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Thread: Cataclysm - The End of EHP?

  1. #81
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    for DKs in cata at least, there is a small chance i might use my corpsetongue coin (dont think my dk has it yet haha) over a hp trinket as they can heal themselves up to 20% hp i think when both Will of the Necropolis and Corpsetongue proc. but that is in Cata.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyeofskadi View Post
    for DKs in cata at least, there is a small chance i might use my corpsetongue coin (dont think my dk has it yet haha) over a hp trinket as they can heal themselves up to 20% hp i think when both Will of the Necropolis and Corpsetongue proc. but that is in Cata.
    Wait, what did you figure the Corpsetongue Coin was doing in that scenario? Last I checked it was an armor proc which has no bearing on the healing you do/receive.
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  3. #83
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    Before i start i do want to mention i 100% believe that EH is the best option for most of the encounters for WOTLK. I do see this changing in the expansion but not forgotten. Best way to describe it i feel that EH will have a soft cap. There will be a point that stacking more EH will not be as effective as picking up more avoidance. This is my rundown on why

    Healer mana will become an issue, stacking EH will help you survive, but at the cost of the healers risking OOM to quickly. Going pure avoidance means healers can play more reactive to a degree but you risk the change of getting a bad chain. Keeping a decent EH pool will always be useful, but in cata avoidance will come around for the mere fact Healers mana is a variable in the equation again. Being able to avoid full attacks mean Bubbles last longer, and HOTS because useful again. If healers aren't spamming the tank to full constantly that means hots will be a good form of healing when you get a good chain, and when you get a bad chain that is when spamming will occur. But again tanks will always need a decent EH pool for when those bad chains occur for survivability. Throughout this expansion tanks have been thought EH rules and to think otherwise is crazy, which i agree or 95% of the encounters. But with cata it will teach us that EH still has its place, but we cannot forget about avoidance and that its coefficients will be worth more. This doesn't mean that they will be higher then EH off the bat, but at a certain point EH will plateau and avoidance will be the better stat after that.

    Not saying you have to agree but this is kinda where i feel it will be going towards.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Wait, what did you figure the Corpsetongue Coin was doing in that scenario? Last I checked it was an armor proc which has no bearing on the healing you do/receive.
    yea you are right. But, that's the point, you get 'full benefit' of the armour and since you can heal 20% of your hp when it procs which makes up for the sta loss from a sta trinket.

    Wotlk: Will of Necropolis reduces dmg by 15% when hp is lowered to 35%. So having more sta, it procs earlier and you can soak much more dmg (35% of the hp <ICC buff gives a 1.3 multiplier> from sta trink * 1.15 multiplier from talent * 2.0 multiplier from IBF) before dying.
    if you opted for corpsetongue, you gain a little (5%? before DR) dodge and armour proc but lose the bigger hp pool as well as the soak.

    Most impt thing to note is that you are at 35% hp when they proc, so more hp = safer.

    Cata (so far): If we chose Sta trink over Corpsetongue, we have the same benefits as before. But since you can heal yourself by 20% of hp with Rune Tap, you are now at 55% hp.

    So at 55% hp, even if you could have say 2 or 3k more hp with a Sta trinket (H Sindragosa Flawless fang - 258 Sta), since you are definitely NOT in danger of dying, I would say the 5% dodge and armour proc from Corpsetongue far outstrips the static hp. This is of course assuming you can react fast enough to heal yourself which shouldnt be too hard.

    If they were to remake similar trinkets for Lv85, who knows #_#. But seeing as they want to 'streamline' armour and we all (clothies up to platies) have ridiculous Sta on our gear, i bet armour = a lovely stat (for passive dmg red anyway).

  5. #85
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    A one in 20 chance of dodging (5%, is that pre-diminishing returns?) doesn't seem very valuable to me if you're comparing it to 258 stamina * 1.1 (Kings) * 1.09 (warrior) * 10 * 1.3 (ICC buff) * (1/1-Damage reduction))

    Assume 70% damage reduction, and that I've done my math right.

    That's 4021 HP * 1/.3 = 13403 EH. Personally, I wouldn't trade a 1 in 20 chance of dodging for 13403 EH. And the armor proc is smart, which is good, but I'd prefer to give myself a bigger buffer and rely on active CDs to prevent getting to 35%

    I realize the math is different for DKs, for starters, armor is a fair bit less with more passive damage reduction to compensate, but is it that much different?
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyeofskadi View Post
    <ICC buff gives a 1.3 multiplier>
    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    1.3 (ICC buff)
    Why include ICC buff in a discussion about Cataclysm tanking?
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    Why include ICC buff in a discussion about Cataclysm tanking?
    Good point. Since I'm not in beta, I've got ICC blinders?

    3093 * 1/.3 = 10310 EH versus 1/20 chance of avoiding damage.
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  8. #88
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    I think the difference is context.

    If that EH gives (for example) 10% more time to live in a worst case situation, that sounds awesome. In ICC, that's about two hits - so we'll be generous and say you live from 4 seconds to 4.4 seconds.

    In Cataclysm, the goal is that healers can react to damage. Time to Live calculations are supposed to be significantly higher. So let's just double that. We'll say you can go from 8 seconds to 8.8 seconds. The important thing here isn't that the values stay the same - it's that is there that much of a difference between having 8 or 9 seconds to live? Does that much more health really help healers react? At some point that amount of EH just doesn't really help that much, and healers have enough of a buffer to react to anything they need to.

    Similarly, a 5% chance to avoid damage doesn't sound like much, but statistically that's 5% less damage you take (actually it's mroe than that, but that's easier to say). Assuming healers aren't overhealing so much and that mana matters, that means that 5% less damage you take over a fight corresponds to 5% less mana they needed. That can make a fight 5% longer, which means that your DPS has 5% more time to kill the boss.

    That's the paradigm they're going for. I don't know if they'll succeed, and I suspect that tanks will always love their stam because it provides a large number like DPS has. But I also suspect that damage reduction and avoidance are going to be a lot more important, and that ultimately armor is going to rule the day.

  9. #89
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    I've asked this before and no one seems to know (because they haven't released the raids yet?) Do bosses have Expertise which acts as a permanent dodge/parry debuff?

    I think that's going to be critical, is it possible to raise avoidance high enough that that will help on a near consistent basis?

    Personally, I don't think it's so much a HP versus Avoidance arguement as a run on all gear with armor, armor enchants, and anything you can do to improve armor. I think Armor becomes even more valuable, even though Blizzard has said (at least at one point) that they're going to limit (remove?) bonus armor - but things like Ony's Ring and Rot's 25 neck I think are going to be very, very valuable, even more than avoidance.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    I've asked this before and no one seems to know (because they haven't released the raids yet?) Do bosses have Expertise which acts as a permanent dodge/parry debuff?

    I think that's going to be critical, is it possible to raise avoidance high enough that that will help on a near consistent basis?

    Personally, I don't think it's so much a HP versus Avoidance arguement as a run on all gear with armor, armor enchants, and anything you can do to improve armor. I think Armor becomes even more valuable, even though Blizzard has said (at least at one point) that they're going to limit (remove?) bonus armor - but things like Ony's Ring and Rot's 25 neck I think are going to be very, very valuable, even more than avoidance.
    It can't be confirmed except that they said that they plan on having bosses with expertise.

    I don't think we're going to have very high avoidance numbers. Certainly nothing like what we have today. I also highly doubt we're going to have any interest in Rot 25 rings. It will take a lot more armor to make an impact on your character sheet in cata (the nature of inflating ratings) and the armor those provide will be tiny compared to the massive boost to stam and other stats on them.

    I suspect what we'll see most likely will be tanks gemming for Stam to boost their EH, and then reforging stats away from threat generators towards dodge and parry until they have enough to make the sponge efficient enough to get them to the end of the battle. Everything else will probably go back towards threat gen. Don'y forget that Stamina will give us threat also from Vengeance.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    It can't be confirmed except that they said that they plan on having bosses with expertise.

    I don't think we're going to have very high avoidance numbers. Certainly nothing like what we have today. I also highly doubt we're going to have any interest in Rot 25 rings. It will take a lot more armor to make an impact on your character sheet in cata (the nature of inflating ratings) and the armor those provide will be tiny compared to the massive boost to stam and other stats on them.
    Would the armor be any less signficant than now? I realize the armor cap will be increase, so obviously end game WotLK items wouldn't be valuable, but I think we have semantics difference here, I was using items like Ony's ring and Rot's neck as examples of the types of items that would be coveted rather than those specific item.

    IIRC correctly Blizz did say they didn't want to use as much green armor, so that would make 'non-traditional' armor locations (neck, ring, trinkets where armor isn't guranteed) more valuable in Cata as opposed to WotLK as you couldn't chase green armor (or at least not as much).
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  12. #92
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    Well, the availability of bonus armor is just a question of whether or not you can even add extra. Its value is entirely a question of scale and opportunity cost, which we can't really generalize about.

    They're stripping down armor a bit in the change over, but we don't know what the implication will be down the road, nor how the values will inflate (though regardless there is no reason to expect the values to scale to a different proportion than they are now).
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  13. #93
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    Encounter design matters more than any theorycrafting we can do at this point. If encounters in Cataclysm are more avoidance-friendly, we'll see a shift away from EHP-stacking strategies. If a substantial part of boss damage, either sustained or burst, is unavoidable, then the equilibrium strategy quickly shifts back to EHP stacking. So don't hold your breath.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    Why include ICC buff in a discussion about Cataclysm tanking?
    Cause usually when comparing things, you'd compare them in the 'best' scenario/settings, no? We never said there'd be such a buff in Cata @_@ and some blue post (go through MMO-champion's archives urself thx) said that Bliz wasnt too happy about the buff and will 'unlikely' give such a buff in Cata.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erobinia View Post
    Encounter design matters more than any theorycrafting we can do at this point. If encounters in Cataclysm are more avoidance-friendly, we'll see a shift away from EHP-stacking strategies. If a substantial part of boss damage, either sustained or burst, is unavoidable, then the equilibrium strategy quickly shifts back to EHP stacking. So don't hold your breath.
    From what I understand and heard, tanks hav so much hp that it is actually hard to keep them topped off. The 'weaker' (by % of max hp) heals doesnt help.

    But with the new DS, (and Vamp blood glyph?), we should be 'healing ourselves better'.

    As for stat stacking, I dont have enough info on the gems/stats conversion yet. Not to mention how the stat caps are going to behave.
    If any kind soul could point the way. Parry does sound very interesting in Cata as it can 'reduce the dmg of 2 incoming hits by 50%'. Could help make healing the tank easier/more predictable.

  16. #96
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    I saw some posts that they will nerf armor alot in the upcoming 4.0 going from 35 to 28k armor on the ptr for example.

    Are there any bonus armor pieces at 85 or armor trinkets? Or is blizz completely doing away with armor as an stat and will all pieces have regular amount of armor depending on itemlvl.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    IIRC correctly Blizz did say they didn't want to use as much green armor, so that would make 'non-traditional' armor locations (neck, ring, trinkets where armor isn't guranteed) more valuable in Cata as opposed to WotLK as you couldn't chase green armor (or at least not as much).
    Any bonus armor (armor from rings, necklaces, and additional armor on plate gear) has always been a highly sought after stat simply because of how it increases our survivability. Simply put - it's amazing. The lack of bonus armor on plate gear in Cataclysm will not change how armor on rings, necks, etc are valued.

    You aren't comparing a ring to a chest piece, you're comparing it to another ring. In many (most) cases, the armor ring wins. It has nothing to do with the stats on the chest piece - it has to do with the stats on the ring compared to what's available on other rings.

    The only thing that may change is the "cost" of the bonus armor. We don't know if it will be changed (become more expensive as far as itemization points), or if they will just only put it on a few select pieces.

    Plus, right now we aren't sacrificing anything of value for bonus armor. Right now you don't choose between armor and Stamina (excluding trinkets) you choose bewteen more armor and Dodge/Parry/Expertise/Hit/Block. For most tanks, this is a no-brainer. Come Cataclysm, they may decide to make us choose between Stamina and Armor - which will be a much harder desicion.
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    Any bonus armor (armor from rings, necklaces, and additional armor on plate gear) has always been a highly sought after stat simply because of how it increases our survivability. Simply put - it's amazing. The lack of bonus armor on plate gear in Cataclysm will not change how armor on rings, necks, etc are valued.

    You aren't comparing a ring to a chest piece, you're comparing it to another ring. In many (most) cases, the armor ring wins. It has nothing to do with the stats on the chest piece - it has to do with the stats on the ring compared to what's available on other rings.

    The only thing that may change is the "cost" of the bonus armor. We don't know if it will be changed (become more expensive as far as itemization points), or if they will just only put it on a few select pieces.

    Plus, right now we aren't sacrificing anything of value for bonus armor. Right now you don't choose between armor and Stamina (excluding trinkets) you choose bewteen more armor and Dodge/Parry/Expertise/Hit/Block. For most tanks, this is a no-brainer. Come Cataclysm, they may decide to make us choose between Stamina and Armor - which will be a much harder desicion.
    You've missed the entire reason WHY armor in non-traditional places will be even more valuable. With non-armor rings/trinkets/necks you could still hit ~36k unbuffed armor (maybe more). In Cata that number is going to drop by a lot, (well it will go up, but if you were to reduce cata numbers to WotLK).

    This, by itself, won't make armor in non-standard places more valuable, but with the other announced/expected changes:

    A) Little spam healage, basically reactionary

    B) Boss expertise and reduced base avoidance (pluss possibly a per patch reduction in the returns of avoidance rating... or is that just for offensive stats like hit/exp? --- this part I'm not sure about, just saw on MMO champions where Blizz is thinking of making the hit cap higher in 4.1.x than it is in 4.0.x - if that occurs for tanking stats too...)

    Then armor becomes something more sought after because:

    A) It makes heals more efficient (reducing a 10k hit to 9k means an incoming heal of 4.5k heals for 50% instead of 45% of damage, reducing the 'mana spongeness' of a tank)

    B) Since it may be going to be hard to get avoidance above the level going to result in fairly predicable damage reduction (through hits not taken on a fairly reliable basis), the same concept as ICC is probably going to be valuable - reduce incoming damage so when a bad hit string starts, you're more likely to be at full health (or near) and the incoming bad hit string will be for less total damage.

    So for these reasons, I think armor in non-traditional places will be the gearing choice of most progression tanks, if there's a choice to be made.

    ***

    I haven't seen anything posted on choosing between sta and armor... that would be interesting. Though I think I'd easily fall into the armor if the trade-off is close category (even if it's a loss) because of benefit this gives to your incoming heals.

    As for EH versus avoidance - that is still the point of this thread, does the current Armor/Sta model look to continue to trump an avoidance model... And I think yes, but you'll see more shifting towards armor than in the current where many just thought EH was stacking armor. I think the true design of EH, armor and stamina in conjunction, will be the desired gearing choice.
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  19. #99
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    If you take for granted that the only way a tank is going to die is if a healer runs out of mana, then it will only depends on how much damage reduction armor will provide versus the damage avoided by dodge/parry. With the advantage of armor that it is 100% reliable while more avoidance lowers the chance of long hit strings.

    The question is if there is any bonus armor on cata lvl 85 gear since they're removing most of the bonus armor on icc gear.

  20. #100
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    I would expect that any serious bonus armor (as in more than a piece here or there) will not show up until final tiers, just like in WotLK.

    I'm just guessing though.
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