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Thread: Gemming - Expertise and Hit Rating.

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    Gemming - Expertise and Hit Rating.

    Yes tis me, Necroshen the DW Frost Tank,

    I have been looking at my character once again and I feel like my gemming balance is all wrong. I seem to have 191 expertise and 160 hit rating (translates as 4.88% I believe).

    Someone also commented to me in game about it. I have too much expertise.
    I am looking for some advice on what I can do, Is 160 good or bad for hit rating and do I need to stack more.

    How much Expertise could I afford to lose if any?! I know I get hit rating (Nerves of Cold Steel) from my build but I am in desperate need of some guidence to ensure im optimal. I struggle with this kind of number crunching Im afraid


    Note: I forgot to add my armory. EEEK Sorry people.
    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...n&cn=Necroshen
    Last edited by Necroshen; 07-28-2010 at 12:03 AM.

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    Balance, meh; stack stam and pop in a Nightmare Tear (or a purple) to activate you meta.

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    Link armory, so we see how your expertise is spread out.

    If your character sheet says over 51 expertise SKILL, then it is too much. If you are gemming or enchanting for expertise past 26 expertise SKILL, stop doing that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Link armory, so we see how your expertise is spread out.

    If your character sheet says over 51 expertise SKILL, then it is too much. If you are gemming or enchanting for expertise past 26 expertise SKILL, stop doing that.
    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...n&cn=Necroshen

    90% of users have their character link in their profile.

    The cap for expertise is 56, not 51. He is at 27 and is fine. You have plenty of hit as well, so don't bother gemming it. If you do have threat problems, post your rotation and your friendly neighborhood DK can help you fix it.

    You DO need to fix your gems though, get all 30 stam except for the 2 gems in your helm. Also enchant cloak with 225 armor and hands with 240 armor (hit: 2% threat enchant is garbage). May also want to respec blood, unless all you do is aoe tank trash and no bosses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    May want to change your shoulder enchant to the PvP one too and you may want to put Fallen Crusader (or the one hand equivalent) on one of your axes, you have 589 defense.

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    Damn it, I saw the shoulder enchant and totally forgot to put it in
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    Damn it, I saw the shoulder enchant and totally forgot to put it in
    YESSSSSSSSSSS! Chalk one up for the math illiterate.

    Not to push my luck here, but you like the armor to gloves better then the 18 stam? I'm not an engineer so I can't get the armor, I'm just curious.

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    If I was an engineer I would take the 800 armor or whatever...but I'm not so I go with the BC armor kit of 240. It's a bit more EH, and any heavy magic fights are still going to have melee anyway, so it's good for all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    If I was an engineer I would take the 800 armor or whatever...but I'm not so I go with the BC armor kit of 240. It's a bit more EH, and any heavy magic fights are still going to have melee anyway, so it's good for all.
    Maybe I'll switch out.

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    Just for some numbers, I never actually got around to playing DW on my tank but I believe the numbers I researched was 9% hit rating and 32 expertise, as the optimal to reach soft caps. Don't ask me for details, I've forgotten and anyone can correct me if I'm wrong. Ofc, you don't have to get these if you don't have threat issues. Just the numbers I've stored on my cheatsheet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    If I was an engineer I would take the 800 armor or whatever...but I'm not so I go with the BC armor kit of 240. It's a bit more EH, and any heavy magic fights are still going to have melee anyway, so it's good for all.
    The armor to stamina conversion I've seen a lot is 11 armor equals 1 stamina. So, by going with that 240 armor is worth ~218 health. It's over +18 stamina enchant, and a small detail to begin with, but to knit pick, the HP gained from the +18 sta works against both magic and physical attacks. It's stretching the hair a bit thin, but the stamina enchant works against both magic and melee attacks.

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    8% hit for specials while dual weilding and 26 expertise is the dodge cap (aka soft cap). more expertise is always good but as far as hit not really needed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post
    Just for some numbers, I never actually got around to playing DW on my tank but I believe the numbers I researched was 9% hit rating and 32 expertise, as the optimal to reach soft caps. Don't ask me for details, I've forgotten and anyone can correct me if I'm wrong. Ofc, you don't have to get these if you don't have threat issues. Just the numbers I've stored on my cheatsheet.


    The armor to stamina conversion I've seen a lot is 11 armor equals 1 stamina. So, by going with that 240 armor is worth ~218 health. It's over +18 stamina enchant, and a small detail to begin with, but to knit pick, the HP gained from the +18 sta works against both magic and physical attacks. It's stretching the hair a bit thin, but the stamina enchant works against both magic and melee attacks.

    The tried and true numbers for caps are 8% for specials (this does not include white attacks for DW, but does for single weapon and 2h), and 26 expertise skill. This is how it's been since November 2008 when this expansion came out. The hit cap for DW white attacks is around 24%. 26 expertise removes all dodges from the table for a level 83 mob, 56 skill would do the same for parry. I don't know how you arrived at your numbers other than going from below caps right to 9% and 32 skill and just leaving it at that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    I don't know how you arrived at your numbers ...
    Thanks for clearing this, it was as much for me to get it clarified actually but I do believe I came to these numbers by reading on the mmo-champion forums and wowwiki about dual wielding.

    The mmo post is ofc long buried, but here is a quote from wowwiki:

    Note that the +19% miss chance for dual-wielding only applies to ordinary auto-attack melee attacks. It does not apply to any special attack powers that cost rage, energy, or mana -- neither instant attacks such as Sinister Strike or Stormstrike, nor on next swing attacks such as Heroic Strike, incur the dual wield miss penalty. So, with 9% +hit from gear/talents a dual-wielder will never miss with an instant attack

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    What's the date on the quote?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    http://www.wowwiki.com/Hit

    Calculating miss rate


    If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill (see types of combat skills) is less than or equal to 10, then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is:
    with two-hander: 5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill) * 0.1%
    with dual-wielding: 24% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill) * 0.1%
    If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is:
    with two-hander: 6% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10) * 0.4%
    with dual-wielding: 25% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10) * 0.4%
    Applying these formulas gives the following base miss rate for a Level 80 character with a 400 Weapon Skill:
    v. Level 80 mob: 5.0% / dual-wield: 24%
    v. Level 81 mob: 5.5% / dual-wield: 24.5%
    v. Level 82 mob: 6.0% / dual-wield: 25% (level of most heroic bosses)
    v. Level 83 mob: 8.0% / dual-wield: 27% (level of raid bosses)
    32.79 hit rating reduces your chance to miss by 1%
    Thus, if you are a Level 80 character with a Weapon Skill of 400 and no talents increasing your chance to hit, you need a Hit Rating of 263 (8.02%) to never miss a shot against a Level 83 boss (or skull mob) with a special attack or single-wield auto-attack (see hit rating cap below). What this means is that there is a big +hit benefit to keeping your Weapon Skill within 10 levels of the mobs you are trying to fight. For example, by improving your Weapon Skill from 390 to 395, you effectively reduce your chance to miss against Level 81 mobs by 2.6%. However, after getting to 395, increasing your Weapon Skill the next 5 levels, to 400, only reduces your chance to miss by an additional 0.2% (or 2.8% in total). Also, note that there is a huge jump in miss rate reduction by going from 394 to 395 Weapon Skill. This is the point where you switch from one formula to the other, and so this particular single point of Weapon Skill is worth a dramatic +1% hit against a Level 81 mob/boss.
    Melee attacks divide into two categories: auto-attacks (white attack/damage) and special attacks (yellow attack/damage). Attacking a mob from behind removes parry and block from both tables, provided the attack is more than 0.5 yards away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    It was 9% in TBC I'm pretty sure, it's 8% now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    What's the date on the quote?
    Have no idea honestly, cause tracking when the number was added to the wiki page is not appealing to me. You can have a look at the page if you want though. But I'm not surprised that it might not be completely up to date, since there are a lot of discrepancies in wowwiki.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Dual_wield

    What matters to me is that I know what the real number is and how it works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post
    Have no idea honestly, cause tracking when the number was added to the wiki page is not appealing to me. You can have a look at the page if you want though. But I'm not surprised that it might not be completely up to date, since there are a lot of discrepancies in wowwiki.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Dual_wield

    What matters to me is that I know what the real number is and how it works.
    This link is from Burning Crusade.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  19. #19
    Firstly, thank you to everyone for all the help and input that you have made to my thread, it is a real joy to see people getting involved and helping out and is one of the reason I love tankspot. So thanks to you all.

    I have no threat problems at all, my rotations and such are born from advice previously gained on these very forums and I am very happy with it

    I would like to look at putting more stamina into my build and if my hit and expertise is where it should be (as you guys ahve said) then I may swap out a good few gems for stamina ones (socket bonus dependent).

    I will make some changes and repost my findings in here.

    Cheers people, the help is appreciated very much.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Necroshen View Post
    (socket bonus dependent)
    The only socket bonus you should be concerned with is the 12 stam in your helm. No other bonus is worth it. Many people advocate hitting anything with a 9 stam bonus or higher with 2 gems or less, but honestly the net gain in avoidance or threat gain is not enough for me to justify the stam loss from not using a 30 stam. The absolute best a person can do is 30 stam in every socket but the helm. We've hit a point where someone geared like me (I stopped playing at the 15% buff) would be over 75k hp in Icecrown, and still isn't killing HLK25, so there's still point to stacking the bloody hell out of EH.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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