Handling off armor priority & sidegrade looting - help please ♥

[RavenIron]

I finally have something that I could use your help with! xD

Background: This guild is mostly geared ICC25/ICC10HC so we are starting ICC25HC this week, we are going to start getting geared from the next tier of gear and most gear will be competed for through EPGP (dkp reloaded) which has been a great loot system for this guild. Our guild roster is holding approx 30 active raiders with a few casuals.

Ok here goes:

There are at least two specs in my guild which would benefit greatly from rolling on secondary armor choices, one is Ele Shamans who would like to need on cloth/leather and Holy Paladins which would like to need on mostly mail but some cloth too.

I'm going to give the following examples based on my gear for holy paladin because that's what I'm most comfortable explaining.

I'm one of two holy paladins. I've always stayed up to date with my spec and I've done my best to make haste my priority when choosing gear and I've been able to pick up some mail pieces from ICC10HC with little competition so healing two/three tanks through heavy damage + raid healing + stunning adds (in both ICC10HC 10/12 & ICC25HC 2/12) when needed has been an easy feat so far. We started progression LichKing10HC recently and that's the only fight I've actually had to work for even with my current gear set.

Now that I'll be needing to take upgrades and compete with a whole lot of casters and resto shamans in ICC25HC for gear there is an issue.

Our loot priority is: Mainspec > Offarmor > Offspec > Alts. We pay 20% for offspec gear. We pay full price for sidegrades (same level gear).

I've realized that there are 4-6 pieces of gear which will be mail or cloth and carry the haste I need. These are BIS but even the alternatives tend to be another armor type. The plate alternatives carry crit (which is pretty useless as a holy light spammer) and no haste (which means I'll start to fall under my soft haste cap if I just take the spellplate that drops for those slots).

I feel there are two fair options:

1) Following the guild rules (to take upgrades when they come), I take the spellplate (crit) when they drop for me because it is an upgrade. Once no one needs the mail/lhtr/cloth drops I can loot those but pay no GP(dkp) because they are sidegrades.

This way I'm taking the spellplate upgrades but will still be able to get the haste at a later date from mail/lhtr/cloth when needed for the harder bosses without being penalized having to pay more than 100% per gear slot and having lower priority than other classes when it comes to needing on tokens and weapons.

I do not think it's fair that some classes pay 100% for their whole main spec gear set and have an advantage on tokens/weapons while I'm going to have to pay 200% on 4-6 slots giving me lower priority.

2) EleShammys/Holydins/whatever other class may have permission to need with other classes on secondary armor. For example, when Coldwraith Belt drops I can need with all the casters and if I have the highest priority I can loot it. I don't think this will go down well.

Additionally if you think about it, I could take a spellplate crit item and lose a little haste for awhile and be ok with that, in the meantime a caster takes the haste item and we both get upgraded in Option 1 (above). In this second option, the spellplate gets disenchanted and only one person recieves an upgrade.


I feel (I don't actually know yet) that I'll be ok with no upgrades for the first 6-7 heroic25 bosses. But beyond that if I have to wait to take upgrades I don't think I'll be able to keep up on the latter bosses.

Our officer meetings are usually peaceful and we resolve issues very well <3 But for some reason this issue has been a touchy one *shrugs* Some suggestions would be helpful and if you need more information just ask

[Bashal]

There are a few different ways to handle "rolling down". Part of it is the loot system in use, and part of it is the general temperament of the players and officers, and how they specifically view loot.

I can only tell you how our guild looks at it:

It isn't fair to roll against a clothie, when the clothie can't roll against you on your armor type.

There are, of course, counter-arguments to this. But our guild tries to de-emphasize the whole "BiS" thing, because while it may min-max your toon, not wearing BiS doesn't utterly wreck your gameplay. And of course, since skill>gear....

That's just my take on it, is all I'm saying.

[Blacksen]

It isn't fair to roll against a clothie, when the clothie can't roll against you on your armor type.

Loot shouldn't be fair.

Loot is the means to an end, and for most guilds, that end is progression. Whatever loot system you chose to use, you should ensure that all loot is handled to maximize progression.

The Coldwraith Belt is best-in-slot for most casters, regardless of what armor type they're in. You should award it in whatever way you feel will impact your progression the most. You're just now starting heroic Icecrown, so you should be giving it out to whoever you think will get you the most progression within heroic Icecrown. You can let DKP determine that, or loot council, or priority ratio, or whatever.

But "fair" isn't a word that should enter into your system. Who cares about what's fair? You should care about what's going to get you the progress. And at the end of the day, an elemental shaman getting the Coldwraith Belt will impact your progress just as much, if not more, than a weak shadow priest.

[RavenIron]

Thanks for the objective opinions.

I agree about BIS, it's not necessary but my problem is that even the alternatives are secondary armor which I find ridiculous.The spellplate should be itemized, especially in that tier, for the way 25HC forces holydins to heal (HLspam), same with mail for shamans - and that's the problem.

I totally agree that shamans and paladins should not be able to have priority to roll with lower armor classes.

@Blacksen: I guess my progression guild must be unique. While progression is the playstyle that holds us together, everyone values new and old friendships, fairness and happiness as high as progression. The balance is delicate and at times if we need to compromise our progression then so be it.

This is the first and only time I've ever felt trapped in a corner. Perhaps the rules need to change to accomodate our situation not only for armor but for weapons aswell. Your post has made me realise maybe there is a more suitable loot system for our small raid guild. Oh and I liked your blog, it's good stuff

One more question for everyone out there... how does your guild handle looting out sidegrades (items in the same tier)?

[Crommi]

It's a problem that has been brought up in our guild as well but in the end, DKP is the king and you've earned it by being active raider. You should be able to spend it on an item that improves your performance regardless of what slot or armor type it is. Fair lootsystem cannot favor one player over another just based on what class they had chosen.

[Bashal]

This is the first and only time I've ever felt trapped in a corner. Perhaps the rules need to change to accomodate our situation not only for armor but for weapons aswell [...] One more question for everyone out there... how does your guild handle looting out sidegrades (items in the same tier)?

The itemization issue has plagued wow for quite some time. I think the best thing you can do is talk to the folks whose "feet" you would be stepping on and see if you can come to some kind of arrangement outside of the rules your loot system.

My guild is largely indifferent to side-grades, most of the time guildies aren't interested in picking those up, unless they are actually an upgrade (e.g. ditching gear with hit rating when over cap). In that case they'll just go ahead and take it for main set if they feel its worth it. At the end of the day, if you go in there regularly, you are pretty much guaranteed to get most items you are looking for. There's always that one piece that'll never want to drop, though. :P

If it isn't a clear upgrade for someone, and it falls to side-grades or offset, we usually talk it out a bit. "I could use that piece to drop the hit rating I have, I'm over cap" "I could use that for offspec but I don't really get to use my offspec much... you take it." and so on.