Reply With QuoteI think you've answered your own question there - you've just compared a 106 damage reduced in a 20 second event (2 sec per swing right?) to an infinitely long event that may or may not avoid 226 damage.Originally Posted by Thaurissan
Actually, he has a lot of valid points.
For 5man content.
So, if you wanna be really good at running Uthgarde Keep, Halls of Stone and Naxx10 in 264 gear, follow Thaurissan's ideas.
Otherwise, EH>avoidance.
I think you've answered your own question there - you've just compared a 106 damage reduced in a 20 second event (2 sec per swing right?) to an infinitely long event that may or may not avoid 226 damage.
What did I drop ?
I didn't notice this post before!
Most mobs that swing at me 10 times for 1000 damage get blocked ten times, and I'll take no damage from them whatsoever.
I used a small number to make it as simple as possible...
No matter how much avoidance gear you wear and how many avoidance gems you use in your gear, you WILL take strings of multiple hits in a row in ICC and Ruby Sanctum because of the massive nerf to our avoidance. Therefore, imo, it's pretty much "hopeless" to try and build an avoidance set which will come anywhere close to a (much easier to put together) solid EH set for tanking those 2 raids (which are the only end-game raids atm).
Overall, an avoidance tank will take less damage than an EH tank most of the time. It's not about reducing your total damage taken (over the entire course of a fight) tho, as much as it is about reducing your damage taken per swing.
TLDR: Yes, the coin is not nearly as effective as stamina/armor trinkets in the end-game content that's out right now.
** However, the coin is very good, imo, on 2-3 older fights which still might give some more casual raids a bit of trouble. 1 is Algalon, and the 2nd is Yogg+0. There's no dodge debuff in ulduar, and on those 2 fights the tank is taking melee swings at a very fast rate. Could also be semi-useful vs heroic Anub'arak if you're struggling to put together an unhittable set. **
Man, I wore my maximum armor (minus weapon, since I don't unequip my 284 anymore) set last week for ICC25 heroic and I was amazed at how well it seemed to work. Granted, I did get lucky with avoidance on some of the fights (almost seemed as if the debuff wasn't in place), but I took WAY less damage, per hit and overall, compared to the other warrior tanking with me (and myself in previous weeks). I felt like superman. Definitely going to start wearing that gearset more often so I can get some more logs to look over. Also can't wait to get the halion trinket to add to my set. Should be able to reach 42k unbuffed with that baby equipped!
Edit: yay, got it tonight. 42,064!
Last edited by Dragaan; 07-20-2010 at 08:55 PM.
Daaaayyyyuuuummmnnnnnn
[Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
Druid tank here (warrior tank alt though), so its a little different for me, but all through this expansion I have maximized my armor every chance I could get and every healer told me I was MUCH easier to keep alive. I was floating ~37k buffed (and black heart was pumping me to almost cap) when I entered ICC and now am low 40s.
All I know is healers LOVE healing me even though I take A LOT more damage over the course of any fight since I effectively have very low dodge (WoL confirms this ... I usually take 20% more overall damage than my DK tanking buddy). No one is running out of mana and I never run out of life ... simple as that. In the end that's the real key here. Tank healers can heal you all day long so it really doesn't matter how much damage I mitigate, all that matters is if I'm impossible to kill with a string of hard hits. The only way to ensure that is to absolutely maximize your EH, end of story. The only concession I have ever made in this regard is I've had to slowly try and work on my TPS because my single target is just falling behind the DPS ... but this is a known issue with bears anyhow at this point.
You get my favorite person of the day award /hug.
[Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
Heres another one.
I reached the armor cap or very close to it, with TBH proc, every piece of bonus armor gear except the chest and using Unbreakable Armor in my Frost spec.
Ya, you can easily cap vs a lv 83/boss with a proc from the black heart or the corpse tongue coin if you have most of the bonus armor pieces. W/o a large armor proc, it's impossible to hit tho. Armor cap vs an 83 is, what, ~49.5k?
49,905 I think?
An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer
With stoneskin totem, Imp devotion aura, TBH proc while using all the bonus armor pieces at lvl 277 and using Unbreakable armor it seems easy to go over the cap. But I'm not sure if it will show up on the character sheet
See to me... it looks as if CTC offers the best of both worlds. Not only does it increase your dodge, which essentially means you have a chance at taking ZERO damage, while armor means that you have a 100% chance of taking less damage.
CTC offers 152 dodge 100% of the time, which is over a 3% dodge increase, which then means you have a 3% higher chance to take ZERO physcial damage. And at 35% health you then gain 5712 armor, which is 3920 more armor than the Glyph offers.
So the glyph offers a 9.725% damage reduction against a level 83 mob, and the CTC brings in a 25.56% damage reduction for 10 Seconds against level 83 mobs, WHILE still providing it's 3%+ Dodge increase which equals NO DAMAGE. And that 10 seconds is MORE than enough time for a healer to get a spell off, since (I believe) the longest cast time for a heal is about 3.5 seconds.
it's actually closer to 2% dodge after DRs.
The proc has a 30 second ICD.
Glyph gives you the armor all the time. The highest uptime possible of CTC is 33% (10 seconds out of every 30 seconds). 5712/3 = 1904 armor on average at best, but I consider 33% uptime low and that's the HIGHEST POSSIBLE uptime. Plus glyph has a dodge cooldown if you really want it.
[Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
~5700 armor does NOT reduce damage by 25% for 10 seconds.
As a tank, I don't die from random hits through-out the fight. I don't die because I didn't reduce the damage by 226 instead of 112 on average, over the fight.
I die because the mechanics have taken me or the healers out of range of each other and I hit a bad streak of 3 or 4 or 5 straight hits.
I will always prefer to gear so I can make it so that a fatal streak goes from 3 hits to 4 hits 100% of the time, or from 4 hits to 5 hits 100% than some RNG chance that the streak will be interrupted.
I'm sorry, but a 1 in 50 chance (2% dodge after DR) of a that bad streak being broken up is not as valuable to me as working toward making 3 hits to dead 4 and 4 hits to dead 5.
I am a tank. I don't like chance. I like certainty. I gear armor first. I gear stamina second. I gleefully take what dodge/parry/block is offered after that. But my job is to stay alive. Gearing for static EH over RNG maximizes the certainty that I can make it through a longer bad streak or need less heals to survive a bad streak.
Glyph reduces the impact of every hit in the streak, making the needed heals smaller to survive. CTC gives me a 1 in 50 per swing in the streak to end the streak. I choose Glyph.
An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer
Armor too, is effected by diminishing returns. Which has yet to be stated in the thread. Therefore DR needs to be factored into the equation for Armor to have FULLY accurate numbers.
And Logansis, yes it does. Feel free to play around with the numbers yourself.
http://rehfeld.us/wow/damage-reduction.html
If you have 35000 armor than your damage reduction is 67.783%
If you get a proc for 5700 armor then your armor goes up to 40700 bringing your damage reduction to: 70.986%
70.986 - 67.783 = 3.203% reduction in damage.
Now if you had zero armor at all then went to 5700, it would be a 25.52% damage reduction.
The DRs are armor gets hard capped before they get too steep to be less beneficial though, and the more armor you have, the further your HP goes, etc. etc. It's an interrellation that's actually decently linear.
[Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
the reason we haven't brought up DRs on armor is because we've been talking about the % mitigation it provides for gear levels at ICC. Thaurrisan has even given us the info that it gives him a 1.06% mitigation. That's the number we've been using, but all of this is irrelevant because the truth of the matter is that the armor is better than dodge because it makes you MORE healable. That's it. take your damage taken over time over a long period of time metrics and throw em out the door, because it's not about average damage taken over time, it's about WHEN you get hit by 5 continuous hits, CAN you survive them, given heals. If not. then you're dead, and all the avoidance in the world won't help you, but even 1.06% mitigation, combined with healing, can make for survival scenarios. AD doesn't change this, Will of the Necropolis doesn't change this. It is the fact of life for any progression tank, that stacking EHP, that means Stamina and Armor, are the way to RELIABLY survive boss encounters to give their raid, the highest chance of getting a boss down. THAT is what progression tanking is about. If you outgear an instance, whether it be 5 mans, or old content, no one cares if you stack spirit, you'll probably tank just fine at that point anyways.
CTC is just a bad trinket, relying on dodge is relying on RNG, and RNG gets you killed in current mechanics of the game. getting a bonus proc on armor, to get you an extra 3-4% armor WHEN you're already less than 35% means you're usage of said armor is going to be only a small window where you're already on the brink of death, the 1.06% always means you're constantly taking less damage, and are able to be steadily kept alive by healers. Spiking armor at 35% health isn't going to be noticeable by healers, they aren't going to say "oh wow he suddenly took 4% less damage, my heals are more effective right now!"
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