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Thread: Rising G.S. Min? + Min G.S. to start raiding.

  1. #21
    Simple logic...
    The longer the content is out, the more time people have to get their gear. People who were 5k 1 week after it was possible were, generally, the best players. Two weeks yielded second tier players. Two months yielded the not so talented. Half a year means even the mentally incompetent casuals are 5k+. Because of this, requirements have to raise to make it so the raid isn't handicapped by mental handicaps.

  2. #22
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    it is true what you say, most raid's i'm in there 5.5k gs or higher, so you get the best players to raid as far as they can in one night.
    but, the hard part is getting the right players who know the fight's on 10 first.
    only a few can keep up with me, just hope you'r one of them

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamani View Post
    Simple logic...
    The longer the content is out, the more time people have to get their gear. People who were 5k 1 week after it was possible were, generally, the best players. Two weeks yielded second tier players. Two months yielded the not so talented. Half a year means even the mentally incompetent casuals are 5k+. Because of this, requirements have to raise to make it so the raid isn't handicapped by mental handicaps.
    Um, what you're talking about there is time in-game, not skill at all.

  4. #24
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    First Advice: Join a guild.
    Second Advice: Learn to Lie. My mage carried around a Twins Pack Instead of Engraved Gargoyle Femur in dalaran. Its dishonest, but you get into PuG's.
    Third Advice: I really enjoy having my raids lead by someone else (for progression at least), but when push comes to shove weeklies, toc10, toc25, icc10, voa10/25. If you have a brain you should be capable of leading those pugs.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  5. #25
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    Rising G.S. Min? + Min G.S. to start raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamani View Post
    Simple logic...
    The longer the content is out, the more time people have to get their gear. People who were 5k 1 week after it was possible were, generally, the best players. Two weeks yielded second tier players. Two months yielded the not so talented. Half a year means even the mentally incompetent casuals are 5k+. Because of this, requirements have to raise to make it so the raid isn't handicapped by mental handicaps.
    I have to respond to this. This is bad logic. Real bad, not simple logic. Go back to wow forums if you want to insult people. Not everyone who plays this game is able to raid frequently enough to get gear quickly. Just because someone can play this game 24/7, full of fail, and can get carried through raids to get gear doesn't make a person a better player than someone who's casual, who has a life, who'll outplay that person at a moments notice.

    Go troll somewhere else.
    Need more rage. I can't do that yet. That spell's not ready. Not enough rage.
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  6. #26
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    Sadly there's not much anyone can do about this really. A few of the people that notice this and know how to do the raids and are willing to lead a few 'undergeared' people should step up. This is Tankspot after all. If you're here, you should be able to learn how to at least do the fights.

  7. #27
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    This isnt new and never has been, the requirements have always gone up even if it might have happened quicker lately due to the emblems changes. Contrary to what many people (including the ones doing the actual asking) believe it has nothing to do with the actual gear score but the willingness/ability to get it.
    Of course ToC10 doesnt require a gear score of 5.2 to handle but asking for it gives you a higher chance of getting ppl who actually care about their gear. As someone also already said, it's so easy to get good gear these days that a low gear score only tells you that person either doesnt care or doesnt know how and either is equally bad.

    Should mention that I am not a friend of the addon but I see why some ppl would like it. The funny thing is that the people who are using it actively are most often the bad ones... One of the most over geared and easiest ToC raids I have been in during the last few months was gathered by someone saying "LFM ToC, gear can't suck". After we had started someone with the addon noted that we had ONE person below 5.8.

    This whole thing isnt going to change, just the way people ask for it might. Earlier it was purple gear, then it was achievements, now its gear score and tomorrow its going to be something else. This whole discussion reminds me of people saying "it was better in the good old days" :-D

  8. #28
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    It's just something thats hit it off in game and I don' really see any way around it for now. I have the GS mod simply to get into some of the larger pugs as we're a small guild of friends that only do 10 mans. However I NEVER ask for GS when making a raid myself, as I'm fully aware that good gear does not equal a good raider, especially in an age of badge farming.

    If I invite someone and they're not good enough or don't improve with guidance then I'll replace them, soley based on their inability to perform the task and not because of what they're wearing. GS is great for RLs who aren't comfortable with confrontation.

  9. #29
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    Here's my shot at some "simple logic":

    1) The success of any group is directly proportional to the combined skills and potential of the players in the group.
    2) While I'll take skill over gear any day, every piece of content has a minimum gear requirement. To further illustrate this point, try raiding naked. Overgearing content has the benefit of making it take less time, which is generally accepted as a good thing.
    3) If you don't know enough skilled players to fill out a full group, then you need to search for other skilled players from a pool of unknown players.
    4) There is no way to 100% accurately quantify an unknown player's skill without taking a leap of faith and inviting them to see them in action. Even then, you may catch a skilled player having an off night, or a bad player being "in the zone" rather than "in the void zone". The only way to have a true picture of a player's skill is to watch them play over an extended period of time.
    5) Because you can't be perfectly acurate at measuring a player's skill, the best way to approximate their skill is to "interview" them. Unfortuntaly, interviewing takes time and aptitude. Works well for guild invites, but not so well for a VoA pug.
    6) In order to reduce the chance of taking a leap of faith on a baddie, many people look for objective criteria upon which to make comparisons and decide who is the safest bet. Gear is the most common of such criteria. This is not new. GearScore is just the latest version. Before that existed it was "link stats", or being armory'd/inspected. People have been judging other people since the dawn of mankind.
    7) Because GearScore is easy to install and use, it's usage (and misusage) as a form of objective criteria has become widespread.
    8) Despite only offering a single peice of information about a player (basically, the sum of their ilvls) that information represents the potential a character can achieve if played skillfully, with a reasonable degree of accuracy (which can be verified through further digging via armory/inspect). It also represents time invested by the player into the character, which does not guarantee the player became skilled in the process, but makes it more likely. While I know they exist, I've never known a person who bought an ebay character or paid for powerleveling.
    9) The combined GearScore of the WoW playing community is constantly increasing over time. Every day you do not increase your GearScore makes you fall behind on the curve.
    10) As I said before, there is a minimum gear requirement for any given peice of content, but this is not the reason why people want your GearScore. People want your GearScore to compare you to the rest of the curve. To simplify: if the content demands a 30k health tank, and the choice for invites is between a 40k health tank and a 45k health tank (all other variables being equal), the invite goes to the tank with 45k health.
    11) My conclusion: the best way to get invites, aside from having full 277s and all the achievements, is to become known as a good player. A reputation and good friends goes a long way in WoW.
    Last edited by NewfieDave; 07-26-2010 at 12:29 AM.

  10. #30
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    I'm also going to take issue with some of the 'simple logic' here. Dave's got mostly good points. the other guy....no.

    I'm sorry, but length of time does NOT matter in getting gear. For example: I spent a short time in a guild that was very progress-oriented. They took me along on one of their ToC runs when ToC was still rather valued as a raid. (it was shortly after ICC came out.) Not having met many of these people on vent, and not having raided before, I was surprised to find out that almost everyone who raided, and probably everyone who was in the guild, happened to be in the armed services in some branch or another. Naturally due to this, we had some people who were a bit under the bar in terms of gear.

    .....I still feel like you could have taken a pug of 5.5k people and they wouldn't have done as well as those guys did. Strategically, situationally, and just in general they were on the ball. It was the first time I experienced what they call military precision. We damn near one-shotted everything save for a healer dying out first try on Anub.

    My point is that these guys get deployed...sometimes for months. For months, WoW is the LAST thing on their mind, and keeping themselves and others alive in the world's biggest sandbox or some other little slice of hell for them is priority number one. Yet they come back to us, with skills and abilities just as sharp as before. Just because they haven't gotten gear in months doesn't mean squat about them.

    By comparison....

    A few months ago I was helping an ex-guildie with her Death Knight. I've had a DK tank for a long time and I'd been raiding with him since wrath began so I know my stuff for the most part. She was looking to tank, and for a brief time we had her tank a lesser raid since we knew she could use the gear. But she wasn't doing so hot and complained there were long stretches of time where she wasn't able to do anything because her runes were on cooldown. Noting this, I looked at her plates and noticed she had consistently full Runic Power.

    After the raid, I jumped onto my Death Knight and tried teaching her the basics. The Yin and Yang that is Runes and RP, proper threat-building, etc.

    ....She did not know, and did not wish to know, the names of her attacks. She did not know, and did not wish to know the names of her talents. Claiming to me that 'if I get in that far, I'm obsessed'. Shaking my head I let her copy my specc and make some adjustments since she liked to Dual Wield.

    Now she's not on all the time. She's a mom, has other stuff to do. Understandable. But you see the difference there? Two different types of people, both of whom may spend a long time outside of the game. They both suffer in the same way for loosing gear, but their attitudes towards the game make the difference. NOT the gear.

    --------------------

    As far as Dave's logic goes, actually, I think I'd rather go back to linking stats and inspecting gear. Linking stats requires your raid leader, or at least your raid, to have a general knowledge of what he or she is looking for. I'd imagine anyone who's been around here for awhile could easily live, recruit, and lead, without THAT addon. Simply because they know what they're doing, know what they're looking for in terms of stats and gear, and if they DON'T know, they're willing to put the time and effort in to find out before they ever start recruiting.

  11. #31
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    Find some friends and bribe your way into raids. When somebody saids lfm icc10 min gs 5200 and you respond with how about a 4800 plus a 6200gs tank and healer they generally give in. My buddy is trying to gear up his pally as prot/holy and we have been doing this or starting are own raids. We did our own icc10 this week and had him healing in 200 gear a few 232s and no trinkets. Healing was a non issue and he actually did a better job then one of the guys in full icc gear.

    Yes the required gs for pugs in trade is insane and far to high. But you can also simply do guild runs or create your own pugs. Dont focus on GS to much instead just focus on being a good player and the gear will eventually come.

  12. #32
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    I think Kamani's message got across wrong. I read it as an observation that after all these months even the terribad players could get enough badges to go around bragging about their 5.9K GS set and that same terribad group made their gear the entry level for every new player or toon because, well, they're at the bottom, cant get any worse than them, they know it and they still have 5.9K gs?

    Now on to more constructive notes:

    What people ask for their raids and what they'll settle for are two different things. In the case of a tank, the GS means slightly more as it's more or less a decent indication of the survival the toon has stacked. But with the 30% buff around, even that's not really a big issue. So, dont mind the "whisper 5.5K gs & achi or no inv" and ask for invites all the same. Explain that your gear is up to the task even if the gs isnt met and you know your stuff better than the GS scrub they'll probably get. They might skip you at first but you'll start getting in eventually. Oh and prefer the "come to Eventide for inspect" raids. Means the leader is intelligent enough to talk to.

    What you should aim for? without raiding and minimal effort and some cash investment, you should be able to get yourself into 4800 gs really easily. I mean like in 2-3 days. Invest more than 2 weeks and that should be around 5K gs. All without raiding.

    As another reference, i did an icc run when the buff was at 25%. I went in with my 5.0K gs pally tank, the other tank was a 5.2K. Rest of the group wasnt much different, gs spread was 4600-5300 with a druid healer with 5.9K. We cleared all the way to Sindragosa (we didnt try her, we probably would've got her too except most people had never seen that fight). So, that should give you a ballpark figure.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fledern View Post
    Oh and prefer the "come to Eventide for inspect" raids. Means the leader is intelligent enough to talk to.
    Massively agreed on this. I'll always prefer a Raid Leader who's willing to take the time to talk to and inspect his Raiders over someone who stares at a number and then screams at me for not being as high as they'd like. Raid Leaders should always know their stuff, even if it's something as simple as Weekly or VoA.
    "I don't have a dream, so I protect the dreams of others."~Inui Takumi

  14. #34
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    Last night in trade someone was spamming for Sunwell, 80s only 5.5k min GS - I swear on all that is Holy; 5.5k min for Sunwell; it was not a joke.

    The whole GS thing has just gotten stupid; I really wish Blizz would find a way to just block the addon.

  15. #35
    People even complain about "low Gearscore" in battlegrounds now. It's just ridiculous. =/

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    People even complain about "low Gearscore" in battlegrounds now. It's just ridiculous. =/
    As I mentioned above I was helping gear up my friends pally and when running randoms we found it extremely common that people are trying to kick somebody who doesnt have full epcs. And its pretty much 100% if we see somebody in boa gear then some twat will try to kick them (and leave if the vote fails) luckily when you consist of 3/5 party memebers those votes do fail. The majority of the time the lower geared player actually does alot better to.

    Those with higher gear start slacking off because they have gear and those with lower gear know that their gear is worse and the raid leader is looking for a reason to kick them so they so they strive to do better. Obviously this doesnt always happen but it is fairly commen in the raids that im on, mostly because the leader inspects them instead of asking for gs.

  17. #37
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    Honestly, I find Gearscore to be less of a problem than other numbers in general being falsely inflated. The proverbial DPS that does 10k DPS, but does it only on one fight which favors their class and spec the most with a 30% buff in ICC. You invite that person and they pull off 4,000 DPS most of the time. I get an application from someone saying they do 10k dps, the first thing I ask is "to what?" A number without a point of reference is a meaningless number. 10,000 is just a number, is that 10,000 miles, or 10,000 inches?

    Gearscore is a misused number, but I would still find it slightly more informative than someone who is flat out lying. However, this is just one number. You need more information to make an educated guess.

    The best you can do before actually grouping with a person is to inspect their history. Look at achievements. Look at actual gear level. Look at key indicators such as health and mana pool. A successful raid leader has to get as much information as possible about an individual, one number is never enough to make an educated guess. And when it comes down to actually inviting them, thats what it really is, a guess. Until you actually group with the person you have no idea if what you believe they can do or what they told you they can do is correct or not.

    I have an alt that I pug a lot on. I find it rather amusing how when I reply to a raid leader, I actually ask them more questions than they ask me. There is a large deficiency in general out there today. The vast majority of people leading pug raids, should not be leading. No offense to their efforts, but I think they simply lack the leadership qualities and skills. It's because of that, they worry about a single number that can be taken out of context.

    A good leader will look at your gearscore (some way or another they will look at your gearing and evaluate, are you appropriately geared, they may not have an addon give them a number but they still look and basically figure it out for themselves). However, they will also look at a lot of other information as well. They won't judge you by one factor alone. They may look at your gearscore, but then they will look at more specific information. Such as your gemming and enchanting. If they see a caster DPS using spell penetration gems for instance, most raid leaders would frown on that because gemming that way is worthless in PvE context. This reflects the player doesn't understand their class and spec, or in the least is catering to a different aspect of play such as PvP. Gearscore isn't entirely bad. It's the people that use it. 99.99% of the people out there, aren't good leaders.

    Good leaders...

    EstimatedValue(Gearscore, DPS, Health, Armor, HPS, Mana, Spec, Gemming, ItemSelection, ...) Returns EstimatedValueOfRaider

    Bad leaders...

    EstimatedValue(Gearscore) Returns EstimatedValueOfRaider


    The leader then takes this Estimated Value for you and decides whether or not to invite you. The number isn't broken. The function of how people use it is.
    Last edited by Quinafoi; 07-26-2010 at 09:05 AM.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  18. #38
    Yeah, it's pretty annoying. What's worse is that people behave as though having a higher gearscore than someone else confers additional knowledge or right or something. I have discussions like this every day when I'm on my alts:

    Me: "Guys we only have one base, we've gotta stop running the flag and get another base soon."
    JoeRandom: "Ok Mr. 4500 GS, what do you know."

    (On Devourer of Souls)
    JoeRandom: "OMFG TANK THESE GHOSTS"
    Me: "They're untargetable, just have to deal with them."
    JoeRandom: "Whatever, L2Tank 4500 GS nub"

    Me: /roll on tanking sword
    JoeRandom: /roll on tanking sword
    Me: "Um, really?"
    JoeRandom: "Not like you deserve it after we carried you 4500 GS noob"

    It's basically become a justification for being a jerk, really.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    It's basically become a justification for being a jerk, really.
    For jerks, anything can be made into a justification.

  20. #40
    Isn't that the truth. =D

    I guess I just run into the issue a lot because I play a lot of alts. =/

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