DK Tank styles

[Kahtee]

Hey guys,

So here is my DK tank- http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ord&cn=Lucalis

As you can see, im currently 2h frost and I love it. However, I am wondering if I should switch in favor of blood instead. Im not much a DW frost person so I dont think I would really consider that. I love frost because of its ease at AOE threat but Ive heard blood is much better for single target

With ICC having alot of AOE trash pulls, it would make sense to be frost to AOE tank, but blood, as I said is very good for bosses so I guess im kinda torn.

Pro and cons of both would help my decision alot, as well as what you guys think! Can you still AOE tank easily as blood?

Thanks!

[Wrathydied]

I posted in your other thread about your spec, but I'll move to the discussion here!

I don't know how blood compares to 2H frost for single target as I haven't been 2H frost since my first raid where I found the threat to be horrible. Dual Wield frost is out and out the best spec for threat at the moment, and as you're a fan of frost I would suggest giving it a go if you can get your hands on a decent pair of weapons (Frost Giant's Cleaver is perfect, for example). It's also a more involved spec to play than blood.

I'm currently MTing as blood. I switched from DW frost for heroic encounters as the healers found me tricky to keep up at times and I gain a lot of health, better self healing and a much nicer minor cooldown and they've found it much smoother since. My single target TPS is very good, but it does struggle a bit with aoe. I can keep stuff on me but my DPS are impossible! The bad AoE complain if they pull agro single target DPSing and the good AoE complain pulling agro while AoE DPSing. That's trash though, and if they die I mock them. Blood is also very very very easy to play. Which if you're leading the raid or whatever leaves you a lot of spare brain to keep an eye on the fight and what everyone's doing and make sure there's nothing going wrong.

Out of interest why would you not want to go DW frost? Do you just like having a massive axe?

Could you not dual spec frost/blood and use one on trash and the other on bosses?

[Selene]

for trash unless it is giving you issues, you could use a dps spec and use tank gear.

I use a DW Frost DPS spec for trash in ICC, but a Blood spec for bosses.

[Kahtee]

Wrath, I guess I just dont like DW frost because yeah, I like my 2handers and since you have to use 6 skill pts to make it viable, it cuts alot of other things out. I cant dualspec because my other spec is for dps/pvp so I only have 1 to mess with for now.

I suppose if DW frost is good enough i might consider it. Is it decent for 25m ICC non heroic? our server kinda sucks atm so I dont seem myself getting into a heroic raid anytime soon. Should i go both tank weps, or get 2 dps ones like the ones you linked?

As for blood, what rotation do you use for AOE and single target tanking?

[Wrathydied]

Fair enough, I didn't find it cut too much out and had a lot of success with it. Remember of those 6 points you currently have 2 in 2h spec, so you only really need to find four. If I were tweaking your spec in to a DW one I'd probably move it to something like http://www.wowhead.com/talent#j0EZhxe0AbI0c0fuzAo0g dropping Two Handed Spec, Deathchill, Endless Winter and Hungering Cold.

I must confess to not having tried 2H frost in quite a while and so it may have changed, and I do know 2H tanks that do it pretty well but IMO dual wield is just superior. You get basically everything you get from 2h but with more threats.

My venture in to it coincided with the Icy Touch buff so it was probably compounded but the threat is absolutely mental. I'm pretty sure a decent part of it is inherent in the frost rotation and how much easier it is to get Icy Touches out and how much nicer it is not spending your frost runes to make the death runes.

I had absolutely no problem in 25man ICC normal with it. I shouldn't have had any problems with the heroics either but my gear was, perhaps, slightly behind where it should have been and the healers preferred healing me in blood, they found it easier so I obliged. I really would be surprised if you had any trouble with it just due to switching your spec to DW instead of 2H. Your far more likely to struggle with bad pug healers if you're pugging, or potentially gear, though you should be alright with that too.

RE: weapons. I see a lot of frost tanks running around with 1.6 tanking weapons in both hands and it causes me much anguish (though not as much as the blood tank I saw doing the same... my server's not great either!). If you're building an avoidance set by all means take a tanking weapon or two, I had one for just such fights, but in my opinion you should do it like a DK. DPS weapons with the tanking runeforge- it's how we were designed and since our strikes hit with our offhands as well when DW spec we benefit enormously from having two slow weapons- 2.6ers are ideal. I also used Rune of Razorice on my offhand weapon and Rune of the Nerubian Carapace on my mainhand weapon. It doesn't matter hugely which way round it is, I don't think, but if you have the defence to spare razorice is an utterly ridiculous threat boost.

For Blood I used to use the standard rotation and then the IT buff happened. I now try to maximise my ITs instead of my HSs so I go something like IT -> PS -> DS -> HS -> HS |DS -> IT -> IT -> HS -> HS| and loop.

Sorry if my post was a bit long and meandering, I'm dizzy with tiredness. Hope it still managed to be vaguely helpful and constructive! I guess I'll find out in the morning..

[Kahtee]

Well, you are slowly starting to convince me to switch to DW! I love frost tanking and the way it plays. Havnt done ICC tanking though so I dont really know how my current 2H spec holds up. I think if I have threat problems ill stay frost 2H until i get my hands on 2 good dps 1 handers then i will switch it. As long as it will hold good enough threat on single target and AOE as well! Theres no diffrence in rotation is there between 2h and DW?

LOL at DW blood tank!


Yeah dont worry about your post being long, it is definatly helping me SO much!

EDIT: Woot! Got tank legs from 10m voa!

[Selene]

Regarding weapons for DW Tanking.
I would say get both a set of Tank Weapons and a set of Slow DPS weapons.

Slow DPS weapons are great for threat.
Tank weapons are great for tanking stats.

I personally used Tank weapons without any real issue, and I have noticed that a number of DW DKs in raids are using Tank Weapons now.

[Theotherone]

Well, you are slowly starting to convince me to switch to DW! I love frost tanking and the way it plays. Havnt done ICC tanking though so I dont really know how my current 2H spec holds up. I think if I have threat problems ill stay frost 2H until i get my hands on 2 good dps 1 handers then i will switch it. As long as it will hold good enough threat on single target and AOE as well! Theres no diffrence in rotation is there between 2h and DW?

LOL at DW blood tank!


Yeah dont worry about your post being long, it is definatly helping me SO much!

EDIT: Woot! Got tank legs from 10m voa!

2h Frost works just fine in ICC; in fact it works just fine anywhere; there is no reason why, if you're Frost, you have to DW. I use a few different 2h'ers just for variety; my Armory has Shadow's Edge equipped, but I also will use the http://www.wowhead.com/item=50415; I have Oxheart and Ramaldani's also that I play around with.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...cn=Theotherone

[Kahtee]

2h Frost works just fine in ICC; in fact it works just fine anywhere; there is no reason why, if you're Frost, you have to DW. I use a few different 2h'ers just for variety; my Armory has Shadow's Edge equipped, but I also will use the http://www.wowhead.com/item=50415; I have Oxheart and Ramaldani's also that I play around with.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...cn=Theotherone

Alright sweet. What kind of rotation do you use for single target and aoe?

[Goros]

I use 2H frost for ICC10HM's & ICC25 without issue, and have better AOE threat and better single target threat than any other tank I've run with.

Here is the spec and my armory .

This gives me the ability to keep D&D down 95% of the time on trash and with runestrike macro'd into my abilities along with IT spam, no tank can keep up with my threat (to the point where they won't even try to take initial aggro) and it lets the DPS go full speed without having to worry about watching their threat in the fights. During tank swaps you just have to stop using powers and white strike only until your time to taunt comes up, or you'll pull the boss off again. It also lets the tank that pulls off of you have threat way above the dps for the duration of the fight. 4 Million threat on Saurfang isn't unheard of, with the dps just breaking 1 Mil and doing 12k dps by the end of the fight.

The extra points you take out of survival talents for the "flair" of DW frost tanking pretty much makes it fail. Not completely untenable, but it adds stuff that your healers really shouldn't have to deal with. Go to 25 man and hardmodes with the best spec (best threat & survivability) you can. Don't go in and make extra work for your healers so you can have flavor.

Single target on a bossfight - IT IT PS BT IT ERW IT IT IT IT BS and then IT>Oblit>BS>PS as priority list with FS as dump when RS isn't up. RS is macro'd into BS, Oblit, and PS.

Trash AOE - D&D, Deathchill (unless KM is up) & HB, BB, BT, BB, ERW BB BB D&D rinse & repeat.

[Kahtee]

I use 2H frost for ICC10HM's & ICC25 without issue, and have better AOE threat and better single target threat than any other tank I've run with.

Here is the spec and my armory .

This gives me the ability to keep D&D down 95% of the time on trash and with runestrike macro'd into my abilities along with IT spam, no tank can keep up with my threat (to the point where they won't even try to take initial aggro) and it lets the DPS go full speed without having to worry about watching their threat in the fights. During tank swaps you just have to stop using powers and white strike only until your time to taunt comes up, or you'll pull the boss off again. It also lets the tank that pulls off of you have threat way above the dps for the duration of the fight. 4 Million threat on Saurfang isn't unheard of, with the dps just breaking 1 Mil and doing 12k dps by the end of the fight.

The extra points you take out of survival talents for the "flair" of DW frost tanking pretty much makes it fail. Not completely untenable, but it adds stuff that your healers really shouldn't have to deal with. Go to 25 man and hardmodes with the best spec (best threat & survivability) you can. Don't go in and make extra work for your healers so you can have flavor.

Single target on a bossfight - IT IT PS BT IT ERW IT IT IT IT BS and then IT>Oblit>BS>PS as priority list with FS as dump when RS isn't up. RS is macro'd into BS, Oblit, and PS.

Trash AOE - D&D, Deathchill (unless KM is up) & HB, BB, BT, BB, ERW BB BB D&D rinse & repeat.

Thanks man, thats a big help! But for some reason I cant think what BT and ERW mean... i must be having a brain fart or something. I really think i need more hit, but i dont wanna gem it

[Katharsis]

for some reason I cant think what BT and ERW mean

Blood Tap and Empower Rune Weapon

[Katharsis]

I've noticed the responses being rather heavy on the Frost tanking side. Being a blood tank (and I used to be Frost), I figured I'd list a couple major perks of Blood over Frost.

- Self-Healing -- This, at least to me, has to be the largest perk. Being able to heal myself much of the time has been a real life-saver for me, especially during sticky situations where tank healers may be in trouble. With Rune Tap, it helps even more so. True, you can Death Strike in any spec, but it's 50% higher healing in Blood spec (i.e., 15% maximum health, instead of 10%), not to mention it's now part of your rotation anyway. The real trump card here is the current ICC health buff. This lets you heal for even higher the more it goes up.

- Vampiric Blood -- This, coupled with its glyph, is an amazing cooldown. To be able to boost your health by so much is fantastic. With the glyph, you can have this CD going about 25% of the time as well; AND, as with the above mentioned ICC buff, this CD scales keeps scaling higher, making it simply astounding. Compare this to the small amount of additional damage reduction that Unbreakable Armor gives you, and this is the clear winner of the two.

You may be wondering about aggro on trash. I personally have no problem at all holding AoE aggro. If you have 3/3 Morbidity then you can DnD more frequently, plus, you're Blood Boiling a lot already anyway.

[Wrathydied]

The extra points you take out of survival talents for the "flair" of DW frost tanking pretty much makes it fail. Not completely untenable, but it adds stuff that your healers really shouldn't have to deal with. Go to 25 man and hardmodes with the best spec (best threat & survivability) you can. Don't go in and make extra work for your healers so you can have flavor.

Which survival talents would those be? 2 Handed weapon specialisation? Wow, I can really see how that keeps you alive. Deathchill? Man that's saved my life so many times. Endless Winter? Ah yes, I forgot tanks stack Str not Sta. It adds nothing but threat. When dual wield frost I completely destroyed any other tank I came across for threat, especially 2H frost DKs, which were some way behind even blood DKs. I'm sure some of that is player skill and that 2H frost and blood aren't that far apart, but my DW frost seemed to be streets ahead of either. Regardless, you are empirically wrong. You don't have to drop any survival to go dual wield.

I've personally noticed a good 25% TPS drop since respeccing to blood. I would still heartily recommend trying DW frost over 2H frost. I personally much prefer it. If nothing else you might as well give it a go and see how it works out. It may be an improvement for you, it may not. Only way to know is to try.

Katharsis is also talking a lot of sense. As a cooldown I much much prefer Vampiric Blood to Unbreakable Armour. Sure, you only really get one way of using it but IMO it's a much more powerful "oh cock" button.

[llGaMell]

imo change to blood for tanking :P we all have to soon anyway .....

[Kahtee]

I've noticed the responses being rather heavy on the Frost tanking side. Being a blood tank (and I used to be Frost), I figured I'd list a couple major perks of Blood over Frost.

- Self-Healing -- This, at least to me, has to be the largest perk. Being able to heal myself much of the time has been a real life-saver for me, especially during sticky situations where tank healers may be in trouble. With Rune Tap, it helps even more so. True, you can Death Strike in any spec, but it's 50% higher healing in Blood spec (i.e., 15% maximum health, instead of 10%), not to mention it's now part of your rotation anyway. The real trump card here is the current ICC health buff. This lets you heal for even higher the more it goes up.

- Vampiric Blood -- This, coupled with its glyph, is an amazing cooldown. To be able to boost your health by so much is fantastic. With the glyph, you can have this CD going about 25% of the time as well; AND, as with the above mentioned ICC buff, this CD scales keeps scaling higher, making it simply astounding. Compare this to the small amount of additional damage reduction that Unbreakable Armor gives you, and this is the clear winner of the two.

You may be wondering about aggro on trash. I personally have no problem at all holding AoE aggro. If you have 3/3 Morbidity then you can DnD more frequently, plus, you're Blood Boiling a lot already anyway.

Yeah, I but I love frost tanking way more, the play style is awesome for me

[Kahtee]

Which survival talents would those be? 2 Handed weapon specialisation? Wow, I can really see how that keeps you alive. Deathchill? Man that's saved my life so many times. Endless Winter? Ah yes, I forgot tanks stack Str not Sta. It adds nothing but threat. When dual wield frost I completely destroyed any other tank I came across for threat, especially 2H frost DKs, which were some way behind even blood DKs. I'm sure some of that is player skill and that 2H frost and blood aren't that far apart, but my DW frost seemed to be streets ahead of either. Regardless, you are empirically wrong. You don't have to drop any survival to go dual wield.

I've personally noticed a good 25% TPS drop since respeccing to blood. I would still heartily recommend trying DW frost over 2H frost. I personally much prefer it. If nothing else you might as well give it a go and see how it works out. It may be an improvement for you, it may not. Only way to know is to try.

Katharsis is also talking a lot of sense. As a cooldown I much much prefer Vampiric Blood to Unbreakable Armour. Sure, you only really get one way of using it but IMO it's a much more powerful "oh cock" button.

2 dps weps yes?

[Kahtee]

imo change to blood for tanking :P we all have to soon anyway .....

Unfortuatly

[Wrathydied]

2 dps weps yes?

Yes, 2.6 speed if possible. Nerubian Carapce on one and Razorice on the other if you have the def to spare. It's so OP- +10% damage to your icy touches and frost strikes. Om nom nom delicious threat.

Unfortuatly

Agreed, I love having different playstyles while still being able to do what I enjoy; tanking.

[Goros]

Which survival talents would those be? 2 Handed weapon specialisation? Wow, I can really see how that keeps you alive. Deathchill? Man that's saved my life so many times. Endless Winter? Ah yes, I forgot tanks stack Str not Sta. It adds nothing but threat. When dual wield frost I completely destroyed any other tank I came across for threat, especially 2H frost DKs, which were some way behind even blood DKs. I'm sure some of that is player skill and that 2H frost and blood aren't that far apart, but my DW frost seemed to be streets ahead of either. Regardless, you are empirically wrong. You don't have to drop any survival to go dual wield.

Tell that to HM Sindy when you are solo tanking and she parry hastes and kills you instantly. I'll stand in there at 20-25 stacks till she's dead (with the other tank DPSING) and not worry about it.

I tried DW tanking, got squishier, and went back to 2H. My healers (Druids, Priests - both holy and disc, and pally) all told me it was harder to heal and damage was spikier. Coincidence? Not since I was using 2 tank specs at the time and switching back and forth to test it. Also, please show me a 1H dps weapon with 2-3 blue sockets on it to stack stam in? Or how you reach into blood or unholy to get extra "usable" talents that help you tank (like morbidity?). Strength and AP = threat, and while stam is shiny I don't see any stam in the frost DW tree.

I agree that the basics don't change, but I'd rather move points into talents that get me something other than flair. As you say, it might be a skill level thing, but I haven't seen a successful DW frost tank maintanking hardmodes. Doesn't mean it can't happen.