1. Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma
if you're saying the CTC's armor proc provides 3% EHP, it's a bit skewed because you're going to already be at a near death scenario where it largely won't save you, being <35%
Internal cd aside, I wonder how this point should specifically be calculated. I'm inclined to think that we'd have to reduce the EH% gained by a function of what health is left. Assuming that's the case, the actual EH% gained by CTC's proc is probably something in the neighborhood of 1% EH not 3%.

I have to agree with Kaze here too as I'm something of an EH purest as well. If it's not 100% reliable then it's not actually EH. If the proc didn't have an internal cd then I'd say your arguments have merit, but because it does, I just don't think you can evaluate any aspect of CTC as contributing towards EH.
Last edited by veneretio; 08-11-2010 at 10:42 AM.

2. Knight-Captain of Obvious
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If you post math on the site, expect scrutiny, do not take offense. People have spent countless hours calculating these things and trying to find ways to quantify them.

As Kazey said, you simply cannot properly value Avoidance in terms of EH gains.

3. yeah, i mean we could take a standard progression level tank in ICC, who has say, 75k buffed hp thanks to the zone buff. and around i dunno 32k armor. the proc would fire off at 35% of 75k hp so that'd be like 26250. lets assume you get at least 1 decent heal off in that time as the swing fires. so you'd gain what. 10k back? maybe 15k? so you'd be around 36k to 40k hp when the CTC proc is most prevalent, gaining 6426 armor. at 32k armor he has 65.796 reduction. this would jump him to ~38.5k armor which is now 69.829 reduction. for 10 seconds.

so he gains about 4.03% reduction, for 10 seconds, at 36k-40k hp. uhh, anyone wanna plug this into an EH calculator for me? gotta run down to lab.

4. Knight-Captain of Obvious
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111098.117 (38k hp and 65.796% reduction)
and
125948.7587 (38k hp and 69.829% reduction)

Crap... good catch Agg, there was supposed to be 3 1's at the beginning.
Last edited by MellvarTank; 08-11-2010 at 11:18 AM.

5. I think you messed up a decimal in there.

11,098 vs. 125,948. Somehow I think someone with 38k HP has more EHP than 11k =P.

6. I simply just go very irritated over people trying to criticise over things which to me seemed like they only read the headline of or barely understood the argumentation.
Also, Kaze and I have a pretty great grasp of what goes on in the EHP vs. Avoidance department, you even quoted my thread to make your points =P.

We're with ya man, just tryin' to help.

7. 14850 EHP gain for 10 seconds, that's about at 13% gain, right? 14850/111098 = 0.13367

8. Originally Posted by Aggathon
I think you messed up a decimal in there.

11,098 vs. 125,948. Somehow I think someone with 38k HP has more EHP than 11k =P.
Nope, because EHP is linear and lines are one dimensional. Since it's from another dimension it does strange stuff sometimes.

Silly Aggathon.

Regarding the RS trinket I'd like to give my most BASIC opinions on it.

10 If Current EHP < next hit taken go to 30
20 Print "I'm really bad at programming anything BTW"
30 END
RUN

For those of you not so tech savvy people, what I'm basically saying is that CTC raises your Current EHP at a point where Current EHP is already at a live or die stage. If your health is already at the threshold where the next hit kills and CTC can't bring bring that up to 2 hits the proc is almost completely wasted. On the other hand the Ruby Sanc trinket flat out increases the value of your EHP and when your Current EHP dips down to the live or die stage rather than giving you a flat boost that wouldn't be enough to survive the next swing anyway it gives you a chance to survive the next swing by dodging it. To me this is why the RS proc is more valuable than the CTC proc.

9. Originally Posted by Aggathon
14850 EHP gain for 10 seconds, that's about at 13% gain, right? 14850/111098 = 0.13367
This is starting to derail the actual usefulness of what I was talking about, even Kaze adding in the heal is a little wishy washy. The point is to be able to take the proc and effectively convert it into a passive armor bonus so that we can accurately compare the EH returns of CTC with the armor trinket. I think the best way to go about this is to look at is as such:

HP = 75k, Armor = 32k (using Kaze's made up numbers) which makes starting EH = 219274

Armor trinket is obviously the following:
Armor = 32000 + 1792 = 33792
HP = 75000
EH = 227353
EH% gain = 3.68%

CTC Proc should play out something like this:
Part 1
Armor = 32000 + 6426 = 38426
HP = 75000 * 0.3 (30% may not be the best # here) = 22500
EH1 = 74474
Part 2
Armor = 32000
HP = 75000 * 0.7 (always the remainder of whatever we use above) = 52500
EH2 = 153492

EH1 + EH2 = 74474 + 153492 = 227966
EH% gain = 3.96%

Now ideally what we do is actually graph the CTC on different points when it enters "proc mode" from 35% to 1%, but I'm not going to put in that much time because ultimately, the trinket has an internal cd so the data is not going to represent true EH. I do find it interesting though that at a 30% HP trigger point that the CTC appears to offer better EH returns than the armor trinket. (but once again, this proc has an internal cd, so this isn't reliable)

Anyway, you guys roped me into doing some useless math, /hate. But that was the curiosity I was talking about. I must say, what's most interesting is that they could actually remove the internal cd on CTC and it really wouldn't be that ridiculous. After all, remember it's ilvl 277 and we're comparing it to an ilvl 245.

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well, there's really no reason to compare it to the 245 armor trinket, when there's a 271 & 264 armor version that are easy to get (and a 284 that's not so easy).

11. Easy to get? I've killed PP10 probably a hundred times over my characters and never one time seen the trinket drop. NOT EVEN SEEN IT DROP much less actually got the damn thing.

I'll easy to get you...

12. I got it on my second try...

13. :|

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I am main-tanking LK 10 tomorrow, 1st real attempt (yes yes, my guild is way behind, whatevs).

I have given a lot of thought to CTC vs Black Heart vs Glyph, and decided to go with CTC. Here's why:

With the 30% buff and an OT who is a bit less-geared than I, I will try solo-tanking LK in phase 2 and 3. So I will eat every soul reaper, probably for 42-45k with priest resist. I did the math, and unless I have 69231 HP when soul reaper hits, I will drop below 35%, assuming a 45k hit (a full 50k hit would require 76923HP to not drop below 35%). I have 43.3k HP unbuffed, and around 71k with my 10man buffs and the 30%.

So unless I am 100% healed when soul reaper hits, I will be taken below 35%. CTC should proc every time I eat a soul reaper, then, unless I dropped below 35% from some melee damage before which threw off it's CD. After soul reaper hits, LK's melee haste is up 100% for 5 sec, meaning a burst of physical damage. Let's say I have 69.2k-45k left = 24.2k. The extra 5712 armor reduces those incoming melee hits by about 4% for me (I'm around 31500 armor unbuffed).

I'm a full true EHP believer, but I'm not worried about taking 3 or 5 or 5.2 or whatever RNG hits in a row. I'm worried about surviving to the next soul reaper in LK 10. I'm going to go with a 4% melee damage reduction when I'm under 35% and he's hitting me 100% faster, giving my healers a little time and forgivability to get me up. And the CTC buff lasts 5sec longer than the LK's haste buff, so it should be easy. Glyph can't be that situational, and Black Heart is only better if it happens to proc. My EHP with CTC under 35% is about 13k higher than with Black Heart non-proc'd, and Heart's internal CD is 45sec, and it's procs just happen when they happen.

I'm not even talking about the dodge component of the trinket here- the logic works even if you ignore it. Of course that 152 dodge is going to slightly help me avoid the damage in those crucial 5 seconds while I'm under 35% HP and LK is hitting fast and hard.

Yes, there are a couple trinkets that would do better than CTC for me, but I do not have them yet. I do not believe that the triumph badge trinket is a better substitute for CTC in this fight, for me, and certainly the Black Heart is not better. My other trinket will be skeleton key of course.

Wish me luck!

~X

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I'm going to go with a 4% melee damage reduction when I'm under 35% and he's hitting me 100% faster, giving my healers a little time and forgivability to get me up. And the CTC buff lasts 5sec longer than the LK's haste buff, so it should be easy. Glyph can't be that situational, and Black Heart is only better if it happens to proc. My EHP with CTC under 35% is about 13k higher than with Black Heart non-proc'd, and Heart's internal CD is 45sec, and it's procs just happen when they happen.
Let's just look at these numbers for giggles.....***warning: napkin math*** At 71k health, 35% is going to be 24850. I can't remember exactly how hard he hits... but I seem to remember about two 16k hits in less than a second... so that is 32k damage (after my mitigation) before a healer could possibly get a heal off unless you are lucky. So using that.... you are looking at 4% damage reduction, which is roughly 1280 damage off that 32k.... which is ~30000... and you are at 24850 already?

Stamina will give your healers time to react, armor will make you easier on their mana. The LK hits like a truck, there is no guarantee you will eat a soul reaper and the trinket will proc because there is a good chance it will be on it's internal cooldown. You want max EH and external cooldowns. ie: Shield wall the first, Pain supress the second, hand of salv/sac (can't remember exactly) the third, then you should have your shield wall again maybe... if not trinket/last stand. That will keep you alive, not a single trinket and a "hope" that it will work.