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Thread: Dungeon Warrior Tanking - AOE

  1. #1

    Dungeon Warrior Tanking - AOE

    I just did my first dungeon in Cataclysm, and was not too impressed by the changes to our tanking style. I am not sure if it is just me, or if a lot of things are not working yet.

    I tried a few different ways of controlling AOE groups, with everything just about failing completely. While yes I had a high dps group, I found it extremely hard to keep aggro on... well almost anything more than two mobs.

    The first thing I tried was the old tab ability tab ability approach. I would charge in, SW, TC, then start tabbing my way around the group. Before I could get to the third mob he would be off me! I figured they must have changed some things therefore I need to change my tanking strategy. The next thing I tried was Cleave and TC spam... which neither of them worked. Cleave nor TC seem to hit hard enough to be "AOE buttons".

    So my question is this:
    Have you tanked dungeons in Alpha/Beta? And if so, what are you approaches to AOE tanking?

  2. #2
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    Use CC, don't AoE? I think it's possible that blizzard is trying to FORCE us to use CC simply by making AoE tanking non-feasible. If we can throw up a tclap/shockwave to get initial aggro then have cc's go up and everyone focus fires down adds one at a time, You wouldn't need to have aoe threat moves so much anymore.

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  3. #3
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    That's going to be a fine line to walk if that's the case. We all agree that Wrath's effective removal of CC at all was a loss. On the other hand, I doubt anybody wants to return to the days of TBC instances where dps classes w/o spammable CC were persona non grata. (Shattered Halls with a non-pally tank, no hunter, and no mage anyone?)

  4. #4
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    They probably made thunderclap even more pitiful than swipe when they removed the cooldown. Not really surprising from blizzard.

  5. #5
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    Threat is also broken right now. Best you may try, things are still going to be awkward for a while. Give it time.

    On top of that, expect Kaze's wisdom to be spot-on. The desire is that you *don't* blindly run through instances grabbing everything at once and just aoe storming it down. At least not until you well out-gear it.
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  6. #6
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    I fear for the tanks & healers in Cataclysm. Their job is already stressful and now tanks can't hold onto aggro without 2-3 CC and healers can't keep a party topped off without going OOM mid-fight.

    Coupled with a legion of "gogogo" DPS who will vote-kick any tank who "refuses to AOE tank" and any healer who "refuses to keep the group healed" and this is going to lead to record lows in capable tank & healer population.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belak View Post
    . On the other hand, I doubt anybody wants to return to the days of TBC instances where dps classes w/o spammable CC were persona non grata. (Shattered Halls with a non-pally tank, no hunter, and no mage anyone?)
    You just described the most fun times tanking in TBC.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    You just described the most fun times tanking in TBC.
    F*** that you just described why I refused to do heroics unless absolutely manditory in TBC. MGT made me want to shoot myself.
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  9. #9

    Tanking in WOW

    Using CC means using strategy. When Blizzard changed that in WLK it made the game easy to play for lazy people who did not want to put any thought into the game and just spam buttons and not use their brain to think of the best tactics to complete a fight. I am glad that Blizzard is bringing back CC. So that means all you lazy Tanks and DPS'ers "lol" are going to have to pay attention once again use a thought process on how to best navigate through a fight. Just my oppinion and I know everyone has one.

  10. #10
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    Ya, but why can't they do that for boss fights instead of trash? Trash is supposed to be mindless, it's a time sink is what it is. I see no reason why doing it quickly and AoEing it is bad. Maybe a little CC here and there, but the amount of CC required in places like MGT was just stupid.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  11. #11
    I do agree with a little CC here and there. Maybe not as much as was in MGT, but using CC on trash before a boss fight can also be useful in measuring the groups ability as they progress through the instance to get them ready for the Boss fight or just let them know from the start they are not ready, so they don’t waste time getting to a Boss fight the group does not have the aptitude or the gear/ability to down yet. “YET” being the key word. Through failure comes success.
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  12. #12
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    Huh. I really enjoyed MGT because it was one of the few instances that made it an actual challenge to get to the bosses. i.e. the entire instance was a challenge, not just the boss. As long as the rewards are in line, I hope they do more of those kinds of instances.
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  13. #13
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    The problem with requiring CC is that it puts the onus on 2-4 players instead of on one -- the tank. When I tank, I want to control everything; having to CC is gonna drive me nuts.

    But you take the good with the bad, of course. At least I'll be able to shout my head off at useless DPSers.
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  14. #14
    Thanks for the input guys. We used as much CC as we had, but as it was a random dungeon PUG we only had a mage for true CC (we had a rogue, but he could not find his sap button apparently). I agree that we need to see less of this AOE fest that is Wrath, but needing every mob but two CC'd leads to pure DPS classes without CC to be shunned in instances.

    With the implementation of random dungeons/heroics, we can not make sure that we have enough CC for a dungeon, like we did in MGT and SH (non-pally tank, pre-warrior AOE buff). It IS good to know that threat is awkward right now for others, not just me though. I will keep playing around with different techniques, while keeping in mind that things are far from finished.

    My hopes and dreams are that we return to a middle ground in between pure CC instances and an AOE-fest. I enjoy having to tab target and keep track of multiple target's threat, but having on AOE button to spam makes tanking boring. Here's hoping for tanking to become a challenging game again!

  15. #15
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    See I think its great that they are implementing CC again into the PVE world, but again its trash, like people said before me its supose to be mindless, now if they have boos encounters like in MGT the boss fight where CC does make the difference thats great. But its also has to be kept in mind, now we are dealing with an auto search group for these dungeons and sometimes it could lead to a poor group of very few CCs. Maybe if could divide it into like say mindless trash and then some more boss like trash where CC is needed; like some kind of OS thing.

  16. #16
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    I'm not in the beta but to come back to the original questions:

    1) Thunderclap has a flat damage value now which *should* scale with Vengeance eventually (it's not now) but not longer scales with AP or crit (maybe). Or at least that is the speculation.

    2) Blizzard is still out on exactly what they want to do with cleave.

    3) And as Satorri pointed out threat is all kinds of not right at the moment.

  17. #17
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    The thing about returning to CC like in TBC is it'll never be that way again because every class just about has some form of CC. Even if the base ability still existed back then, several are less restricted to mob type.

    rogue: sap
    mage: sheep
    hunter: trap
    lock: fear
    druid: root/sleep
    priest: mc (seriously underestimated)
    shaman: hex
    paladin: repentence (tanks/healers have hoj still)
    warrior: can OT caster
    dknight: ditto

    The ability for a fury warrior and unholy/frost dk to tank caster mobs is often under-appreciated as well. Even in raid content there is lots of caster mobs that just get tanked by plate. Lock cc is the most annoying to deal with and its still doable with pulling the mobs back so the fear doesn't go too wild.

    I horribly miss CC skill in WotLK cause that was part of what made good dps. Saying that I still wouldn't want packs like Shattered Halls and MGT. Just because it made the place go too slow. Pugs would be less viable as well and I like the random dungeon feature. I hope Blizzard will stick to mostly packs of 5 where 2 are CC'd and 3 are tanked. And of course once you auto gear the place, it'd be nice if aoe was viable for guild made groups if not pugs as well.

  18. #18
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    I enjoy taking forever to do dungeons, it's good that they make it tedious again because people think clicking polymorph takes ridiculous skill.

    AoE threat should be very easy, GC wanted aoe tanking to be dangerous to the tank, not the dps.

  19. #19
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    I'm okay with complex trash pulls if the number of trash pulls are small. If the current model is Naxxramas, I'd like to see something more like Ulduar.

    For example, one guy spams a ridiculous shadow damage AoE, and one guy has an aura that increases shadow damage dealt by 400%, and one guy spams Sunder Armor on the tank, and there are a bunch of little guys who all do heinous melee damage.

    If you try to just AoE these down, you're going to get Sundered to zero and the little guys will butcher you, and the shadow guy will blow everybody else up. So you CC one of the shadow guys (maybe which one changes based on the particular CC you have) and you either CC the guy who does Sunder and AoE down the little guys, or you pull out all the stops and you nuke down Captain Sunder before you get stacked up too high.

    I think the model going forward is going to be the hill in Pit of Saron. If you're not overgeared, and you don't take any steps to make it easier, you're going to get destroyed. But if you do even one or two very minor things (like dispel the disease, or stunlock one of the casters, or sheep the Deathbringer) it rapidly becomes no big deal.

    I think the trouble that people are having with threat is not intended -- Ghostcrawler has already stated that they don't want AoE threat to be a problem, they want tank survivability to be the gatekeeper on AoE pulls.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takku View Post
    See I think its great that they are implementing CC again into the PVE world, but again its trash, like people said before me its supose to be mindless
    When did people start thinking trash was supposed to be mindless? Mindless trash makes things boring while interesting trash that needs to be taking out TACTICALLY can really bring up the fun factor of an instance... as long as its not to the point where its absurdly over tuned or too long.

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