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Thread: The Weekly Marmot -- Cataclysm Healing & ZAM Beta Key Giveaway

  1. #1
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    The Weekly Marmot -- Cataclysm Healing & ZAM Beta Key Giveaway





    ZAM Beta Key Giveaway
    Allakhazam is giving away 50 beta keys! Check out their full post here.

    Wowhead and TankSpot will be starting our beta key giveaways soon, too, so stay tuned!

  2. #2
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    Good lookin' pup! What's his/her name?

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    NUUUU THE PUPPPY...

    ;d

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  4. #4
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    "There's this really interesting thing going on for tanks and dps, but I'm not gonna tell you about it!"

    I hate it!
    I love it!

    Great weekly marmot, really interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangea View Post
    Good lookin' pup! What's his/her name?
    That's Jack! He's a cutie and a whiney ass at the same time....

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    That puppy is pretty awesome! Definitely distracted my internet and caused a raid wipe from me disconnecting, then someone pulling aggro on sindragosa because I was disconnected, and the awesome frost breath that followed.

    Anyways I agree with your healing assessment. I never raided in classic but I raided in BC as a holy paladin, and in WotLK as a holy paladin up until Ulduar where I went prot. Now I just can do all 3 specs whatever as needed (although I'm the MT so I don't get to offspec pretty much at all anymore). In BC, I did a lot of cancel casting and flash of light spam on the raid when they needed it if the tank wasn't in danger. Also popping a mana potion when you were at 70-80% mana to have one up 2 minutes from them when you may have needed it was a pretty nice strategy.

    Perhaps they were trying to rid the dependence on mana potions by making it so you could only use 1 while in combat and adding replenishment. Back in Naxx and Uld (pre-heroic modes) mana was still kind of an issue, but you could still get away with overhealing a little more than you could in BC. Once the heroic mode gear was acquired, the inflation just really made mana a non-issue. Then it just became a game of getting the heals off as fast as possible and spamming them just in case.

    Personally as a person that plays all 3 paladin specs (on top of a couple other classes), I'd love to see how the game play in Cata changes. You can't look at the awesome new aoe heals paladins are getting and go "oh man that's going to be OP" because you probably won't have the mana to use them as much as you would now, and you would just have to use them when the situation calls for it. That seems to be exactly what they're going for in Cataclysm... using the heal that the situation calls for, or running the risk of going oom from bad decisions.

    As always... thanks for putting the changes into perspective, Lore.

  7. #7
    I'm just...still looking for the puppy wheres the puppy?!

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    re: LK healing model

    Do you think the way it ended up was there initial design going in or do you think as I do that since they made it only 1 mana pot per fight and they thought it would have a much more dramatic effect on mana so they over-compensated with replenishment and the buffs to innervate allowing it to be used on paladins and shamans, etc.



  9. #9
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    You've missed a few key points here.

    - Downranking healing was done initially to conserve mana. Before Tier 1 item and set bonuses, healing in MC was a problem for mana pools.
    - I think there was a period where Blizzard changed ranks to cost *more* mana per lower spell rank, to combat downranking of spells. This changed things a little.
    - After that, it was changed (globally) so all ranks of spells cost a % of base mana, which worked towards the same goal as above.

    Now, it's much more efficient to cast your top rank spell at all times, as you will get more healing per mana point.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    re: LK healing model

    Do you think the way it ended up was there initial design going in or do you think as I do that since they made it only 1 mana pot per fight and they thought it would have a much more dramatic effect on mana so they over-compensated with replenishment and the buffs to innervate allowing it to be used on paladins and shamans, etc.
    I can't believe that the virtually infinite mana that came about in Wrath was entirely an accident, or they would have fixed it by tweaking the numbers on replenishment. I suspect they came into Wrath wanting to get away from "healer OOM" being the theme of a raid, and just went too far to the other end of the spectrum. Now they've seen that end isn't fun either and move back toward the middle, getting back the decision making without the necessity of number crunching (and hence confusion of) just which rank is your most effective.
    I'm a tank. I like the beatings.

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    So right, cute animals are the perfect distraction.

  12. #12
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    There's a puppy! I can't remember anything else he said...

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    One thing I will actually lament when Wrath healing finally goes is the ability to easily quantify a good healer versus a bad healer. I have been leading raids since MC and one thing that always bothered me is how easily bad Healers have always been able to "hide" in raids. Since day 1 a poorly skilled tank was fairly evident and since the inception of DPS meters, DPS has been under the gun and have improved as a result. Healers, however, have always had a layer of abstraction behind which they could hide with vagaries aplenty to justify any lack of skill. Obviously skilled healers exist and have existed but the level of analysis required to ferret them out has always been fairly intensive up until wrath, and specifically ICC. Since for much of ICC healing has been basically the same as DPS (establish an optimal rotation and nail it), it's been fairly easy to line up two healers and quantitatively analyze who was good and who wasn't.

    No doubt in Wrath there will still be good and bad healers and there will still be methods with which to decide who is good and bad but it will again require far more effort to make the analysis than we've enjoyed in the later part of Wrath. As a raid leader this does concern me somewhat because a bad healer causing your raid to wipe is usually one of the more difficult problems to identify and correct on the fly. I mean if the DPS is failing and you hit some kind of enrage timer the problem(s) is/are always evident. If the tank is failing the entire raid immediately knows. If the healer is failing then it becomes muddy very quickly and every excuse in the book comes out "The tank ran out of range", "Someone didn't use a DR cooldown", "Our strategy sucks", "I wasn't given a proper healing assignment", "I had lag", "Someone hurt my feelings", "My class isn't good at this", etc etc ...

    I agree the healing changes will make healing more interesting, but as a raid leader I will certainly lament the loss of the ability to quickly and accurately meter/analyze healers. It was nice while it lasted.

  14. #14
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    You will still be able to tell who is a good healer and who is a bad one. The bad healers will constantly be running out of mana, letting the dps die etc. A good healer will ask if he isnt given a proper healing assignment and everybody else was. They will also say on vent at the time if a tank moves out of range. Its going to be the little things that determine if they are good or not. It will be just as easy but you will have to look at other things and not just the meters.

    I never liked the meters in icc anyways because if healer A and B are focusing on the tank and C is on off tank and say D is on the raid you cant tell their skill just by the meters.

  15. #15
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    Im personally hating this change. I played a resto shaman thrue classic cause i was unfortunate enough to pick a class at launch i knew nothing about. Healing classic felt like a second jobb for me, being 110% focused on my raid frames chugging down mana pots and raid leaders constantly moving shamans around from mana tide totem.

    Fact is, classic healing was a massive fail and in my point of view its 10 step backwards doing it all over again. We only downranked because mana pools wasnt good enough for the encounters. popping pots and rune stones moving shamans with tide around and down ranking was bad game design. And quite frankly im surprised they now think thats good design.

    I still play my resto shaman from time to time and i usally go close to oom on normal fights. But then again im haste stacked. Never done HM's with him but im pretty shure id go oom on those.
    Meh maybee i like games to be fun or easymode if you wanna call it that.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    One thing I will actually lament when Wrath healing finally goes is the ability to easily quantify a good healer versus a bad healer. I have been leading raids since MC and one thing that always bothered me is how easily bad Healers have always been able to "hide" in raids. Since day 1 a poorly skilled tank was fairly evident and since the inception of DPS meters, DPS has been under the gun and have improved as a result. Healers, however, have always had a layer of abstraction behind which they could hide with vagaries aplenty to justify any lack of skill. Obviously skilled healers exist and have existed but the level of analysis required to ferret them out has always been fairly intensive up until wrath, and specifically ICC. Since for much of ICC healing has been basically the same as DPS (establish an optimal rotation and nail it), it's been fairly easy to line up two healers and quantitatively analyze who was good and who wasn't.

    No doubt in Wrath there will still be good and bad healers and there will still be methods with which to decide who is good and bad but it will again require far more effort to make the analysis than we've enjoyed in the later part of Wrath. As a raid leader this does concern me somewhat because a bad healer causing your raid to wipe is usually one of the more difficult problems to identify and correct on the fly. I mean if the DPS is failing and you hit some kind of enrage timer the problem(s) is/are always evident. If the tank is failing the entire raid immediately knows. If the healer is failing then it becomes muddy very quickly and every excuse in the book comes out "The tank ran out of range", "Someone didn't use a DR cooldown", "Our strategy sucks", "I wasn't given a proper healing assignment", "I had lag", "Someone hurt my feelings", "My class isn't good at this", etc etc ...

    I agree the healing changes will make healing more interesting, but as a raid leader I will certainly lament the loss of the ability to quickly and accurately meter/analyze healers. It was nice while it lasted.
    I can't tell you how much I disagree with this statement. The bottom line is that what separates a good healer from a bad is not how much healing they put out, but are they healing the right people with the right spell at the right time. Trying to top healing meters is not necessarily effective healing. Doing your assigned job and not letting people die is. In the new model, there will be much better ways to judge a healer, it just requires a little more digging. I play a resto druid and when I'm in a raid with other trees, I don't look at healing numbers as much as I do spell selection. For instance, if I see a tree that never uses Swiftmend (and there are lots of them), I use that as more of a indication than pure HPS numbers.

    The model right now has escalated with every content patch so healing has become about spamming a few buttons to keep up with the massive incoming damage to both raid and tanks. It's not about decision making as much as it is about pressing as many buttons as fast as you can. I don't really want my healing to feel like DPS'ing and in a lot of ways it has become that. Press your buttons as fast as you can and push out as much HPS as you can. With the change healing becomes a decision making process and I like that. I like the thought that I have to learn a fight from a damage pattern point of view, learn when I should innervate or pot, learn when I can hold off on a heal to get a better heal:mana ratio and when I need to heal now, learn how long I can hold of on Wild Growth so that I can maximize the value of it. These are all very compelling changes for me and makes healing a distinct niche again. I think all these factors will actually make it much easier to separate good healers from bad, it'll just require a little more understanding of what healing is about.

  17. #17
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    Classic healing was fail if you wasn't a priest same as classic tanking was fail if you weren't a warrior.

    BREAKING NEWS!
    Lore is growing a mustache(and is right, again).

    Healing was much more cerebral when it came to planning you mana. My best example is Anub'rekhan in classic. There were basically two assignments. Tank healing(which involved running after the tank during Insect Swarm...most of the youngins don't know you had to do that) and the other one was raid healing while spikes and adds and bugs were all over the place. For a raid healer this meant a period of calm during the boss nuking phase. I was usually assigned to raid healing and here's how it went.
    I used my most spirit heavy gear(yeah, I'm quite sure I've mentioned Arlokk's snake staff out of ZG somewhere...glowing green) and during the boss nuking phase I wanded. While watching like an eagle if somebody tried something stupid. During the add nuking phase I exploded in a flash of holy light, pumping out nearly all my mana in nearly only one phase. Eat felfood, quaff mana potion. Repeat. Loot boss. This was a very hard encounter where many, many, many things could go wrong(and did).
    This was actually exciting.
    And we looked down on healers who had more than 30% overheal.

    In WotLK, the button mashers got hold of the healing game, unsurprisingly sucked at managing mana but were great at HPS(and reaching levels of 60%+ overheal without repercussions). I think (actually hope) those players will hate healing in Cata, but in my opinion with that type of mindset they are better off as DPS anyway. This expansion made me despise Paladin healers and anybody who tried to argue there was any skill whatsoever involved when they point out their HPS. Nope. 60% overheal, 0 decurses, fail throughout.

    I know I will be back in my element with the next expansion and I really think Blizz remembers what was good about healing in vanilla. Just not the farming felfoods and mana potions. That wasn't.

    ....ooooh! Look! A puppy!

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyoki View Post
    You will still be able to tell who is a good healer and who is a bad one. The bad healers will constantly be running out of mana, letting the dps die etc. A good healer will ask if he isnt given a proper healing assignment and everybody else was. They will also say on vent at the time if a tank moves out of range. Its going to be the little things that determine if they are good or not. It will be just as easy but you will have to look at other things and not just the meters.
    Nothing is as easy as looking at meters and until the later half of this expansion looking at meters for healing was more or less completely useless. Indeed even now you have to be careful when looking at them but this is true of even DPS (e.g. can't cleanly compare ranged to melee on Blood Queen). Of course meters are not perfect but they are quick and dirty and useful for DPS ... and have as of late been useful for healing (indeed not perfect, but at least useful). Now they're going back to useless and it will be back to in-depth WoL analysis to truly pick out the horribad and the awesome. Having lead raids and analyzed performance in BC and Vanilla I can tell you it was a nice change while it lasted to have very easy access to relatively accurate analysis of healing performance.

    Of course all of that applies mostly to 25s, obviously most analysis is redundant and unnecessary in 10 mans (it's very quickly obvious who isn't pulling their weight). Anyhow it's a small point, and since I do often times play a healer I am happy to have the opportunity to be a bit less spammy and a bit more selective about my healing ... all of my comments thusfar have really just been the raid leader in me crying out ... I freely acknowledge I am looking forward to healing the next expansion.

  19. #19
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    Double posting to reply to the subject of bad healers.

    In WotLK it was quite easy to spot a bad healer.
    Top of the Healing Done list.
    0 decurses.
    60% overheal.
    Stuck to his assignment(wasting everybodies time for 60% of the time).
    People dying left and right.

    HPS(which is a much aBS metric as DPS, total healing done/damage done are much more important) isn't the right way to measure if a healer lives up to it. You also have to watch overheal(which roughly and inaccurately translates to "should have healed somebody else or used the wrong spell"...you'll have to break down overheal to the individual spells involved). You also have to watch if the "healer" has yet discovered that debuff aren't actually good for the debuffee(read, he decursed). You also have to watch if the healer can manage his mana and keep his calm when there is no healing needed. Only timing and choice of healing target is hard to measure. Effectiveness isn't. And HPS doesn't equate to effectiveness.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mwawka View Post
    I can't tell you how much I disagree with this statement.
    Slow down, I never said this was the "best" way to heal or that I enjoyed it ... I simply said it made analysis of performance easier. That said my 25 man guild has cleared all of ICC HM and our raid healers pretty much just smash out HPS as much as possible (and the tank healers just smash out heals). Sure there's *some* finesse to it but it's not some mystical art as most healers want people to believe. It never was, just before it was more strategic as you danced in and out of FSR and cast-canceled or downranked (Healing Touch Rank 4 ... I was a druid healer). Yeah it was a different game and I too liked it better back then ... I was not making a statement about which way was better I was simply stating that as a raid leader its much easier to make a quick and dirty analysis via meters than having to dig deeper to inspect quality. Quantitative analysis is much simpler ... that was my only point.

    I am very happy about the changes ... can't say that enough ... and I'm glad Lore breaks them down for all of us to haggle over.

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