotation-wise and raid leading wise. I'd accumulated far too much text on my screen in some fights.

    Since you're confident in your threat lead, you could also lost Armsman (2% threat is worthless if nobody's threat capped) and replace it with a stamina or armour kit. I see from your armoury that you've respecced to cookie cutter, which will do wonders for both your threat and survivability compared to what you had before
    I'll give that some thought. Thanks!

  11. #11
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    There's a really nice way to see a graphical representation of abilities used vs time using the Expression Editor of worldoflogs...but I can't find the post on maintankadin which showed how to do it :/

    If you want an eye-opener, run your parser on some of the public logs from Silvermoon-EU (decently ranked PvE server). I went through a few by hand a few weeks ago and out of a dozen or so guild logs examined, there were maybe 4 who were actually running a 969 correctly on tank and spank encounters. It was pretty depressing.

  12. #12
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    Wow, yes, that is eye-opening. I grabbed nine Rotface vs. tankadin logs, and, even among guilds progressed far into 25H (far more than our laid-back guild's current 10N efforts!), there's a huge difference between theory and practice when it comes to 96969.

    Most of the log parses look a lot like mine, in terms of # of GCDs used, 96969 fidelity, and Holy Shield uptime. None were perfect. One was a little better. Some are fairly horrible. (For example, < 3 sec average cast, Hand of Reckoning ten times during the encounter! Another was fond of Judgements and Consecration back to back.)

    Thanks for the advice and assistance!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumines View Post
    There's a really nice way to see a graphical representation of abilities used vs time using the Expression Editor of worldoflogs...but I can't find the post on maintankadin which showed how to do it :/

    If you want an eye-opener, run your parser on some of the public logs from Silvermoon-EU (decently ranked PvE server). I went through a few by hand a few weeks ago and out of a dozen or so guild logs examined, there were maybe 4 who were actually running a 969 correctly on tank and spank encounters. It was pretty depressing.

    There is a reason for it who is actually having threat issues as a tank??? Most are drinking coffee/beer or playing bejewelled etc on side.

    Exactly as you stated they concentrate and get rotation right for first few seconds the DPS is like 40% threat or less you zone out and do crap.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    There is a reason for it who is actually having threat issues as a tank??? Most are drinking coffee/beer or playing bejewelled etc on side.

    Exactly as you stated they concentrate and get rotation right for first few seconds the DPS is like 40% threat or less you zone out and do crap.
    I think that's a pretty poor attitude to take. Executing a correct rotation means your personal DPS output is going to increase substantially compared to auto-attacking and occasionally casting Judgement, and shorter fights means quicker progress through farm content. At this point in the expansion, there are plenty of people who are looking to increase their personal DPS while tanking as something to keep them amused on farm content, and also (to an extent) to keep them ahead of their 277 geared DPS who are pulling silly numbers with the 30% buff.

    Aside from that, I think there are people having threat issues while tanking, and my evidence for that is the number of threads on these very forums which crop up with people having threat issues. And it's almost always rotation issues causing it.

    And finally, if your guild is one which "always welcomes applications from exceptional members of any class" or some such, you're going to look a bit silly when you lose your raiding spot to someone who can and does execute a tight rotation, while your last month of logs shows you /afking through boss fights :P

    I just don't believe in half-assing things through laziness; striving to improve myself is the main thing that keeps me interested in this game.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukahna View Post
    I'd be curious to run this thing on some log parses from a few other tankadins on Rotface.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3596&e=3846

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6173&e=6379
    Have fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    There is a reason for it who is actually having threat issues as a tank??? Most are drinking coffee/beer or playing bejewelled etc on side.

    Exactly as you stated they concentrate and get rotation right for first few seconds the DPS is like 40% threat or less you zone out and do crap.
    From my experience, the "Threat issues are a joke" thing only exists when you have bad dps. Once dps starts hitting 12k-18k dps, you can run into some very real issues, and tricks or misdirects become more important.

    That being said, we stopped using a second tank on deathwhisper heroic - tricks and misdirects are enough most of the time, especially when people pay attention and are willing to swap to adds/use threat skills correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  17. #17
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    [21:16:56.615] Nctn casts Shield of Righteousness on Rotface
    [21:17:00.506] Nctn casts Hammer of the Righteous on Rotface
    [21:17:02.096] Nctn casts Consecration
    [21:17:03.562] Nctn casts Shield of Righteousness on Rotface
    [21:17:05.297] Nctn casts Holy Shield
    [21:17:06.885] Nctn casts Judgement of Wisdom on Rotface
    [21:17:08.370] Nctn casts Hammer of the Righteous on Rotface
    [21:17:10.327] Nctn casts Shield of Righteousness on Rotface
    [21:17:11.957] Nctn casts Consecration
    [21:17:14.592] Nctn casts Hammer of the Righteous on Rotface
    [21:17:16.312] Nctn casts Judgement of Wisdom on Rotface
    [21:17:17.982] Nctn casts Shield of Righteousness on Rotface
    [21:17:21.010] Nctn casts Hammer of the Righteous on Rotface
    [21:17:24.744] Nctn casts Shield of Righteousness on Rotface



    And later:

    [21:19:18.613] Nctn casts Shield of Righteousness on Rotface
    [21:19:25.121] Nctn casts Shield of Righteousness on Rotface
    [21:19:26.695] Nctn casts Hammer of the Righteous on Rotface
    [21:19:33.073] Nctn casts Hammer of the Righteous on Rotface

    Blips there too, e.g.

    [22:07:43.213] Nctn casts Holy Shield
    [22:07:44.704] Nctn casts Shield of Righteousness on Rotface
    [22:07:47.933] Nctn casts Hammer of the Righteous on Rotface

    and

    [22:08:19.730] Nctn casts Shield of Righteousness on Rotface
    [22:08:25.707] Nctn casts Hammer of the Righteous on Rotface
    [22:08:27.359] Nctn casts Shield of Righteousness on Rotface
    [22:08:29.029] Nctn casts Judgement of Wisdom on Rotface
    [22:08:30.651] Nctn casts Holy Shield
    [22:08:32.141] Nctn casts Hammer of the Righteous on Rotface
    [22:08:33.736] Nctn casts Shield of Righteousness on Rotface
    [22:08:35.425] Nctn casts Consecration
    [22:08:38.156] Nctn casts Judgement of Wisdom on Rotface

    A few empty GCDs slipping in there.

  18. #18
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    Damn, I wanted to see my own performance broken down into nice and comprehensible lists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  19. #19
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    From my experience, the "Threat issues are a joke" thing only exists when you have bad dps. Once dps starts hitting 12k-18k dps, you can run into some very real issues, and tricks or misdirects become more important.
    Ehh, I think that the ease of threat generation is a bit overstated as well, but I'd be wary of calling people or their fellow raiders "bad" if they disagree with you.

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