Corpse Tongue Coin

[Sky]

I think it'd be calculated as 5.2% damage reduction, going by 100% - (65.7/69.3).

Armor does not really get worse the more you have, it's not the best way to think of armor as damage reduction per point of armor but rather how much less damage you take compared to a lower value of armor. For example, 30k armor vs 35k armor, how much less damage does 35k armor takes compared t0 30k armor?

[Martie]

I don't understand how are you comparing them ?

The essence has 157 stamina while fully raidbuffed with kings, ICC 25% buff and 9% stamina modifier in your talents(bigger for druids).
While the CTC has a static 3.3% dodge that is affected by diminishing returns.

I take the experience I have in tanking, combine it with some theorycrafting and math, and make a decision.
Yep, it's mostly opinion. But since there are so many fluctuating variables that it's impossible to make a mathematically sound call on it, an informed opion is as good as it gets.

I could have given you some hard numbers to go by, like saying 30 stamina is better then 35 avoidance ratings, but I think that my comparison works just as well.

Oh, and Thaurissan, care to explain why it's an absurde comment? Nobody argues that 30 stam beats 35 ratings (1.17 rating/stam), but when it's down to 111 stam vs 152 ratings (1.37 rating/stam) there's some kind of absurdity going on?
How about using a stam/avoidance gem for a 6 or 9stam socket bonus? People will widely tell you to put pure stam gems in there. (1.11 and 1.67 rating per stam, respectively.)
How about putting 275 health on your chest instead of 22 defense rating? Absurde as well? I mean, 275 health is like 18 stamina in ICC. (1.22 rating/stam.)
Or are you talking about the unreliable armor proc of the coin that probably won't save your life any more then the Essences proc?

[uglie]

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...g-mechanics%29

now can we plz close this age old debate of ehp vs avoidance? its getting really old.

[Passive]

Uglie, I'm afraid it has crept into that thread too. There is tons written on the case of EH vs avoidance, so when someone posts something like "wait, I think avoidance is better" we try to word it differently or give a different example to show why indeed we do what we do. I guess its like flogging a dead horse sometimes however

[Mend]

I take the experience I have in tanking, combine it with some theorycrafting and math, and make a decision.
Yep, it's mostly opinion. But since there are so many fluctuating variables that it's impossible to make a mathematically sound call on it, an informed opion is as good as it gets.

But in your experience tanking, has the passive 3% avoidance and 4% damage reduction proc saved your life more than the 157 stamina from the essence trinket ?

My guess would be no, if you have reached the 35% health mark than it is very unlikely that the small damage reduction from the proc or the passive avoidance might save your life. But thats just a guess.

[Carisma]

Just because a new raid comes out, doesn't mean they automatically need to make all prior gear completely obsolete. They also are not required to place an item for every item slot in both 10 and 25man. I agree the RS tanking trinket is not ideal, but it is also a nice trinket to have if you have nothing better. Personally I believe they did not drop the ball on RS at all, the encounter was very well designed and is fun, while challenging at the same time.

At the same time, when you run the raid once and you get the achieve, if there the gear is not there to drive you to go back in, why go back in? Throughout WotLK the trinket slot item has been that item that you went into a raid to get, including ToC25. With a Bad tank Trinket, other than devoted Tanks to a friend/guild, why would you go back in? The trinket for the other 3 roles was actually really good, and it is the second time in this tier of raiding, the tank trinket was not so great. All I am saying is the loot option as far as plate tanking goes was not the best, the raid encounter is fun, but not worth doing more than once.

[Dannyl]

i hate this trinket and totally agree.... and then RS 25 comes out and the tank trinket in there is not much better.. and they do not even put a trinket in 10 man... way to drop the ball there.

I'm not quite sure I see the light on this comment. Are you talking about the Petrified Twilight Scale? I'm a bit surprised cause as far as armor trinkets go, this is maybe the sexiest trinket currently out there, at least for physical melee fights. I've tried it several times on 25-man HC Saurfang and the feedback from healers is positive.

[Martie]

But in your experience tanking, has the passive 3% avoidance and 4% damage reduction proc saved your life more than the 157 stamina from the essence trinket ?

First of all, it's 111 stamina, not 157. If you are going to modify one stat with all kinds of fancy modifiers, you should do it to both. Since you can't do it to both, don't. It just makes it a sloppy comparison.

Now, it is impossible to say what avoidance saved you, so I won't. I also haven't used my essence since late Ulduar.

[uglie]

Uglie, I'm afraid it has crept into that thread too. There is tons written on the case of EH vs avoidance, so when someone posts something like "wait, I think avoidance is better" we try to word it differently or give a different example to show why indeed we do what we do. I guess its like flogging a dead horse sometimes however

yeah i know some is always going to think that avoidance is better. maybe we need a catch phrase for the EHP vs avoidance debate. Maybe something like: " EHP is the friend that's always there for you, avoidance is the friend that MIGHT be there. Which friend do you want? "
Yeah a little long for a catchphrase but i think it might help get the point across.

[Passive]

The most basic way of thinking about it is that a boss can either hit you once for ALL your health, or twice for half your health each time, with heals in between the 2 hits.

[Carisma]

I'm not quite sure I see the light on this comment. Are you talking about the Petrified Twilight Scale? I'm a bit surprised cause as far as armor trinkets go, this is maybe the sexiest trinket currently out there, at least for physical melee fights. I've tried it several times on 25-man HC Saurfang and the feedback from healers is positive.

armor is nice, but the second effect is crap. i don't find putting on a trinket for the extra 2% physical damage reduction (if even a full 2%) worth it. As a paladin or warrior tank goes, the extra armor is not a bid deal, and healers should not have to much trouble keeping you up, if you have a 6k GS, unless you have bad healers.

I would also like to add if you are want/need a armor trinket, that "Unidentifiable organ" would be leaps and bounds better than the trinket out of RS, but back to the Corpse Coin trinket - this is just a reverse of the rs trinket. Trinkets with the effect " melee attack which cause you to go below 35% health cause you to gain..." effect to me are bad. Most fights you will never see the effect go off, and most occasions you should not see it go off on fights you are taking physical damage.

[sifuedition]

One of the biggest things that people forget to consider when they start to evaluate armor vs avoidance is that armor gets better the more you have and avoidance gets worse. Diminishing returns on avoidance makes the itemization budget an inefficient use beyond what comes on the basic slots.

Additionally, it seems that most who start to look favorably at avoidance trinkets don't get what really happens with statistics like these. 10% does NOT mean you will avoid 1 out of ten hits. It means over the course of thousands of itterations, it will average out to one in ten. Every time you flip a coin, it is a 50% chance of heads no matter how many times you had heads in a row. Every time you are swung at, you only have a 8% (or 4% increased) chance to dodge. That is really small and a good tank doesn't want to rely on that. Over such a small itteration as a 5-10 minute fight, the odds of a string of three hits in a row are MUCH higher than three dodges in a row even fully stacking avoidance.

EDIT

As far as that goes, I haven't tried the numbers myself although I know there are great threads on this site about it. I would not find it unusual that even with avoidance trinkets, the odd of ten hits in a row are higher than two avoids in a row in ICC.

[Thaurissan]

Every time you are swung at, you only have a 8% (or 4% increased) chance to dodge. That is really small and a good tank doesn't want to rely on that. Over such a small itteration as a 5-10 minute fight, the odds of a string of three hits in a row are MUCH higher than three dodges in a row even fully stacking avoidance.

In this comparison, adding 1792 armor from the Glyph only reduces physical damage by an extra 1%. Considering that the dodge on the Coin is more than twice as much damage reduction on average than the Glyph, and the fact that the Coin gives you 5712 armor when you go under 35% health (which is the danger zone in question), I think people are very wrong about this trinket.

I'm not saying it's the greatest of all time, but I am saying it's better than the Glyph.

[Mend]

In this comparison, adding 1792 armor from the Glyph only reduces physical damage by an extra 1%. Considering that the dodge on the Coin is more than twice as much damage reduction on average than the Glyph, and the fact that the Coin gives you 5712 armor when you go under 35% health (which is the danger zone in question), I think people are very wrong about this trinket.

I'm not saying it's the greatest of all time, but I am saying it's better than the Glyph.

I really think it's an unfair comparison, the glyph is 1 tier older than the CTC.

Compare the CTC to trinkets of the same ilvl, that would be CSK, SFF, Organ and the RS trinket.

In this case the CTC doesn't stand a chance if you are looking at it from an EHP point, The 4% avoidance(Considering H version) will reduce more overall damage in a full raid clear maybe, or an extremely long boss fight which don't exist at this time. But relying on the avoidance and the dmg reduction proc to save your life more than the 228 stam or 2k+ armor from the other trinkets is not ideal at all.

Avoidance is not bad at all, it is great. But if you have to sacrifice a trinket slot to gain 4% avoidance and 4% damage reduction, over getting 228 stamina that is affected by modifiers is not very ideal.

[Aggathon]

In this comparison, adding 1792 armor from the Glyph only reduces physical damage by an extra 1%. Considering that the dodge on the Coin is more than twice as much damage reduction on average than the Glyph, and the fact that the Coin gives you 5712 armor when you go under 35% health (which is the danger zone in question), I think people are very wrong about this trinket.

I'm not saying it's the greatest of all time, but I am saying it's better than the Glyph.

I have a feeling we're getting trolled here because you keep ignoring the core argument here.

No one is denying that dodge OVER TIME would be more damage reduction, but tanks don't die over an extended amount of time, they die in a relatively short amount of time where the probability of taking a hit streak is pretty good, especially with the reduced avoidance from Chill of the Throne (see section 6 in the EHP thread already posted that you've been posting in).

Further more, OVER TIME, you're actually more likely to take a hit string. Statistically speaking you are going to take a hit string that will kill you. Lets say you have 50% total avoidance in ICC25 (a high number, you'd really have to stack avoidance to get there).

The statistics here get REALLY complicated because it's a run series (again outlined in section 6). But basically the odds of taking 5 hits in a row when swung at 5 times is .5^5 (The full equation is (5!/(5!0!))(.5)^5(.5)^0 which simplifies to (5!/(5!*1))(.5^5)(1) = 1*.5^5 = .5^5). which is 0.03125 or about 3.125%. Over an average that means you have a 3.125% chance to be hit 5 times in a row, which WILL eventually happen, even if it's low. For a 100 swing fight based on the runs calculations you have roughly a 90% change you will get hit 5 times in a row (seems like it should be lower, but again, go read that thread and the other threads associated with it, the statistics . You really wanna bank on that 10% chance whereas if you stacked EHP instead you could increase that number to 6 hits in a row and give your healers more time to recover if the worst case scenario does recover?

There is litterally TONS of analysis and 1st hand experience about these scenarios, in ICC25 EHP is > RNG. Many argue that armor is SO good that it's better than stam because it also increases effective healing per second and should be valued above stamina for many fights, especially mostly physical damage fights.

[Thaurissan]

I really think it's an unfair comparison, the glyph is 1 tier older than the CTC.

Compare the CTC to trinkets of the same ilvl, that would be CSK, SFF, Organ and the RS trinket.

In this case the CTC doesn't stand a chance if you are looking at it from an EHP point, The 4% avoidance(Considering H version) will reduce more overall damage in a full raid clear maybe, or an extremely long boss fight which don't exist at this time. But relying on the avoidance and the dmg reduction proc to save your life more than the 228 stam or 2k+ armor from the other trinkets is not ideal at all.

Avoidance is not bad at all, it is great. But if you have to sacrifice a trinket slot to gain 4% avoidance and 4% damage reduction, over getting 228 stamina that is affected by modifiers is not very ideal.

When it comes to Stamina vs. Dodge, I don't disagree at all. Stamina will always have the advantage of increasing your survival against all sources of damage. Armor vs. Dodge is a different story.

[Aggathon]

When it comes to Stamina vs. Dodge, I don't disagree at all. Stamina will always have the advantage of increasing your survival against all sources of damage. Armor vs. Dodge is a different story.

But... stamina and armor are interrelated... read section 1!!!! uuggghhh.

Seriously, at this point I really think you're trolling. You're just ignoring pretty much everything we've said with zero evidence to back up your points.

[Tinytankz]

I can so dodge spells.........

[Mend]

I can so dodge spells.........

I always though that jumping out of the frostbolt would let you dodge it, and reflecting the frostbolt with your shiny blade would let you parry it. But then ....

Mend gets hit for 15000(9000 overkill)

[MellvarTank]

Mellvar loots Mend.