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Thread: The Prot Warrior QDTG

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    The Prot Warrior QDTG

    or Quick and Dirty Threat Guide.

    ****DISCLAIMER****
    There is a very good reason why this is a Quick and Dirty Threat Guide. It is not complete and does not go real in depth. Please read the WHOLE thread for more information. There are great alternative tips and points that I don't cover in the OP and much more in depth explanations and math to help understand the "why" further.


    There have been a lot of posts recently about warriors complaining about threat (or lack thereof). This is a quick guide on how you can fix this without changing a single piece of gear or gems.

    The overall mantra is that spec, glyphs, and rotation are enough to maintain threat without gearing or gemming for any threat stats like hit and expertise at all. This is absolutely true.

    See this post: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?65700-Expertise-Hit-and-your-Threat.-What-it-means-to-all-Tanks.-(Current-for-3.3.3)
    And this post: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...225#post427225
    (see Draedor's sig, lol)

    However, I realized that even in my guide I have all the elements for this, but I don't really lay it out.

    How do I know that this is possible? Well quite simply because I tank with low threat stats only gearing for EHP and hold threat just fine. Threat is not like DPS in that you want to do as much as possible, rather threat is like outrunning a bear. You don't have to outrun the bear, just your friend =P. As long as you are doing enough threat that your DPS aren't passing you (and preferably have a comfortable margin to work with) then you're fine on threat, and this CAN be done with only spec, glyphs, and rotation.

    Talent Specialization:

    The staple threat spec is also the staple warrior tank spec. Now there is another more defensive warrior spec, but for a lot of situations it simply isn't needed. If you choose that spec then your threat will most likely be pretty terrible because it leaves out a lot of key threat talents. Instead I HIGHLY recommend that people go with the threat spec and gear for EHP/Survivability, you'll get much better mileage that way.

    Here is the typical spec, I'll walk you through it and why you're picking those threat talents:

    Quick note: as I go down these I will be covering only the threat talents and why you're picking them up. The other talents are survival talents are are very critical.

    First we'll cover the arms tree because this is probably the most important tree as far as threat goes:

    1st tier: 3/3 Imp heroic strike. Heroic strike is your main dump, as you have the rage you want to ensure that it is ALWAYS que'd up and 3/3 imp HS allows you to do that. HS should be your #1 damage dealer for most fights (at least ones where you're either always taking damage or tanking something for the whole duration) so there's no reason not to buff it here.

    Also: rend sucks for prot warriors, don't bother with imp rend or even having rend on your bars.

    2nd tier: this tier is the most unimportant because all 3 talents are pretty meh. The best talent though is improved charge. If you have 3/3 focused rage and 3/3 imp HS and 2/2 imp charge, this basically makes you can que a HS as you charge or that you'll definitely have the rage to get off a solid shield slam and devastate as you open. As I'll discuss later the opening moves are the most important.

    3rd tier: this tier is absolutely critical. Impale and deep wounds are AMAZING threat talents, the best in any teir. Impale makes those massive revenge and shield slam crits do even MORE threat. Deep wounds is a huge part of warrior damage and it's usually around 7% of a prot warrior's damage done, sometimes more. That's a huge threat increase even if it doesn't seem like it. These talents are NECESSARY for a threat spec, I cannot stress that enough.

    Fury tree:
    The only three points you really want here for threat are Armed to the Teeth, and they're pretty significant. If a tank sits around 35k armor (pretty typical tbh, usually higher at this point if you're gearing properly) then that's almost 600 extra AP. Since AP increases your tooltip weapon damage this means that AP scales with almost all of our moves including devastate, deep wounds, heroic strike, shockwave, and revenge. Basically every ability except shield slam scales with AP, so this is a massive talent. pick it up.

    Now many might argue that cruelty (usually 2 points b/c of the limitations of the prot tree) is better to pick up, but I strongly disagree. Cruelty is actually a very small amount of threat compared to the other talents warriors can pick up in the prot tree. There's an article about it somewhere but I don't have time to find it at the moment.

    Protection:
    Tier 1:
    3/3 tclap: necessary for AoE threat for obvious reasons.
    Shield specalization. This is where there are some optional points. You need to do 2/5 at least to get down the tree, but what you do with the other 3 points is a toss up between shield spec and focused rage. And with those it's kind of 6 of one half a dozen of the other. It comes down to this:

    For rage EFFICIENCY, Focused rage is better when tanking 1 thing. For multiple targets shield spec is better and it's still decent rage regen. Some argue it's better because it's when you need it (aka you get lucky avoidance streaks and you get rage starved) or that rage isn't a problem anyways and so you might as well be able to block 3% more of the time. These are legitimate arguments and it comes down to playstyle. I personally clip the rage minimum for HS really close and find that focused rage is better for me, others say shield spec is better. Either point distribution won't get you killed (small caveat being H-Anub25 add tanking, but that spec is COMPLETELY different, and so is the gear setup).

    Tier 3: Incite: 3/3 must pick up. 15% crit for your highest damage ability (heroic strike)? Yes please. This also helps a ton with AoE threat with thunderclap and cleave.

    Tier 4: Imp Revenge and Shield Mastery: Absolutely necessary. Imp revenge is 60% increased threat to one of your biggest threat dealers and shield master increases your BV by 30% and BV is the only thing that modifies shield slam damage, your biggest threat (but not DPS) ability.

    Tier 5: Nothing, ignore this tree

    Tier 6: Conc blow has lost its luster, but you need it to get vigilance, which hasn't. Gag order is necessary because it increases the damage of your biggest threat dealer by 10%.

    Tier 7: well 1h weapon spec is the only thing here and it is massive. Get 5/5. This is another huge talent.

    Tier 8: imp dstance is pretty much a no brainer anyways, but also increases total damage with enrage. Get it, and get Vigilance for sure. The proper use of vigilance can make or break your threat output. If you put it on the highest aggro producer or the highest aggro producer without an aggro dump this can be huge. In some situations you can use it on the other take, and the utility of this ability becomes crazy good. Creative use of vigilance is key. I frequently will toss it around between DPS that start to creep up on me. As for focused rage: see tier1. I like it a LOT, some don't.

    For the rest I'll simply go over what not to get, basically the x factor here is safeguard, unless you need it for a specific fight, don't get it and fill out the rest of the talents. Why should be pretty self explanatory except for maybe damage shield, but damage shield (dispite appearances) is actually REALLY good, especially for AoE threat and especially if you are popping shield block at the right times.

    Glyphs:

    Threat glyphs are pretty straight forward:
    Blocking: 10% increased BV that adds to your post powerful threat ability. This glyph is highly underrated but I highly recommend it. It is both a very good defensive and offensive glyph, especially while shield block is up.

    Devastate: modifies the innate threat modifier of this ability because it adds the sunder modifier twice, even if the mob is at 5 stacks of sunder. This is probably the best raw threat glyph we have and is simply amazing. If you're having threat issues, this should be the first glyph you try out.

    Glyphs that might work:
    Taunt: increased chance to make sure taunt lands if someone does pull aggro
    Vigilance: If you are a prot with Vig then this one can help, but I personally think other glyphs are better.
    Mocking Blow: Great snap threat and has a fixate if you need it to wait for taunt to come back up.
    Cleaving: for AoE

    Glyphs that won't do much:
    HS - you'd think it'd be good, but frankly it's not. If you are rage dumping with heroic strike you have the rage to spare so 10 more on a crit doesn't end up helping.
    Revenge - HS is your rage dump, you use it when you have it and frankly revenge just doesn't help that much. Imo if you are low on rage you don't WANT to HS because the white damage gives you rage to use higher damage abilities so really if you use glyph of revenge and hit an HS when you're low on rage because it's free, you're really actually losing out on rage and it's better to let a white hit through than to keep queing HS.

    Rotation/Raid:

    This is probably the most important part because sometimes people can setup correctly but if they're not executing their abilities properly than the setup doesn't matter at all.

    At the top I just want to point out that heroic strike is NOT ON THE GLOBAL COOLDOWN. Heroic strike takes the place of your melee swing and therefore you can keep it queued while following the rotation of your other abilities. Proper use of heroic strike is key and you might be surprised of how many people think that HS and Devastate or what not are mutually exclusive when they're not (provided you have the rage).

    The Pull:
    This is the most important part because snap threat is so key. Once you get your threat lead the rest is gravy for the most part. A lot of people think you should start getting 5x sunders up right away. In terms of threat this is completely wrong. What you should do when you charge in is 2 fold: 1st: if you have a charge/heroic throw macro, use it if you won't be needing heroic throw soon. 2nd: SHIELD SLAM. This is an extremely high aggro ability and especially if you get lucky and it crits (but a crit isn't necessary) you will pull a ton of snap threat. Get this out first, then hit revenge or devatsate if revenge hasn't lit up yet, then continue with your rotation. Shockwave is also extremely good in a lot of situations. If you get an unlucky parry or dodge or something than a good backup plan is to hit mocking blow. It has very good snap threat and gives you a small fixate window to hit a couple more high threat abilities.

    What the raid does during the pull: The raid needs to work with the tank, not against the tank. If DPS start off IMMEDIATELY with huge high aggro abilities, of course they're gonna pull especially if the tank gets an unlucky parry or something. DPS don't have to wait long really, only like 2 or 3 seconds and sometimes zero seconds if they're just ramping up their rotation and they'll be fine. But most importantly tricks of the trading and MDing the tank is extremely important. Once the tank gets that lead then the DPS don't have to worry about riding the tank's ass in threat and can pretty much go all out, allowing for really quick bloodlusts/burst streaks and increasing overall raid DPS much more than 2 rogues tricksing eachother.

    General rotation: There's actually 2 rotations, and really they're more like priorities while playing wack-a-mole than a rotation. The main threat priority goes:
    Shockwave -> Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Devastate
    However, the main DPS priority goes:
    Shockwave -> Revenge -> Shield Slam -> Devastate

    Shield slam is the best for both threat and damage for everything when shield block is up.

    The threat difference is very minimal but imo if you are having threat problems start by prioritizing shield slam first and as you get comfortable change it up to revenge.

    All the while make sure to keep up HS as long as possible. Since I have 3/3 focused rage I'll let my rage dip as low as 20 before I'll stop queuing HS, others say 30, some say 40. Whatever works best for your playstyle though, imo, but a high uptime on heroic strike is critical.

    The proper use of shield block is also absolutely critical. I'm a huge proponent that the proper use of this ability makes the difference between a good warrior and a great warrior. Using it defensively is key, but using it at the right time offensively (especially at the begining of a fight) can be a BIG help to warrior threat.

    I hope this helps! Let me know if there's something I should add. If there's something I missed it might be in my guide in my sig.
    Last edited by Aggathon; 07-30-2010 at 11:20 AM.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  2. #2
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    Good idea @ post. I would also mention warriors are the swiss army knives of tanks, and the numbers that you pulls will change the order significantly (unlike druids.. They can Swipe or Swipe or... Swipe)

    One Target
    Heroic Throw->Charge+HS->SS(+HS)->Revenge if it's up->Devastate(+HS)

    4+ Targets
    Heroic Throw on a Caster->Charge+Cleave->TClap+Backpedal->Shockwave the ensuing cone+Tab-cleave->Demo Shout while they are stunned->etc.

    You can change things up. Shockwave is open to debate, sometimes I don't use it in heroics in favour of Shield Block (w/ a SBV Set) to capitalize off Damage Shield (20-30% of my damage with sufficient numbers of mobs), and then Shockwave+Demo Shout after I establish threat.

    Every little bit counts. If you are struggling with aoe threat, ask for thorns and ret aura.

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    I prefer the batman of tanks =P
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    General rotation: There's actually 2 rotations, and really they're more like priorities while playing wack-a-mole than a rotation. The main threat priority goes:
    Shockwave -> Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Devastate
    However, the main DPS priority goes:
    Revenge -> Shockwave -> Shield Slam -> Devastate
    If this is wrong someone correct me, I think SW might still be at top, but revenge is actually our highest DPS ability now. The threat difference is very minimal but imo if you are having threat problems start by prioritizing shield slam first and as you get comfortable change it up to revenge.
    Shockwave is #1 for damage as well. Concussion Blow is #3 for threat. While Shield Block is up, Shield Slam is highest threat and damage.

    Also: Only remove Rend from your bars if you don't pvp.

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    I hear threat is really important in PvP =P I'll update the rotation. I'm pretty sure devastate passed conc blow in threat though in like 3.3.3 or something (maybe that's only while glyphed) can we get a confirmation on this?
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    Is wartotems spread sheet still current? I'm pretty sure that un-glyphed devastate is still more threat then conc blow.

    I think something people don't really consider is how important spamming your keys is; watch kriparrians video.



    Yes it's about DPS, yes it's kinda long. Just replace DPS with TPS and 90% of the concepts still apply. Watching this video is well worth the time it will explain many of the concepts of really high dps and tps. Since you only have to run faster then your buddy: Playing well is how you do enough threat to not need threat stats. It's a really informative video. It explains why spamming keys is important, and why gear really doesn't matter as much as play.

    Also I experienced a 6-10% increase in TPS by setting up Power Auras and Ghost Pulse. Knowing exactly which key to be spamming is critical. Hitting a devastate instead of shield slam might not sound like a lot of lost TPS; but it is. You then have to wait an extra 1.5s for that shield slam to come off cooldown next time. Say you do that every second time Shield slam comes off cooldown... over a 4 minute fight that's 20 times you make that mistake... or 5 SHIELD SLAMS instead of devastates. Not a huge deal right? What about every time you revenge you do the same thing? Now over the course of a 4minute fight you've done 10 less shield slams..
    I'm pretty bad at explaining this difference and why a tight rotation is soo important, maybe some one else should try, I've just made a wall of text that makes sense to me, but may not be comprehend-able by others.
    Regardless hitting the right button at the right time makes a difference. Power-auras and/or ghost pulse can make it easier to know when to hit the right button at the right time. For me it was a 6-10% threat increase.
    Last edited by drae; 07-26-2010 at 05:05 PM.

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    Shouldn't the pull be

    Que up Heroic Strike, Charge(shield block while charging), Shield Slam?

    The purpose is two fold maybe even three if you some times get over eager and out range your healers.

    1. Increased Shield Slam damage higher threat

    2. Guarantees that Revenge will be available

    3. Maybe give your healers enough breathing room to get in range if you are a tank of the Road Runner variety : P

    The video may be somewhat longish but it is spot on and full of useful information.
    Last edited by Creelos; 07-26-2010 at 08:05 PM.
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    I don't like queing up HS at the begining, that's your sustained threat button not your burst threat button, I'd rather be sure I had the rage for ss/dev/revenges before I start hitting HS, but I'll probably hit it on my second melee swing.

    As for shield block, you can, which is what I advocate, but if you have glyph of blocking it's not active until after you shield slam, so you can get more threat by going shield slam -> rotation until SS is back up -> shield block -> SS -> rotation, etc. etc.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    The point of queing it up on the charge is more the function of three specials in a row so no glancing blows all full on threat (assuming they hit)

    Rage should be a non issue since you are charging and if it is you can always bloodrage then charge.

    The first shield slam is not going to be affected by any damage modifier if shield block is not used, and for burst threat I prefer to have my first shield slam hit as hard as it can.

    None of you know me around here, since I have just started posting, so I will mention that I am not attempting to argue with you just discuss tanking strat.

    Really at the level most of us are tanking we have a misdirect and tricks on the pull. So unless all we do is auto attack for the first 10 seconds we will have upwards of 100k threat on the pull any way.
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    True, and imo really the main thing here is to get out a good shield slam out front. Don't waste your time stacking sunders etc. just start with your high threat abilities out of the gate. If you have the rage to pull off a 3 burst combo like that then go for it. Playstyles change between players and that seems like a really good idea, imo.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    The people who are having threat issues are

    1) Pugging, or
    2) Have no rogues or hunters, which is surprising even in 10 man. I am thinking devs assume at least one, much like replenishment
    and
    3) Are probably a bit undergeared, so their margin was small to begin with, and are sticking to their high threat-low DPS rotations instead of using high DPS rotations. Shield Slam is an excellent example of high threat low dps, which doesn't scale well with the ICC buff (which, I feel is dumb).

    They should review http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...-threat-values to get an idea of which DPS moves to try out and see if it helps.

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    Reserved for future thoughts as i compile them.

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    new info... must process....

    results:

    new keystroke priority. more threat. i like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    2) Have no rogues or hunters, which is surprising even in 10 man. I am thinking devs assume at least one, much like replenishment
    I've been running with zero replenishment & zero heroism for the last 3 months on my 10man hardmode group. Now lately i've also lost my misdirect too.
    For this reason i always assume i will not be benefiting from any raidbuffs.

    The 10man format can be pretty fickle in what buffs you can & cannot get. Especially for those raidleaders advocating caster-dps-heavy raids. I think we'll see this issue popping up more & more come cataclysm.

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    I've been looking into this lately and done some testing and theory crafting, I'm not saying it's perfect and I would also be interested to hear of any suggestions and possible errors in my work. If you want to see where I'm coming from on my points it can be found here:
    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...es-spreadsheet

    There are a few areas where my work differs a little from yours (but I'm not saying I am definitely right ) As i understand it:

    1) Shield block value 'multipliers', unlike a lot of other multipliers are actually additive. Meaning that talents like shield mastery and things like shield block are not quite as effective in combination as you would expect. For example, if you have a base block value of 1000 and then get the shield mastery talent (30%) and use shield block (100%) your block value will be 1000 x (1 (base) + 0.3 (shield mastery) + 1 (shield block)) = 2300 rather than 1000 x 1.3 x 2 = 2600 as you might expect. This means that the overall percentage (thinking multiplicatively, which probably isn't a word!) increase in BV you get from the block glyph and shield mastery is actually less when you use shield block.

    2) The priority list for threat may be different depending on your gear, for example both revenge and shield slam's damage scale quite differently and both of their threat values also scale differently with respect to damage. Things like having 2pc 10 or not may reverse SS and revenge in the priority list for threat (it really depends on a lot of things like raid buffs, talents and glyphs and block value items). However, what I haven't done is any kind of clever probability for lost S&B procs or pushback on revenge/SS so it may well be the case that SS is prioritised over revenge in some or all cases where revenge does more threat in a simple swing vs. swing comparison. I know that some guides during the course of the expansion have placed revenge above SS so there may be something to this.

    3) I'm not at all sure how they work but it it's worth mentioning the drs on shield block value with regards to SS damage. They have been nerfed twice now and in most situations it will not affect the results in tanking gear but it might with high block value sets, particularly with shield block up.

    4) The glyph of devastate doesn't work quite how you describe, afaik, it doesn't really have a 'sunder' threat component but an innate value of it's own that is different to sunder's. It is the damage component of devastate that is affected by the number of sunders but from my testing, the damage once 5 sunders is up is the same whether you have the glyph or not (and I suspect is also the case when applying them from my limited testing but obviously you will reach 5 sunders % therefore more damage faster with the glyph).

    Devastate's threat is equal to damage + (315 + 5% AP) unglyphed and damage + (630 + 10% AP) glyphed so the innate component is doubled by the glyph but it isn't really related to sunder (which still does not scale with AP afaik, didn't seem much point in testing it much though).

    5) I think that with high APs e.g. when fully raid buffed in ICC gear that shockwave actually does more damage generally than a shield block shield slam, however, this is purely going from the spreadsheet. Shield slam scales relatively worse than other things with raid buffs as it does not benefit from AP buffs at all but everything else does. SS relative to shockwave would depend on your expertise and hit rating but afaik shockwave cannot be dodged or parried so on average, considering the hit table, shockwave will do higher damage than even a shield block shield slam if you are in full ICC gear and raid buffed.

    6) Conc blow may or may not be part of the rotation depending on the conditions, for instance, in my gear in ICC, fully buffed conc blow does slightly more threat than devastate but it may not for all warriors. There is also a difference between using shock wave and conc blow on the global before SS comes off cd and not as you do not lose any threat from a lost S&B proc if SS is coming up next anyway (assuming rage is not an issue).

    7) One other small point of note, it appeared that in certain conditions, as revenge is on a 5 second cd, that you would actually do more threat on certain cycles depending on what was available if you actually used revenge, then 2 more globals and waited 0.5 seconds to use revenge again as it comes off cd rather than filling the global with a lower threat ability and pushing revenge back by a second. I'd have to recheck as I think I have updated the spreadsheet to correct an error in devastate's threat since I found those conditions though but there may be a case for waiting 0.5 seconds in some situations. I think if there was it would be rather small print and I suspect that since correcting devastate's formula that it isn't true anyway.

    I'd be interested to hear about people's opinions on these points though and why they disagree if they do or why my spreadsheet may be wrong.

    I saw someone mentioned Wartotem's spreadsheet, I'm sure it is a great tool and I compared it to mine but I have a query regarding it as to whether it is calculating buffed stats correctly when the 'vitality' talent is checked and as all of us raid with this talent, I'm not sure it is entirely accurate. I may be wrong of course.
    Last edited by Delmonte; 07-28-2010 at 05:34 AM.

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    1) Shield block value 'multipliers', unlike a lot of other multipliers are actually additive. Meaning that talents like shield mastery and things like shield block are not quite as effective in combination as you would expect. For example, if you have a base block value of 1000 and then get the shield mastery talent (30%) and use shield block (100%) your block value will be 1000 x (1 (base) + 0.3 (shield mastery) + 1 (shield block)) = 2300 rather than 1000 x 1.3 x 2 = 2600 as you might expect. This means that the overall percentage (thinking multiplicatively, which probably isn't a word!) increase in BV you get from the block glyph and shield mastery is actually less when you use shield block.
    I keep re-reading this paragraph and it still doesn't make sense to me. Shield block modifies your shield block value by doubling it (100%) and when it doubles the base amount, it affects all of the others so it would then be (2000)*1.3*other modifiers

    I also don't see why this matters when shield slam is the highest threat ability to begin with, especially since in (3.3.4 I think? or it might have been in a sub 3.3.3 patch) it got an innate +30% threat modifier on top of everything.

    2) The priority list for threat may be different depending on your gear, for example both revenge and shield slam's damage scale quite differently and both of their threat values also scale differently with respect to damage. Things like having 2pc 10 or not may reverse SS and revenge in the priority list for threat (it really depends on a lot of things like raid buffs, talents and glyphs and block value items). However, what I haven't done is any kind of clever probability for lost S&B procs or pushback on revenge/SS so it may well be the case that SS is prioritised over revenge in some or all cases where revenge does more threat in a simple swing vs. swing comparison. I know that some guides during the course of the expansion have placed revenge above SS so there may be something to this.
    The difference is that SS's threat modifiers are better. There are several abilities that allow it to scale anyways, so it doesn't really matter about gear. You have to hit REALLY hard with revenge to make it be better against single targets than shield slam, and if you have the 2pc shield slam wins out hands down. If you're talking about DPS then that's different, because revenge does do better DPS than shield slam.


    3) I'm not at all sure how they work but it it's worth mentioning the drs on shield block value with regards to SS damage. They have been nerfed twice now and in most situations it will not affect the results in tanking gear but it might with high block value sets, particularly with shield block up.
    Since there's pretty much no SBV on current gear, this isn't really an issue.


    4) The glyph of devastate doesn't work quite how you describe, afaik, it doesn't really have a 'sunder' threat component but an innate value of it's own that is different to sunder's. It is the damage component of devastate that is affected by the number of sunders but from my testing, the damage once 5 sunders is up is the same whether you have the glyph or not (and I suspect is also the case when applying them from my limited testing but obviously you will reach 5 sunders % therefore more damage faster with the glyph).

    Devastate's threat is equal to damage + (315 + 5% AP) unglyphed and damage + (630 + 10% AP) glyphed so the innate component is doubled by the glyph but it isn't really related to sunder (which still does not scale with AP afaik, didn't seem much point in testing it much though).
    The innate threat is the innate threat from Sunder armor when you devastate, so really you could call it the threat from sunder or the threat from devastate, it's the same thing. The innate "sunder" threat doesn't scale with AP, but as you even posted in the paragraph above, the threat from devastate obviously does scale quite well with AP.


    5) I think that with high APs e.g. when fully raid buffed in ICC gear that shockwave actually does more damage generally than a shield block shield slam, however, this is purely going from the spreadsheet. Shield slam scales relatively worse than other things with raid buffs as it does not benefit from AP buffs at all but everything else does. SS relative to shockwave would depend on your expertise and hit rating but afaik shockwave cannot be dodged or parried so on average, considering the hit table, shockwave will do higher damage than even a shield block shield slam if you are in full ICC gear and raid buffed.
    That's why SW is always on the top, but for pulls I use SB as an opener because while SW can't be dodged or parried, you can straight up miss the target with it (as in angle yourself wrong and your shockwave doesn't go towards the boss, especially with funky hitboxes this is sometimes an issue), on a pull where positioning is crucial I always prefer SS.


    Overall I just feel like you're really undervaluing SS. It has a lot of innate modifiers and with the T10 2pc bonus it's just really really good. Damage isn't everything, threat is more important, imo, though some may disagree with me there.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    1,900
    Damage isn't everything, threat is more important, imo, though some may disagree with me there.
    If you hit an enrage timer because there isn't enough DPS, increase your threat. If you still hit the enrage timer and nobody is anywhere near your threat, your DPS need to work harder. Tanks tank, DPS... well... DPS. If you ceiling them out with threat that is your fault.

    I do the least damage of any of the tanks I run with. I have the highest threat output. (I agree with Agg)
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    47
    Ok, It's gonna be messy if I quote you quoting me so I'll answer the points numbering them to match up:

    1) Shield bock value multipliers: Whilst they are written to imply that they are multiplicative, unless the character sheet and recount are incorrect (I carefully tested damage using recount and my formulae) they are in fact not and you can check this in game. If your character has shield mastery, note your shield block value on your character sheet and push shield block, your block value will not double, it will be equal to your block value/1.3 x (1+0.3+1). This is what someone from EJ posted in one of the threads and this is how it works on the character sheet, from my testing of predicted damages I believe the values on the sheet to be correct and not a display bug but more testing may prove me wrong. If however, you do not have shield mastery, the block value on your character sheet is the base block value and using shield block will double that number.

    If you want to check that the displayed numbers are correct you need to put the values into a simulation spreadsheet and hammer away on the dummy. I'll admit that I may need to spend more time collecting shield block numbers to be 100% certain but I collected enough and the difference in predicted and observed values with both ways of using multipliers was substantial enough for me to be fairly satisfied. The other thing that you can do is find a mob that hits hard enough (i.e. more than your block value) and see how much you block, I'll spend a little more time looking into this, I suspect this would have been how it was tested over on EJ.

    Shield slam is not always the highest threat ability, particularly without t10, all the formulae are in my post and you can see how both of their damage and threat scale with different stats and buffs. However I would be interested if anyone can prove any of these formulae to be incorrect, I did test them all. There are a few items with bock value on them in ICC even though there are not lots, it's more important for people who may not be in end game gear or in a block set for tanking anub for example.

    2) Fully buffed in 277 gear with the 30% ICC buff you will hit very hard with revenge, enough for it on a simple swing vs swing comparison to do more threat than SS if you do not have t10 (depending on other things), using the formulae that people have proposed (and are in my thread) and I have made an effort to verify them all. Basically, revenge scales with more raid buffs than shield slam but shield slam's threat increases more per point of damage increase and this balance can tip either way depending on circumstances.

    3) Yeah I agree, it was just a small caveat really or for people who stack it for Anub or PvP, I doubt it makes much, if an difference under normal tanking circumstances.

    4) Mm yeah, I think it's a little confusing to call it 'sunder' threat when it works a little differently but it's really just a question of language and not a big deal.

    5) I'm not undervaluing shield slam at all it's just you said that 'shield block shield slam is on top for both damage and threat', it's under your priorities lists, but I believe shockwave can do more damage than shield slam with block up. Don't get me wrong though, I love shield slam and shield block. Again this will be influenced by nature of block value multipliers, if anyone can clear this up for certain it would be great.

    it's cool that you disagree though, it's an interesting topic and if you have evidence to contradict my formulae and spreadsheet or can spot errors in it I'd be interested to know. Any data on the nature of block value multipliers being additive or multiplicative would be great, there are some tooltip errors for warrior (a few for rend off the top of my head) but I believe that it's not the case for block value. It's not a question of me being right and you being wrong, it's just what I have observed differently when looking into this.
    Last edited by Delmonte; 07-28-2010 at 11:44 AM.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    47
    Bleh, trying to test block value now now, sodding critical block talent!

    Edit: Ok done a quick test in FoS heroic, using a warrior without critical block and low enough block value that I get hit for more than the block value on my sheet when block is up. I have shield mastery, and my character sheet says 894 for block value and I block every hit for 894. With shield block up my character sheet says 1582 block value which is (894/1.3) x 2.3 and I block every hit for 1582, if shield block was multiplicative with shield mastery you would expect a block value of 1788 (894 x 2). IIrc blocking glyph was the same.
    Last edited by Delmonte; 07-29-2010 at 06:35 AM.

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