HL vs FoL?

[Sezja]

Hello, I'm Sezja.

I have been raiding recently as a HL pally. I have 28k mana unbuffed, and I've been working towards more. In raids I obviously spam HL, with a couple FoLs thrown in (which seems pointless, but I'll get to that).

I am placed as tank healer always, and every raid I've gone to I do a good job. My HLs do a good job of keeping tanks alive, problem is.. I feel kinda useless on encounters where there is a lot of raid heals involved. My FoL are really not fast enough to proc before other hots and aoe heals, so throwing FoL really doesn't do anything, and it's usually just overheals 99% of the time.

I noticed a lot of the paladins in top PvE guilds are geared/specced for FoL pally stacking SP and haste. What are their roles? Is FoL better? Or am I just seeing a trend?

I know for sure FoL probably gets a lot more HPS, which I think benefits the raid more..

At the moment I can easily replace all my yellow sockets with something like.. Reckless Ametrine - Item - World of Warcraft

Than continue working towards more SP and Haste.

So gear is not really an issue, or is it? I don't know.. You guys tell me.

Should I remain HL or FoL? What is better? What are the positives and negatives of both.

[Insahnity]

Wowarmory is misbehaving, can't see your spec atm.

I'm not sure who you are looking at doing FoL. Most people are doing HL builds these days.

With every HL build, you must have Glyph of HL. That does raid healing, after a fashion. If you feel strongly, keep bombing those HLs on the tank or somebody really low in the raid, and splashing raid heals. You will never beat a holy priest, but you can certainly add just enough health so they survive the next hit before a raid healer can also cast something else as well.

Few people will advocate anything other than a pure int stack, with int/SP for red and int/mp5 for blue sockets, if you are chasing socket bonuses.

[Sezja]

Scrubbles and some other paladins from Premonition are FoL pally and.. I wonder why?

[Golijov]

In short: use what works for you and your guild.
FoL style really found it's niche in ToGC with 4pt9, and it can provide more than enough healing to keep up tanks in ToGC 25. I'd say it's biggest strength over HL is that it provides constant and steady HPS due to not having to use divine plea. To accomplish this you need quite a bit of mp5.

In my opinion the reason Premonition has had such success with it is because they run two FoL paladins. This means on double tank encounters they can sacred shield both and have two FoL HoTs rolling on each of them, on top of the steady FoL spam from each via Beacon. The drawback is it leaves little margin for error as far as raid healing and cooldown management goes. On a fight like Heroic Twin Valks a FoL-style paladin wouldn't be able to contribute nearly as much as a HL paladin as far as raid healing goes.

I think the HL style is probably what most raiding paladins side with (myself included). It has a lot more accessability, flexibility, and room for error. It's also viable to assist with raid healing on some encounters as this style (provided you have decent amount of haste). Haste stacking beyond the soft cap (676) is still very useful for this style, continuing to scale with HL but not GCDs. All-in-all I'd say the HL style is a much better choice if you find yourself doing 10 mans as well as 25.

On a side note: If you are looking for an exceptional HL paladin I'd suggest checking out Diamondtear of <Paragon> (Lightining's Blade-EU)

TLDR

FoL-
Pros:
Steady, reliable HPS
Strong tank healing
Little/No regen issues
Cons:
Less-viable raid healing
Potentially gear dependant to output needed HPS (4pt9)
Less flexibility in healing role


HL-
Pros:
Flexibility in healing role(Tank and assist raid)
Scales better with gear
Wider accessibility
Increased 10-man viability
Cons:
HPS not as steady as FoL (careful management of plea)
Potential regen issues(without proper cooldown management)
Potentially gear dependant for solid regen

[Sezja]

Ah, ok I think I'll stick with HL thanks for posting info Golijov.

[Golijov]

If you do decide to go the HL route you should re-evalute some of your gemming and gearing choices.

First and foremost spirit is a wasted stat for paladins, as we are rarely getting OOC regen and don't have a Meditation-like talent. Having said that I would suggest trying to get your cloak returned for the frost emblems for a non-spirit alternative. Also the Libram of Renewal(Ilvl 200) is by far the best choice for HL paladins. The Headguard of Inner Warmth (mail emblem of triumph-ilvl245) is itemized for HL moreso than the plate alternative. It would be worthwhile to farm ToC5 for the Tears of the Vanquished trinket as opposed to your Binding Stone.

If you want a excellent source of information on what kind of enchants you should be using (among many other things) check the elitistjerks.com holy paladin 3.3 thread.

[Sezja]

I actually just learned you can socket any gem into any socket..

I opened ticket for cloak to be exchanged, I doubt GM will do much though.. Oh well it happens..

I'll go ahead and farm for Tears of the Vanquished, I didn't know that dropped tyvm.

[Espillion]

*cracks knuckles*

Flash of Light aspect of play is gear intensive to the point it does require a hefty mana pool almost to the levels of HL but not quite. But it's also intricate to the point that once you reach a mana pool you can sustain, you can focus on the other stats depending on your improvement needed.

Basically a good even mix of MP5 regen, Crit and Haste Rating amplify what would be a higher-than-normal Spellpower compared to a lot of healing classes (running 2600ish spellpower on my Paladin compared to those around the 2000-2400 in the average raiding healer)

Flash of Light would probably been seen (in my eyes) as a "jack of all trades" type of play - coupled with Shock you can play the tank healer, and you can play the raid healer during your absolute downtime.

FoL provides a faster burst healer and in the short and medium runs can prove better healing than a Holy Lighter because they'll overheal pretty much what would be their full amount instead. But on Hard Hitting heroic bosses, you'll be balancing between all 3 spells.

[Golijov]

*cracks knuckles*

Flash of Light aspect of play is gear intensive to the point it does require a hefty mana pool almost to the levels of HL but not quite. But it's also intricate to the point that once you reach a mana pool you can sustain, you can focus on the other stats depending on your improvement needed.

Basically a good even mix of MP5 regen, Crit and Haste Rating amplify what would be a higher-than-normal Spellpower compared to a lot of healing classes (running 2600ish spellpower on my Paladin compared to those around the 2000-2400 in the average raiding healer)

Flash of Light would probably been seen (in my eyes) as a "jack of all trades" type of play - coupled with Shock you can play the tank healer, and you can play the raid healer during your absolute downtime.

FoL provides a faster burst healer and in the short and medium runs can prove better healing than a Holy Lighter because they'll overheal pretty much what would be their full amount instead. But on Hard Hitting heroic bosses, you'll be balancing between all 3 spells.

FoL paladins do not have 'hefty' mana pools. Instead they focus on a large amount of mp5, maintaining soft haste cap, and then maximizing SP. To accomplish this FoLers usually use quite a few Reckless Ametrines until close to 676 haste. After 4pt9 offpieces are usually dedicated to crit/mp5 itemization. Ideally a FoL paladin is running double Solaces for this reason, where as a HL would prefer a Meteorite Crystal + Solace.

I'd hardly say 2600ish is a higher than average amount of SP, with enchanting/gemming purely for intellect (weapon included) I was able to attain 2700 SP with a 38k mana pool unbuffed for HL. The predominant FoLers are running well over 3100 SP with 300+ mp5 (not counting Solace). 3k plus is more along the lines of what you see from most non-paladin raid healers as well.

Examples:
Scrubbles (as already stated)
Zaroua (main spec holy with Val'anyr)

FoL is most definitely not a 'jack of trades' healer. It's design is such that it makes for a solid and steady stream of pure single target healing. HL paladins are much better suited for raid healing as they usually are able to stack haste well beyond soft cap and top folks off in 'spiky' raid dmg situations. Couple this with the GoHL splash healing and you will find HL paladins outperforming FoL ones on raid dmg fights like heroic twins.

I am by no means saying FoL is worse, I am just simply trying to clarify the real strength and niche that FoL tries to fill. I am not trying to pigeonhole FoL as only single-target, merely that GoHL and higher haste make HL much better suited in most scenarios.

For a good example of the FoL playstyle in action take a look at this video and view the warriors incoming heals (left-side scrolling text):

[Espillion]

This is because they are putting emphasis on the quality of their Flashes with reliance of their own skills to regulate their mana pool. They have quite the awareness factor involved. When it comes to a big hit though, they will either need to go into overdrive or go pop a Holy Light which may very well drop their pool by a sizable 15-20%.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind going down that path if I had that very same foresight but unfortunately the mana pool puts me off.

2600 is compared to "other" healers, not just paladins. And the average one at that. HL is expected to have around the same level of spell power due to the Intellect-SP conversion talent.

It's merely preference on how you want to play.

I see it as a Jack of all trades merely because you can tune it that way and have a play style that fits it. You can fit the role of tanks with enough spellpower and stats. You can fit the raid healer role with enough mana-pool. Or do both with a mix of the two. Granted we don't make good raid healers, we have the capability.

This is just my take because I seem to do all roles during my raiding. Mostly Tank-healing but then a few raid heals here and there just to relieve the boredom and lack of mana usage.

[Golijov]

This is because they are putting emphasis on the quality of their Flashes with reliance of their own skills to regulate their mana pool. They have quite the awareness factor involved. When it comes to a big hit though, they will either need to go into overdrive or go pop a Holy Light which may very well drop their pool by a sizable 15-20%.

I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say here, however, I think you might not quite understand how the FoL-style really works. These paladins have enormous amounts of regen through mp5, 645 while casting for Zarou from gear alone (if you factor in double solaces). Using primarily FoL these paladins NEVER have to plea. This seems much more a reliance on gear and not management of class abilities. Intellect only has a regen value close to that of mp5 if you are (among other factors) using Plea on CD, which as FoL would defeat one of the style's biggest strengths.

Also the FoL HoT from Sacred Shield double dips into +%healing modifiers (Imp Dev. Aura/Tree of Life, GoSoL, etc.) meaning a 110% strength FoL would have a HoT at 121%. Couple this with 4pt9 and having two of these paladins and you easily have the same effective HPS as provided by HL paladins (although not hindered by using plea). This is not even counting the fact that FL paladin's have stronger sacred shields to begin with.

These paladins really do not have to use HL at all, as they are keeping up tanks in what is arguably the heaviest tank dmg encounters in WotLK so far (and pre-nerf I might add) with FoL. In the rare case they might have to bomb a few HL, their regen is such that it wouldnt take that big of hit. A HL for Zaroua costs only 5% of of his unbuffed mana pool. Factor in raid buffs, replenishment, a potion and maybe even use of divine illumination and it's easily offset. Alternatively we always have DivSac or AW in our arsenal to offset any sizeable incoming damage moments. Also I fail to see how his smaller mana pool is that big of a factor. These were type of mana pools we were looking at as HL in Naxx days.

2600 is compared to "other" healers, not just paladins. And the average one at that. HL is expected to have around the same level of spell power due to the Intellect-SP conversion talent.

Other healing classes using mainly ilvl 232/245 are able to attain 2800+ spellpower unbuffed easily, as they are gemming/gearing/enchanting for throughput in more cases than HL paladins. HL paladins are often the lowest on the sp 'totem pole' so to speak at equivalent gear levels to other healers. This is largely due in part because SP is a very poor stat for HL and is usually only increased passively when upgrading to higher ilvl. This is also because only 20% of our int is converted to SP. That's about 4.84 SP (with BoKings and Divine Intellect) per 20 int gem so int scaling with SP isn't all that great. A paladin with about 2200 intellect and 2800 SP unbuffed only recieves about 439 of his SP from intellect (about 15.5%).

Even geared FoL paladins might have trouble matching up SP-wise to equivalently geared healers of different classes. They have to prioritize getting haste soft-capped and a great amount of regen before goign for SP. Healers like shaman and druid can really focus on optimizing their throughput through gemming a lot easier than a paladin can.

I see it as a Jack of all trades merely because you can tune it that way and have a play style that fits it. You can fit the role of tanks with enough spellpower and stats. You can fit the raid healer role with enough mana-pool. Or do both with a mix of the two. Granted we don't make good raid healers, we have the capability.

I still don't agree that a FoL paladin would have better flexibility in healing role than a HL paladin. The GoHL would beat out the FoL paladin just about everytime. HL provides a lot more flexibility in who and what you can heal, having an incredible almost 'built-in' raw HPS (especially counting Glyph and Beacon). Also the SS HoT is one of the FoL playstyle's biggest tools and one is almost eliminating that in a raid healing situation. In fact, trying to maintain the FoL HoT uptime would be a big hinderance in many raid healing situations.

If prioritizing a mixing of stats and spells in your arsenal works for the content you and your guild are doing as well as what you are trying to accomplish as a healer, then by all means do so. However you will be hard-pressed to find any successful raiding holy paladins that are not clearly trying to maximize either the HL or FoL playstyles. I also urge to consider that even though one may optimize a particular spell, it does not mean that the others are effectively being eliminated from incorporation.

As a side-note: Haste, not Spellpower, is much better and more effective stat as HL to increase HPS for either tank or raid-healing purposes. This goes for FoL as well but looses almost all value after attaining the soft-cap.

[Espillion]

1st point, they're offsetting the drop in their mana pool with the fact that they can passively regen mana at a bigger rate then what most paladins see in their entire raiding lifetime. But they are effectively niche-healing when possible without effectively wasting whatever mana they have because of the downtime, if any, if they resort to what I play like (which is many heals, not just Flashes, Shocking as well for procs). They're based on quality on Flashes and their SS Ticks - which is why they're specced in the Prot. I'm based Quantity with Quality.

I can handle some of the new content and a few of the Heroic Trial of the Grand Crusader encounters with my style. And this is what it is - talking of playstyle based on HL and FoL. Although it is going more of the way of FoL, I can still respect the HL play.

---

2nd point, that's if you're looking at the fully-geared raider that's been raiding for a fair lengthy amount of time and knows their stuff. 2800's cake-walk for other classes because they can afford to gem/enchant for throughput. Paladins, either FoL or HL, don't exactly get said luxury. They need to focus on the long run be it speed, mana pool, or a slight crit increase, depending on needs. Haste-capping seems a little over-bearing for FoL as it's already near that 1 second GCD when you get to the high-end but then again, it's still personal preference on what throughput you want.

Holy Light-aspect of play, yes they need the intellect and haste to accomplish what they are set out for in raiding. Close that gap for that 1 second cast. And be able to last the fight as well.

---

3rd point. Raid-healing HL-aspect Paladins. Never seen such a task been asked of at all. And doubt many others have. Sure you can put one or two of them if people need it but in practicality, majority of the time you're focusing on the tank(s) and no-one else.

In terms of raw numbers, yes HL wins hands-down. But in essence, that's because it's focused on the tanks with splash healing here and there. In terms of utility, FoL coupled with Shocks would be seen as more favourable for a quick burst heal instead (in terms of the average Paladin side-by-side with another one, not a top-of-the-line comparison).

And I agree, it's only an aspect of play. Just because you are customized for one spell, you don't ignore the other spells. They have their moments.

[Golijov]

They are by no means 'offsetting' their mana consumption here, they merely have enough regen where they will not oom within the enrage of this particular fight. Their mana pool still goes down and is low toward the tail end. You are severely overestimating the gear they had for this kill, this was a world third. I'm fairly certainly at most they each only had one solace each, far less 258s, and a lot less regen/sp than you see them rocking today.

There was a log available for their Insanity kill, which happened very recent after this and they are both very avid users of holy shock. I am pretty sure the logs were something like each paladin well over 6k eHPS. This is definitely comparable to a well assigned typical 25m HL paladin's eHPS. These paladins aren't pigeonholing themselves into pure Flash spamming, they use shock just as much as the next person. Once again I think you are making too many assumptions about their playstyles and how the FoL spec really works. They are really optimizing their use of the FoL HoT viat Sacred Shield; they likely specced into prot for the primary purpose of the 3.2 DivSac cooldowns and then for increasing the value of their SS.

There is math behind haste being the greatest increase in HPS until soft-capped for FoL (and beyond that for HL). I remain unconvinced until proven otherwise, as SP and crit and extremely poor and unreliable throughput stats, often resulting in increased overhealing. This has been a much discussed and well-known fact in the holy paladin community.

Holy Light make very comparable raid healers on many encounters since 3.2 and the BoL changes. Even during 3.1 a paladin on fights like Firefighter 25 were able to be competitive as the type of raid damage is well suited for the HL style. Post 3.2 on fight's like Algalon, Council hard, and Hodir hard(among others), HL paladins are able to put up competitive enough HPS to rival and exceed any other healing class. This is largely due to the nature of raid damage on most encounters similar to this. If only one tank is tanking significant damage at a time, then it's quite easy for a paladin to assist with raid healing.

While FoL might have a quicker base cast time, it heals for a lot less and doesn't scale with SP nearly as well. FoL does not have near the potential HL does in terms of HPS. There is no beating HL as raid heal in terms of potential HPS and the fact that it has a decent glyph. With appropriate and easily attainable levels of haste the difference in cast time in almost neglible for the type or raid damage we are seeing.

Regardless of gear level, the mechanics of paladin healing and each playstyle yield that HL is by far the most flexible of the two styles. Futhermore, paladins trying to use FoL on Frozen Blows or after a Black Hole explosion or Touch of Light on H Twin Valks simply will not compare to the ones using HL. The list goes on and on for the type or raid damage I'm talking about, and there are plently of logs on worldoflogs.com to support the fact that HL paladins have superior flexibility when it comes to raid healing.

I'd really like to see some logs or actual numbers to back up the claim that an equally geared FoL and HL could achieveme similiar performances in raid healing roles.

As far as 'your' style and ToGC I can't really say you are speaking from experience whatsoever, judging by what I can see from your armory data. Anecdoctal evidence cannot be considered valid when it's not coming from experience. You are misunderstanding what I'm trying to get across here. I am merely trying (to the best of my ability) explain how the most successful and majority of raiding FoL and HL paladins accomplish what they do. If what you have works for you that is great, but I don't think there is a necessity to compare unless you have something constructive to add that is widely accepted/supported and not just personal belief. I will conceed if a person is asking to choose between FoL and HL playstyles they should take every source into account. However, the value of seeing and understading what some of the most successful paladins in world (Premonition and Paragon for example) have done hold a bit more weight in the decision making process and overall comparison of the two playstles.

[Espillion]

Alright, so a personal opinion doesn't weigh as much as a world-credited guild. But the fact of the matter is that the numbers only make up one half of the story. Unless you have good insight to divulge from those numbers the other half, you won't hear the situation about what they do with a lot of their management in playing their character, gear or otherwise.

They would be offsetting if you say it's 600ish Mp5 as there would be few classes that reach that number easily. Shamans and Druids could in a sense but otherwise most would gimp it in favor of Spellpower throughput as that and a bigger Mana base would be more viable than Mp5.

Obviously I did not assume Flash-spam. No point I did say such a thing. Niche-healing is what I said. Yes they dipped with Sacred Shield ticks and Shield Absorb increments and I commend them of that. I merely showed a comparison between a Quality Healer vs. a Quality with Quantity Healer.

Haste may add speed but the fact is that Haste and our Judgements makes a fairly low impact on a Flash of Light cast time. If anything, the best average with said augments would be 1.1-1.15ish cast time? That's a fairly low discrepency but the thing is that haste only provides very little with an already low cast time already. It's a niche stat, in my honest opinion - if one needs it, go ahead but otherwise you will obtain it naturally in gear.

Holy Light raid healing has that one weakness - people need to be clumped together. Yes, those fights have that specific need to clump together at some point but otherwise it's just a water bomb heal with splashback for anyone nearby. Better to bombard someone big and get a slight splash on others than a dedication to the group.

Again, you're putting me on the backfoot of assuming that FoL is better than HL. I said that both have their place. There's different paths for gearing, gemming, enchanting and play style for both aspects. Whatever one takes there are more to look out for to suit each person.

Flexibility? Maybe. As I said, Holy Light and Flash of Light have their own playstyle and depending on the person behind the character, one can find it fine with just Flashes and Shocks and another could do great with Holy Light. It's based on people's ability and style, sans gear.

Anecdotal is experience on a personal level. Whilst I may not be on the top of the world, sharing some personal experience is better than just relying on the guides dummied down for simplicity. Being at the top of the game doesn't necessarily mean they need to share the reasons why they have their playstyles. They had to figure it mostly on their own or with great assistance from peers. We all had to start at that level.

I'm going to leave it at this point simply because it's gone off on a tangent and the OP probably is going to see this as a big &quot;ego vs. ego&quot; fight.

But this is just my take on the matter. Nothing too serious, right? =P

[Golijov]

Personal opinions can be a very valid and insightful aid in decision making. However, when they contradict what has been well-established in the holy paladin community, I myself tend to question their validity.

You misunderstand my intent as I am merely showing what each playstyle choice can do at the highest levels and how this is accomplished. To clarify: My point was these paladins had nowhere near these obsecene levels of regen/throughput they do today when they downed H Anub World 3rd. In short while the playstyle can be very gear dependant, it can be accomplished with a lot less gear than found on these particular paladins.

As a small side note: In current content I cannot think of a fight where atleast melee, if not most of the raid members, would not be grouped up within 8 yards in order to recieve GoHL benefits (especially during peak raid damage periods of course). Don't forget range can limit AoE healer capalability as well (Prayer of Healing, Wild Growth, Holy Nova), so I am unable to recall any encounter where GoHL would recieve severly limited benefit for HL.

As for matters of haste and the HL strengths, you are again lacking hard evidence to support yourself and instead offer personal opinions and thoughts to directly contradict what is already well-established in the holy paladin community. While you may disagree with some, most, or even all what I have stated I urge you to strongly reconsider. I have invested a lot of personal time and effort into researching and maximizing my character, and feel as though I speak from a respectable amount of experience.

As for my take on this whole matter I am only attempting to clarify common misconceptions among raiding holy paladins between the choices involved in these two very unique playstyles.

[Sezja]

In most fights tanks will take huge hits, how does a FoL pally deal with that? I mean sure they can cast HL, but with a FoL pally mana pool wouldn't they go oom pretty quickly in those situations?

[Espillion]

Mmmm I seem to play the exception to both the typical Holy Light and Flash of Light gear build. I have enough Mana to play the Holy Light aspect yet I tend to stick with Flash and Shocks. The play style I've built beforehand makes the other concept weird. Kinda like driving in your friend's car when you're more comfortable with your own. Which is the problem you first asked at the start.

With a typical FoL pool, as shown by Golijov, yes the mana would drop a huge considerable chunk. But then against every part of the Holy Paladin can dictate how you can play. Gear, Talents, skill patterns.

Individual play for individual needs to contribute for a greater good.

[Sezja]

I actually just spoke with Scrubbles.

From what he tells me he almost never has to use HL, and even when he does it is for a couple seconds when tank is taking major spike damage when boss gains a buff or debuffs.

He will basically just spam FoL, he has yet to have mana issues even when using HL.

Him and Zar seem to be doing a great job at keeping tanks alive as FoL, maybe it is because I've been HL spamming for such a long time I've gotten bored or maybe FoL might actually be better. Whatever the case I'm gonna go ahead and give FoL a shot.

[Espillion]

Well yeh, that's their way of play - quality. Obviously if you feel like having such a pool won't be comfortable with you, you can increase it via Intellect and try for quantity.

It's not that it's "better" on paper but they feel more comfortable with their style. That's how it is with healing and other roles. There's a style for everything.

[Norako]

I'm going to have to side with Golijov on this issue. He not only explained his case well but he also provided proof and he obviously has some experience. FoL works for many fights, but there are times when a HL spec would do a much better job at keeping everyone alive (Mainly hard modes).

I am FoL speced. I always have been, and I'm very good at it. I am the top healer in my guild and am nearly always at the top of the charts in 25 mans. But I know my limits too. I have never completed a hard mode, so I haven't been tested in that area yet, but there have been times when I barely managed to keep the tanks alive on regular (the raid healers admitted they threw a few heals on my assignment). This tells me I can do better. The way I usually handle the huge spikes of damage is:

1. Knowing the fights, and knowing when the big damage is coming.

2. Start spamming FoL like mad (sometimes even get a HL going before the damage hits, but rarely)

3. If the damage takes me offguard, then hit the tank with Holy Shock which crits for 10k then FoL which crits for 8k.

The problems arise when they don't crit.... Thats where the haste comes in handy. Having FoL down to a second (with the Judgment up) helps more than some might think, and when it comes to mana, I have around 26-27k raid buffed and never go OOM due to high Mp5. I am always asked to 25 mans and have been complimented on my healing ability on many occasions. But I know I can always do better and constantly try to improve myself to keep my edge. I have yet to find a HL user on my server... Of course I'm ally and the ratio is like 8:1 horde to ally so... =/ But I'm been doing a lot of studying and I have been considering going HL spec. It seems like it would be more adaptable to every situation... I'm not saying FoL doesn't work, because I know it does; I'm just saying it seems like HL would improve the areas my guild is week in... and I don't like being carried ;P