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Thread: Cataclysm - The End of EHP?

  1. #21
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    Doesnt look like it will die in Cata either:

    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...ageNo=10&sid=1

    (Scroll down to GC's first post)

    Also I would like to point out that healers running out of mana might not be the only reason to get a bit more avoidance in Cata, the healers throughput could also be too low to keep up a tank with too little avoidance (pure speculation on my behalf ofc)

  2. #22
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    In every expansion (or even content patch) there's been one roadblock boss that made EH king.
    Every time Blizzard said they'd make bosses hit less hard, those bosses ended up hitting just as hard or crazy fast, if not harder.
    Every time you want to progress, ie you're in less the optimal or BiS gear, you're going to want the safety of EH.

    I remember the days of vanilla when healers would take turns wanding to take back mana. Yes avoidance was something you watched on your gear but you still went after EH. (Back in those days i didnt even know the term Effective Health, but i still pursued those stats out of instinct).

    Thinking back to TBC where i actually kept an up-to-date avoidance set, i still wouldnt wear those. The only boss i remember that i actually would 100% don the avoidance gear was the dragonhawk boss in ZA. Thinking back now, i would probably choose a higher healthpool and more active use of cooldowns than go the avoidance road again. Blizzard will be hard pressed to come up with a scenario where i'd take corpsetongue coin over an hp trinket.

  3. #23
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    It's all gonna come down to how they tweak the numbers; but I hope they create an environment where tank gearing is not mindless stacking of the pre-dominant stat. I would greatly prefer a scenario where juggling multiple stats and taking a balanced approach towards stat allocation was ideal. In the same vein as spamming the same 2 spells is boring, stacking the same stat over and over is boring.

    I almost miss crushing blows cause it FORCED you to maintain your other stats, at least when you were kitted in the best of the best the expansion had to offer.

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  4. #24
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    While I do miss crushing blows and thought it was an awesome mechanic, I also really do like it when gemming is straight forward and easy. I really would not want to theorycraft every tank that apps to see if his/her gemming is precisely optimal. It's really nice when all you have to do is go "20 parry gem? /deny"
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  5. #25
    With what GC is hinting at however, that may just be what you will have to do. It sounds like EHP is no longer going to be King but it won't be useless either. So as a tank with constantly changing gear levels and statistics, you WILL have to theorycraft to create and sustain a balance between acceptable EHP and acceptable Avoidance while not overkilling either.

    Also a huge factor in this whole mechanic is what handicap Blizzard will put on our Avoidance. While I don't see every instance having an ICC type debuff, giving bosses a set level of higher expertise to counter our Avoidance is something I can really see being implemented. Then there exists a sort of pseudo minimum of Avoidance that one has to reach in order to negate the boss' expertise. It may even become the new Defense Cap with all tanks being innately uncrittable now, to a degree that you need a total of ~30-40% Avoidance after calculating the boss' expertise in order to be endgame viable.

  6. #26
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    A good system is one where there are choices, values, and the best value is a balance not an extreme.

    If putting pure stamina in every socket, ignoring all else, is always the best choice, the system isn't interesting because there is no balance and there are no smart choices, just blind stacking. The same is true, though, of avoidance. If you only fill every socket with avoidance, without thinking or considering, the system is broken.

    Balance is tricky, elusive, but not unobtainable. The goal is to restore value to taking less damage, which they are aiming for and so far things look good (though it is months too early to be certain they will hit the mark).
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  7. #27
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    Ya, but then I have to try wtf is that? =P
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helistar View Post
    Personally, EHP is already long dead. Ok, maybe not "long", but in ICC it died. The great majority of raid wipes I was in were not related to "omg the tank died and 5khp more would have saved him", but errors in the execution done by someone (maybe the tank) which screwed things up beyond recognition.
    Sure, in fights like Festergut EHP was "the stat" (at least for the tank, the fight itself is more a DPS race), but the "hard" ones (arthas, putricide, dw) execution >>> tank EHP.
    EHP is not dead. It is still the optimal gearing option for progression raids. That ICC has a buff that makes sub-optimal tanks, healers, and DPS able to achieve progression doesn't make EHP dead. It makes it more accessible to those who are more casual and who may not being using optimal setups (all roles, not just tanks).

    There is a signficant difference.

    Execution was always more important than gear (all the gear in the world won't save you if you don't move out of the patch of colored ground) but when making gearing choices to improve performance EHP is still the optimal setup until you're farming H25 LK and H25 Halion.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helistar View Post
    Personally, EHP is already long dead. Ok, maybe not "long", but in ICC it died. The great majority of raid wipes I was in were not related to "omg the tank died and 5khp more would have saved him", but errors in the execution done by someone (maybe the tank) which screwed things up beyond recognition.
    Sure, in fights like Festergut EHP was "the stat" (at least for the tank, the fight itself is more a DPS race), but the "hard" ones (arthas, putricide, dw) execution >>> tank EHP.
    I fail to see how this changes the gearing method for the tank. Execution has always been the situation in every fight that mattered. Gearing for EHP isn't an "I win" button for raids, it was part of the execution of surviving the fight reliably enough for the rest of your raid to execute their parts. Saying execution is the key factor not EHP is like saying hitting homeruns in baseball is the key to winning, not having a baseball bat to swing with in the first place. You can't hit homeruns without a bat in your hand, and you can't take down progression fights if your tanks aren't reliably alive.

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Right, but that's the important thing there - survivability is a measure of how long it takes without heals before you die.

    If it takes you 10-12 seconds to die without heals, you can indeed come up with some random story that gets you in that situation - but it's going to be exceedingly rare. If you can survive for 6-8 seconds without heals, you've sacrificed very little by comparison; the first 6 seconds are hugely more valuable than the last 6. At that point, you should make it easier for healers to heal you - and that is accomplished via reactive healing and avoidance.
    I think Felhoof got it the rightest.
    The EH theory is about giving healers more breathing room - to make up for mistakes, reaction time, lag, whatever. If "breathing room" is built-in to raid enounters by default (read: 3-5 hits to kill a tank) than more EH just becomes slightly less useful, but not completely irrelevant.

    Also: who's to say the 3-5 hit mark (6-8 sec) isn't designed around tanks stacking Stamina in the first place? O.O
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  11. #31
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    Somebody correct me here, I'm not in beta.

    With the removal of defense, all the avoidance that went with it will simply vanish. So remove 20-30% avoidance right there with the loss of defense (i.e. continuation of Chill of the Throne by inherent design). I imagine druid dodge from agi will be dialed down as well.

    Armor will be still hard to get. The removal of armor from agility is punitive, it's not like any tank got any meaningful quantities of armor from agi.

    I have always believed the "stamina" of the raid rested squarely on the tank's HP and the healer's mana bar. They are just tinkering at the other half of the equation, by making stamina trivial and healer mana relevant. I hope that the large health pools will also bring down the 60-90% overhealing we are seeing today, with smaller heals and larger health pools.

    What I see coming from this, is that tanks will only be blamed for not holding threat, being squishy will be less of an issue. Healers on the other hand, will be under the microscope. If the tank dies because they stood in the fire, it's the healer's fault "because everybody know that in cata it's all about how good your healer is". Especially the first few days of Cata, tanks will chain pull like fiends and expect the same results, only to find the healer constantly drinking and getting cranky about it, much as I get cranky healing a tank who is barely geared but still wants to clear HHoR in 5 minutes.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    Also: who's to say the 3-5 hit mark (6-8 sec) isn't designed around tanks stacking Stamina in the first place? O.O
    Who stacks stamina? EH isn't stamina stacking XD
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Who stacks stamina? EH isn't stamina stacking XD
    I don't get it
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  14. #34
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    Um... trying to point out that most tanks here don't stack stamina. They gear for EH. Stacking stamina will result in less EH than gearing for EH because stamina stackers will choose less valuable (but higher stamina) rings/necks/weps when the options present themselves because they choose the higher stamina item over the higher effective health. (Examples include clutch over most ICC ring drops, H-Valk ring, Ony Ring over all ICC drops but Devriums, armor neck, etc)

    The question was trying to lightly get to this point. Sorry if it was a little too unclear.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    With the removal of defense, all the avoidance that went with it will simply vanish. So remove 20-30% avoidance right there with the loss of defense (i.e. continuation of Chill of the Throne by inherent design). I imagine druid dodge from agi will be dialed down as well.
    Sort of, yes. That said, they're also removing Anticipation and Deflection, and generally retargeting avoidance. Also remember that the *itemization* is not just vanishing, and that defense is being channeled into other values (like dodge). The rest of the system will be balanced around that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Armor will be still hard to get. The removal of armor from agility is punitive, it's not like any tank got any meaningful quantities of armor from agi.
    That's not entirely true. Base plus an enchant or two, and those who used Agi/Stam gems here and there could have upwards of 400-500 armor from Agi. That's a little hit. At the moment they're also stripping out a bunch of the bonus armor. Again, it is all getting rebalanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    I have always believed the "stamina" of the raid rested squarely on the tank's HP and the healer's mana bar. They are just tinkering at the other half of the equation, by making stamina trivial and healer mana relevant. I hope that the large health pools will also bring down the 60-90% overhealing we are seeing today, with smaller heals and larger health pools.
    Well, that's the ticket. They aren't trivializing health, they're just restoring the healer mana side of the equation. If healers *can* suffer for mana, it is less desirable/smart to be the tank who takes more to heal. That doesn't mean health stops being valuable, it just means it isn't the only value since your healers can just spam overheal you without consequence.

    Overhealing *should* die from good healers because they A.) don't have to spam you full to prevent a rapid death, B.) can't afford to grossly overheal you without penalty, and C.) heal sizes relative to total health *should* drop for the standard, more efficient heals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    What I see coming from this, is that tanks will only be blamed for not holding threat, being squishy will be less of an issue. Healers on the other hand, will be under the microscope. If the tank dies because they stood in the fire, it's the healer's fault "because everybody know that in cata it's all about how good your healer is". Especially the first few days of Cata, tanks will chain pull like fiends and expect the same results, only to find the healer constantly drinking and getting cranky about it, much as I get cranky healing a tank who is barely geared but still wants to clear HHoR in 5 minutes.
    Not an unreasonable expectation, I'd wager. People do not adapt to change well, even when they are told to expect it.

    That was often the environment in BC; tanks' survival wasn't a question, usually, of whether or not they doing something wrong. Among smarter people it just became a question mark, though. You have to look at the smartness/tool use of the healer, and the gear level of the tank to figure out if the healer couldn't keep up, or if the tank was unreasonably hard to heal.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Um... trying to point out that most tanks here don't stack stamina. They gear for EH. Stacking stamina will result in less EH than gearing for EH because stamina stackers will choose less valuable (but higher stamina) rings/necks/weps when the options present themselves because they choose the higher stamina item over the higher effective health.
    Wait, what?

    Usually the hallmark of EHP is the pushing stam gems in every socket, thus stacking stam. I get what you're saying, that it is more than just stam, but stacking stam on two of your larger player chosen elements (gems/enchants) *is* a primary tool.
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  17. #37
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    I don't want to lose control over being "squishy". A good tank should be separated from a poor one in more areas than just threat. Effective cooldown management for more than just avoiding the occasional "one" ability from a boss is a really distinctive factor, and should continue to be. I think that it will, but what I dislike is the perception that tanks shouldn't be as effective as they can be in survival, because it doesn't matter. If a healer runs out of mana healing the tank, it could be the tank's fault just as much as it could be the healer's fault.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Wait, what?

    Usually the hallmark of EHP is the pushing stam gems in every socket, thus stacking stam. I get what you're saying, that it is more than just stam, but stacking stam on two of your larger player chosen elements (gems/enchants) *is* a primary tool.
    It is true that our options are limited, but stacking stamina ISN'T what we do. We gem/chant stamina because we have no viable alternatives in those cases. But it's isn't mindless stamina stacking. The term 'stamina stacking' implies trying to maximize HP, not EH and using that term instead of EH gearing leads to misperceptions about what EH is and why it's valuable.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    It is true that our options are limited, but stacking stamina ISN'T what we do. We gem/chant stamina because we have no viable alternatives in those cases. But it's isn't mindless stamina stacking. The term 'stamina stacking' implies trying to maximize HP, not EH and using that term instead of EH gearing leads to misperceptions about what EH is and why it's valuable.
    Ok, that is fair, but the only place where Stamina isn't the choice of blind stamina stackers and EH maximizers alike is in the nitpicking over specific gear pieces (like sometimes taking a lower level item for the superior bonus armor at the expense of a little stam). You cannot socket for armor (at least, Armor through agility doesn't outweigh the stam you could get instead), and the only slot where armor and stam compete beyond gear selection, is on your glove enchant.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Ok, that is fair, but the only place where Stamina isn't the choice of blind stamina stackers and EH maximizers alike is in the nitpicking over specific gear pieces (like sometimes taking a lower level item for the superior bonus armor at the expense of a little stam). You cannot socket for armor (at least, Armor through agility doesn't outweigh the stam you could get instead), and the only slot where armor and stam compete beyond gear selection, is on your glove enchant.
    Its usually true that if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and moves like a duck... but in this case I refuse to be a duck! (but... GO DUCKS! Can't wait for college football, okay, that's off-topic).
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