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Thread: Too much Defense??

  1. #1
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    Too much Defense??

    ok my friend told me I was getting too much defense from gear. and that Defense has a diminishing return. is this true?? Can you really have too much Defense? I was at 575, I got Boots of knightly upheaval, and I actually threw on a DPS chest just to test it out. and I am still over cap but with that i am at 547.

    if Defense does have a Diminishing return.. what is it?
    I hope he is full of crap to be honest.

  2. #2
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    540 is your minimum defence to be uncrittable. Anything above that contributes (very well) to your avoidance.

    If you are a DK it buffs your IBF all the way up to 600 defence.

    Most people in good gear are fairly solidly above 540 without making special gear choices now.

  3. #3
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    Once you hit 540 defense with gear, you shouldn't be Gemming or Enchanting for Defense. Being over 540 as a result of defense on gear isn't a bad thing though.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMooky View Post
    Once you hit 540 defense with gear, you shouldn't be Gemming or Enchanting for Defense. Being over 540 as a result of defense on gear isn't a bad thing though.
    ^

    Defense does suffer from diminishing returns too, there's a thread around here somewhere or maybe it was maintankadin that did a breakdown of the DRs of def. versus dodge and parry and such. But ya, it's still good, being over 540 isn't BAD, as long as you're not sacking EHP for it. (Notable exception: tanking H-Anub'Arak25 adds)
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  5. #5
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    Yeah, it suffers from DI but you can't really avoid it (nor any reason to). As long as you're not itemizing for defense, you're fine. It includes almost all gear.

  6. #6
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    Yes, Defense Rating has diminishing returns, but how can any good tank not go way over 540?

    When I first hit 80, I was nowhere near 540. I got some better gear and put in some gems, and after a little while I finally got to 540. Well guess what? Before I knew it, I had some Emblem of Triumph pieces and was past 540. The after a couple of Frost gear upgrades I am at 562, with only a few stam/def gems - all the rest are straight stam or exp/stam gems. I also have no defense enchants, so it's just straight gear and I'm well over 540. It's just inevitable for any good tank. Trading for dps gear gets you better dps and a def rating closer to 540, but you'll lose defense attributes like dodge/parry, and any other dodge/parry/block/armor buffs that your tank gear gives you. It's just not worth it.

  7. #7
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    Short version i live by, if def comes, so be it, if you have a choice, go with other mitigation stats.
    Winter is coming

  8. #8
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    from what I found out from asking around so far.. that Defense will start getting Diminishing Return at around 552ish. and I have tried out that DPS chest piece in Heroics, and in a couple Raids. and I found I take constant damage but not Spiky Damage. like before I was like this.. I would Avoid avoid avoid avoid then Bam Bam Bam like 2-4 quick hard blows. and now I am more avoid hit avoid avoid hit avoid hit avoid etc. and I thumbed through Altas loot and I found some Tanking pieces that have no Defense Rating, T10 Chest Piece, the 264 Legs Crafted, the 264 Gun in ICC, hopefully I will get those soon enough.

    I am kinda blown away that this is working.. but I was asking healers on how it is to heal me.. and they found it easier to heal me now then before. (I didn't tell them I changed my chest piece until after) they Explained how i was taking damage before. and how it was Spiky.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    Short version i live by, if def comes, so be it, if you have a choice, go with other mitigation stats.
    This is actually incorrect.

    In ICC-level gear, Defense provides more avoidance point-for-point than Dodge or Parry rating and suffers less from diminishing returns due to the spreading effect.

    Defense is never, ever bad. It's like saying Dodge is bad. Any time Dodge or Parry is good, Defense is just as good or better.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  10. #10
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    Defense is a great stat for all avoidance and block mitigation. If you really want to get the socketbonus for 12 STAM and you do not need hit rating. gem for 10 defense/15 stamina. Defense is a great stat and can give.

    DK are different on the other hand. DKs have an abundance of defense usually from the DK enchants,. It also does not benefit from it AS much as warriors of paladins, but it really is a chunk full of avoidance.

    I do thing that you should still not GEM for defense for the sake of defense unless you're under defense cap.

  11. #11
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    Ok.. I think your misunderstanding my Post. First.. I'm not dumb I know what Defense does, yes prevents Crits and at 540 is it 5%. and also adds to you Avoidance Block, dodge and parry. all good.

    but.. you ever hover your mouse over your Defense? do you see on the very bottom? Before Diminishing Returns..

    my Question is.. If you have a insane amount of Defense.. does it fail you? because of the Diminishing Returns??

    Diminishing Returns is effected by all things too not just Players. jump on a mage and sheep the hell out of a npc somewhere.. it will break sheep like not even a second later or something.

    and yes... I am not gemming Defense.. I have too much as it is that is the point of the post.

    this Post is not about Defense being bad(I know it isn't). it is about Diminishing returns. does anyone have a real answer about it?

    Defense is good... Diminishing Returns... BAD..

  12. #12
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    Well sure diminishing returns are bad, you're not getting the "full effect" but that's because people were being able to stack avoidance stacks to 102.4% (see: rogues at the end of BC solo tanking mother sharahaz). But the diminishing returns scale only gets bad at just absolutely ridiculous levels. In an H-Anub25 add tanking set, you typically gem full defense and get in the 600ish defense range and you still get significant gains from it. I don't remember exactly where the DR curves drop off, but I assume what you're saying is, "are the diminishing returns so bad that I'm getting absolutely nothing from this defense that I have." And the answer is no, the DRs aren't that bad yet.

    Also: to clarify the difference between stat DRs and mechanics like sheep. A melee stat DR doesn't mean that the more dodge you have and say you dodge 3 times in a row, then it's on DR and you can't dodge any more, it doesn't mean that AT ALL. Now if that wasn't what you are assuming and you just thought, "wow, that's dumb." then I agree, but you have to understand that I play on Maelstrom, a PvP-RP server, we have our own special brand of stupid and people actually think that is true. It's not. All it means is that point for point your defense gives you less avoidance at higher levels, but it still is giving you something, a fairly significant something, and is definitely still adding value.

    No, you don't have too much defense, stop worrying about it.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  13. #13
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    Defense is the best way to avoid diminish returns, which is why it overtakes Dodge and Parry later on in terms of pure avoidance gains. Due to spreading out the gain across all the DR-applicable stats, you have a lower total in each and thus avoid larger DR losses.

    e.g. it's better to have 1000 Defense Rating than 1000 Dodge Rating, as you would be in ridiculous DR territory with 1000 Dodge Rating while the Defense Rating would be spreading out its gains across Miss, Dodge, Parry, and Block and have a much lower loss from DR.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  14. #14
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    Agg's post pretty much sum's it up. Bascially, put the tanking chest piece back on, take off the dps one. Yes you may have hit the diminishing returns of the defense, however its is still VERY useful (like someone said, you dont start really getting killed by diminishing returns until about 600 defense). Before a recent upgrade i was sitting at 572 defense... WAY over the cap. However, this extra defense also serves another very useful purpose. You may never know when a useful piece of gear pops out of no where that you get your hands on, and it might have low if any defense on it at all but is a HUGE EH upgrade for you. Ex. when i made the crafted ICC pants, extra armor and stam was a huge EH upgrade for me, however it has no defense on it. Thus i took a pretty big defense hit but was still a good ways over the cap at 548.

  15. #15
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    The other thing to remember is this: diminishing returns were put on the gain from avoidance ratings because pure avoidance has increasing returns.

    In fact, the DR curve implemented more or less only serves to offset the increasing returns that having a 1:1 ratio would do. There is generally no reason to care about DR on avoidance at all. It's unavoidable and hardly impacts gearing--other than the fact that Defense has an edge due to its 'spread out' mechanic.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  16. #16
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    thank you I was really worried about if getting too much over and it was hurting me more then helping me.

  17. #17
    No it isnt bad to have tons of defense. I didnt see anyone mention it, but Defense rating gives the BEST avoidance stat. Chance to be missed. The more defense, the more your chance to be missed goes up. I think the most recent theory is that the chance to be missed cap is 15% but i dont think you'll be reaching that unintentionally. Especially not with the BS crafted not having defense rating.

  18. #18
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    To sum this up;

    1. Def is allways good to have, it scales better with diminishing returns than specific things like block or dodge. (?)
    2. Don't enchant or gem för def if you are over 540? (Isn't this slightly contradictive? is Sta allways the way to go with gems?)

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