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Thread: How am i doing so far? (80 pally)

  1. #1
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    How am i doing so far? (80 pally)

    I posted a thread about a week ago asking for advice on gear and what not. I took everyone's advice. I can now tank heroics =)

    what do you guys think of the gear so far??

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...aker&cn=Dyjack

  2. #2
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    Things are looking good. Some advice and suggestions thou.
    Spec-benediction isn't great. SoComm for heroic trash would be better. And get the minor for sense undead. Its a nice lil undead damage buff. Also, since you are doing heroics, you have 2 taunts, lose the rightous def glyph and put something that will help threat IE...hammer of the rightous which will allow you to hit another target.
    Gear-a few rules to live by! NEVER EVER EVER EVER gem parry, only gem def or def/stam til 540 and then go pure stam. Hit rating which you could raise a bit is 8% and soft cap for Expertise is 26, you are a tad high on that, well really high but a new piece of gear or two will change that.
    Do WG or a daily bg or two and get yourself the stam/res shoulder enchant.
    Throw even the cheap leg enchant on your pants.
    mats/bages are easy enough to come by now, get the crafted saronite swordbreakers.
    Hope this helps.

  3. #3
    He cannot replace the point in benediction with a point in Command, he is using the one point there instead of 2/2 imp judgements. The spec is fine for heroics I see no problem there, benediction helps a bit with mana so it is viable. I would switch 2 points from conviction to vindication, namely because you are ready to walk into naxx, uld, and prob even toc 10 so start getting some raid experience under your belt.

    Gemming- Change the parry gem to a stam gem. However going straight stam at your gear level is the wrong thing to do, just like having blood draining would be the wrong thing to do. Stats are weighted and with some of the bonuses they are worth getting. Maintankadin does have a chart which all the top end pallies who do gem straight stam were known to follow. I am too lazy to look it up, but here is the jist of how you want to gem for the time being.
    If the socket bonus is not stamina-ignore it put 30 stam gem
    If the socket bonus is stamina-Gem for the bonus, this means in yellow slots you want the def/stam gem and in the red slots you want the agi/stam gem.

    Along these same lines, do not get the pvp shoulder enchant unless you do not have the hodir rep on this or any other toons, the hodir enchant scales better at your level of gear.

    With you expertise sitting as high as it is now, I would drop the glyph of SoV and get the glyph of judgements, with the seal active you are actually over the hard cap. Start looking for some hit, it is not anywhere near as big of a deal to be hit and expertise capped as people will say (I normally tank around 130 hit and with 19 expertise when the seal is active) however you will want to be at least in the mid 100's as you will see a pretty nice threat jump there. That being said you now have seen that you can tank with 74 hit, so do not become obsessed with it, if you get some more you get some more, if not oh well.

    Good progress overall and I will agree with Chasey in regards to looking at crafting saronite swordbreakers, on my server mats would be roughly 1200 gold, but with you being a miner you can farm all but the orbs which shouldn't run more than 500g.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledknight View Post
    He cannot replace the point in benediction with a point in Command, he is using the one point there instead of 2/2 imp judgements. The spec is fine for heroics I see no problem there, benediction helps a bit with mana so it is viable. I would switch 2 points from conviction to vindication, namely because you are ready to walk into naxx, uld, and prob even toc 10 so start getting some raid experience under your belt.
    Its not smart point placement at all. If you are in a raid, you are getting more than enough mana back. If you are in a heroic go 2/2 in SA if you can't contol your mana yet. 5% return on mana is far batter than a 2% savings on insta cast. 2/2 in improved judgements are decent for threat and don't throw off your 969 enough to notice. So in essence 1 in benni and 1 in improve might are wasted.

    Along these same lines, do not get the pvp shoulder enchant unless you do not have the hodir rep on this or any other toons, the hodir enchant scales better at your level of gear.
    Once over 540 def, there is no scaling! The pvp is far better, .5% dodge from the Hodir enchant is junk at any gear level. The res on the pvp enchant lowers the def minimum to 547. So its a no brainer!
    As for gems and the rule of thumb, if its stam as a bonus it should be +9stam to even want to hit the bonus. At his hit lvl I'd go hit/stam til he can get some more hit on his gear. I agree on the agi/stam. Gemming +def over 540 is a wasted gem.

  5. #5
    You really do not seem to understand that the point he has in benediction gets him to the next level, so he can have a 8 second cd on his judgement or 2% base mana reduction, it really doesn't matter about SA because he can not move the point from Ben to SA. The shorter CD on judgements is pointless unless a) movement eliminates you being able to follow the rotation for a few moments or b) when for whatever odd ball reason you just can not make the next pull without judge being off CD. Is it correct for raiding? NO is it fine for heroics? Yes.

    I will not digress and get into the arguement of everyone should gem and enchant like they are 11/12 or 12/12 25 man heroic modes.....however he is a level 2 tank thus the hodir shoulder enchant is better, I am going to stick with theck and meloree on enchants and their values
    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Chasey View Post
    Its not smart point placement at all. If you are in a raid, you are getting more than enough mana back. If you are in a heroic go 2/2 in SA if you can't contol your mana yet. 5% return on mana is far batter than a 2% savings on insta cast. 2/2 in improved judgements are decent for threat and don't throw off your 969 enough to notice. So in essence 1 in benni and 1 in improve might are wasted.
    In all actuality. It is THE optimal thing to do, you wont be using judgement more than every 9 seconds in a controlled situation, the one second extra from 2 imp judgements is mostly a wasted point either way you put it, but benediction would actually help him as it would anyone just learning the class, no it wont really be noticeable but its more benefit than imp judgments, 2/2 does not give any more threat than 1/2, infact if you were using it every CD, your threat would actually suffer. I (and alot of others) just take 2 imp judgements for lack of the need for benediction. but there is absolutely nothing wrong with 1 imp judgments 1 benediction (besides the fact that it looks funny)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chasey View Post
    Once over 540 def, there is no scaling! The pvp is far better, .5% dodge from the Hodir enchant is junk at any gear level. The res on the pvp enchant lowers the def minimum to 547. So its a no brainer!
    As for gems and the rule of thumb, if its stam as a bonus it should be +9stam to even want to hit the bonus. At his hit lvl I'd go hit/stam til he can get some more hit on his gear. I agree on the agi/stam. Gemming +def over 540 is a wasted gem.
    First of all, defense does infact scale after 540, it increases dodge, block, parry, and miss still. the resil chant lowers the minimum to 536, not (and Im guessing the 4 was a typo) 537. but as exiled said, it actually does benefit more than the stamina would. tanking earlier raids and 5 mans is not the same as tanking end game progression content. Just because I can do old content in my 264 gear with EH gearing, doesnt make it optimal, or right.
    9 and 12 stam bonuses are good for end game, but you gotta remember.. pre end game gear lacks the avoidances that 264 tank gear has built in. they dont have the armor, avoidances, or (even fully gemming stam) the health pool to survive the way a progression tank can.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledknight View Post
    a) movement eliminates you being able to follow the rotation for a few moments
    So, that extra point is only useful on Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, Princes, Valithiria, Rotface, Putricide, Lich King, Beasts, Jaraxxus and faction champions?

    When talking about threat, people remembed that less mana gained = less threat done, right? Benediction causes you to need less mana, thus there's less effective mana gain, thus there's less threat.

    I kinda agree with avoidance being superior at easier gear content. But it ends early - once you are doing ToC, mobs hit hard enough that you outgear them a lot if avoidance is better. And once you outgear them that much, the whole point is moot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post

    When talking about threat, people remembed that less mana gained = less threat done, right? Benediction causes you to need less mana, thus there's less effective mana gain, thus there's less threat.
    Im not sure I understand what you are saying here

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shieldie View Post
    Im not sure I understand what you are saying here
    Mana gains work just like heals - when something gives you mana, it causes some threat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  10. #10
    Im prettysure they removed that mechanic a long time ago, didnt they?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    Mana gains work just like heals - when something gives you mana, it causes some threat.
    That was fixed in 3.08! So no it doesn't add extra threat!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledknight View Post
    You really do not seem to understand that the point he has in benediction gets him to the next level, so he can have a 8 second cd on his judgement or 2% base mana reduction, it really doesn't matter about SA because he can not move the point from Ben to SA. The shorter CD on judgements is pointless unless a) movement eliminates you being able to follow the rotation for a few moments or b) when for whatever odd ball reason you just can not make the next pull without judge being off CD. Is it correct for raiding? NO is it fine for heroics? Yes.

    I will not digress and get into the arguement of everyone should gem and enchant like they are 11/12 or 12/12 25 man heroic modes.....however he is a level 2 tank thus the hodir shoulder enchant is better, I am going to stick with theck and meloree on enchants and their values
    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic
    Well you go ahead and do that, I'll take the 300 stam before kings and forgo the minimal .5% dodge and avoidance from def. And as you said, this fella is a lvl 3 tank per digrens sheet he recommends FOR A LVL 3 tank, which this guy is to put that into per his suggestion.

    (3)Progressing Ulduar / ToC Normal. A level three paladin starts with Naxx-or-better gear (iLvl 213-219) and is raiding with a guild that wants to progress through T8.5 and T9 normal mode content.He or she should continue to shift gems and enchants from avoidance to stamina as gear improves, following the steps later in this guide to maximize the conversion. The tank will probably stay at the block cap but will never again care except for trick encounters.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shieldie View Post
    In all actuality. It is THE optimal thing to do, you wont be using judgement more than every 9 seconds in a controlled situation, the one second extra from 2 imp judgements is mostly a wasted point either way you put it, but benediction would actually help him as it would anyone just learning the class, no it wont really be noticeable but its more benefit than imp judgments, 2/2 does not give any more threat than 1/2, infact if you were using it every CD, your threat would actually suffer. I (and alot of others) just take 2 imp judgements for lack of the need for benediction. but there is absolutely nothing wrong with 1 imp judgments 1 benediction (besides the fact that it looks funny)


    First of all, defense does infact scale after 540, it increases dodge, block, parry, and miss still. the resil chant lowers the minimum to 536, not (and Im guessing the 4 was a typo) 537. but as exiled said, it actually does benefit more than the stamina would. tanking earlier raids and 5 mans is not the same as tanking end game progression content. Just because I can do old content in my 264 gear with EH gearing, doesnt make it optimal, or right.
    9 and 12 stam bonuses are good for end game, but you gotta remember.. pre end game gear lacks the avoidances that 264 tank gear has built in. they dont have the armor, avoidances, or (even fully gemming stam) the health pool to survive the way a progression tank can.
    With huge diminishing returns. I guess these help sections are now a pissing contest for who's more right! I won't get into that any longer. Yes Def adds to avoidance thats not what I would do, what I would want to heal and not something I'm going to suggest to someone coming here to look for help.
    So on the scaling def, what would you want to add more def for? Its not nearly as good as stam. The best would be armor. Are you really recommending avoidance for heroics? So at 28% dodge and 21% dodge which is better 30 stam or 7% dodge? I'm going stam ALL DAY LONG! No matter what point in the game you look to survive 2-3 hit w/o a heal. You do that w/stam and EH. Dodge, extra def and other chance to miss don't add to that. At tier 9 heroics were already a face roll, last time I looked this guy was really close to that. So thats the help I'm going to give him and he deserves. You two can continue to argue.
    Last edited by Chasey; 08-02-2010 at 06:05 PM.

  14. #14
    Thats all well and good but incase you havent noticed. Dyjack is not progression tanking. hes not even finished building his set, theres no reason EH would benefit him more than avoidance in instances that were tuned and first tanked by people with 22k hp. when he gets more relevant gear, yes go EH, if he wants to make his, and his healers job easier at his current gear level. avoidance is the way to go.

    Its not productive telling someone whos just starting out to gear the way that t10 heroic icc tanks gear, its misleading and can cause problems between him and his healers. his gear just doesnt have the effective health in it to keep him alive over what avoidances would.

    Dyjack. keep up what you are doing. you are on the right track, as soon as you start switching into more 232, 245 gear, even some 226 stuff, then stamina and armor will start being more attractive to you and what you can tank.

    Im done posting on this thread due to 'not what I would do' statements. Im not recounting this information through just personal opinion, but fact. To each his own.

  15. #15
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    So at any lvl, its factual to you to have .5 more avoidance/dodge than 30 stam? Thats wonderful logic!

    And in case you didn't notice, Dyjack link no longer works nor is he findable on the armory. So what were we discussing? oh, who is more correct in dyjack's gearing choices, since there are never any upgrades in this stage in the game. His shoulders were one of the few pieces that were at lvl to enchant the correct way.

    Im done posting on this thread due to 'not what I would do' statements. Im not recounting this information through just personal opinion, but fact. To each his own.
    Please show me the where it says at any level its ok past 540 def to stack avoidance? Thats not fact. We all know that once you get crit immune there is no more fact in tanking or numbers out side of the basic raw number IE...hit, exp etc. There is no fact. There is always the way to do it and then there is the way thats comfortable for you. You have given no fact. Its been long know that avoidance is not the way to go. Even in naxx gear, block capped aside. Stam has been stacked since 3.09 hit. Thats fact!
    Last edited by Chasey; 08-02-2010 at 08:59 PM.

  16. #16
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...mmer&cn=Dyjack is his armory, it was very findable, hes the only person with that name.

    The maintankadin gearing guide that you yourself quoted is evidence towards going for avoidance first. You do realize that alot of his gear is blue dont you? he is not " A level three paladin starts with Naxx-or-better gear (iLvl 213-219) and is raiding with a guild that wants to progress through T8.5 and T9 normal mode content." yet, hes a step below that. perhaps you arent understanding the way things work at his level of gear? hes not capable of surviving huge strings of unavoided attacks and his armor and health levels cant keep him up through large attacks as well as someone in proper gear, causing healing stress. its the same reason people are theorizing that avoidance will play a bigger role in cataclysm.

    Stamina stacking is the proper thing to do in hardmodes (such as steelbreaker) and the later content where bosses hit like a truck, But you have to remember, to effectively survive, your gear has to be of a certain threshold to withstand the beatings in which people stack EH. Im not saying he shouldnt when he can, im just saying that its a bad idea right now.

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